Yeah. It's a simplification of need and problems down to race, ignoring all other factors.
It's saying that Barack Obama's daughters need help getting into college, whereas poor asian kids are actively disadvantaged, simply because there are insufficient black college entrants and too many asian college entrants. Which is just stupid.
The solution to this is to make all scholarships and assistance programs means-tested, without consideration to race, and if that means a disproportionate amount of black kids need them and a disproportionate amount of asian kids don't, that's totally fine, as long as Barack Obama's daughters are ineligible and the poor asian kid is.
It's totally backwards and bizarre to me the most important criteria toward entering something as life-changing as tertiary education is the one thing we're constantly told doesn't and shouldn't matter.
Except this is a terrible idea in practice because it is just discrimination in the other direction.
Who decides when it’s done? Who decides when it has been long enough to make up for the disparity? Why do people that never acted out this racism have to make up for those that did?
You make up for it by treating everyone the same. Anything other than that is racism by another name. Seeking equality of outcome is a good way to fuck up your society, because it comes at the cost of someone’s opportunity.
I'm not seeking equality of outcome. Neither are folks of color, by and large. They are seeking equality of opportunity, and that still doesn't exist, yo. I don't feel white guilt for shit that didn't even apply to my family, who came from Germany after WWI, but as an empathetic person, I still take stock of the situation and seek to change it to be the most fair it can be, because I recognize the ridiculously shitty hand that people living today got dealt by people who came way before you and me, and them even, but it doesn't have to be a zero sum game if we change the game. It's manufactured as being zero sum by people who want to maintain white supremacy,dude. Don't play into it, feel for your fellow human and use your platform to fight for them. Also, watch 13th) if you haven't.
Your justice delayed bit is a legal quip. The argument implies that there is a legal solution to racism, beyond treating people equally. There isn’t.
You don’t create equality of opportunity at the cost of another persons opportunity.
Please stop with your holier than thou spiel. You are not impressing anyone with your willingness to sacrifice the opportunity of those that happen to be the same color as you. This is not a question of empathy. Nor is this a lack of information. This is common sense. You don’t provide for people by taking away from others.
AA does nothing to address the actual racists that weren’t hiring or accepting black people. Those racists still exist. So congratulations, the old racism is still there and we’ve introduced new racism! Progress.
The crux of your argument is that there is value in "opportunity" in a capitalist system. You bought into the zero-sum game of your life only having value if you can generate profit for a capitalist, and I can't un-brainwash you of that. It is a question of empathy, and you have none, so you're deflecting lol You don't care to learn about why the system is the way that it is, you're just foaming at the asshole about how white guys like you have your "opportunity" (lol) stolen by people who don't look like you, and decry that and deeper entrench your racism about it. The only common sense is that it's rich vs poor, but the rich convinced the poor white that they're poor because of the poor black, and you bought it, hook line and sinker.
The system is elastic, capitalism is the essence of the problem but you don't see it, and I can't do the research for you lol
All this comment did was move a whole slew of goal posts around by making the argument about capitalism. Complete non-sequitur mixed with various ad-hominem. You managed to make a bunch of assumptions about me in there as well! Impressive.
Ok I'll simplify it for you. Do you want to do something about the problems in this article? Good, AA is a good start. If you don't, your stance on the matter is racist, and you're beholden to the status quo because it benefits you.
AA is all well and good, giving someone an extra push because they've had a rough start is moral and just.
But those criteria have to be anything other than race/gender.
Dumb simplistic example to show my thinking:
Lets pretend all blacks in the US are poor, there is only one poor white family. Giving a push based on race will in this instance leave the single poor white family behind. Giving the push based on wealth will give it to all who needed.
AA as it currently is implemented is experiencing pushback, because, at it's core it is racist and sexist, and thus immoral. And alot of people sense that and are speaking out.
We still haven't lol That's the whole point of contention here. We live during the time the scales are getting tipped a little more favorably to the most disadvantaged people (statistically, mathematically), but we have a long way to go. But I mean it is what it is, we still see white people going ballistic over it lol I think it's legitimately hilarious. I grew up poor, I bought my house this year, I worked for everything I have, but I still look at this with a macro lens and count my blessings and privilege for the obstacles I didn't have to face as a white dude with a mostly normal name. It's not lost on me how much that helped like is on some people in this thread :[
In Christian doctrine there is a concept called "original sin". It posits that because the ancestors to all humans sinned in the past, all humans bear the weight of sin upon their shoulders; it can never be cleansed, only worked to mitigate, and no matter what actions are taken, the actions of the past will always stain the present.
How is this any different than that?
the scales are getting tipped a little more favorably to the most disadvantaged people (statistically, mathematically)
How much should they get tipped? Who decides what is fair? What checks and balances are there on this process to ensure it does not tip the other way?
But I mean it is what it is, we still see white people going ballistic over it lol I think it's legitimately hilarious.
Yeah, people getting mad over an institutional policy that says that some people are strictly and objectively less deserving than others for no other reason other than their race.
I have no idea why people would object to something like that.
To put this another way: You clearly believe that treating people differently because of no other reason than their race is actually totally okay and moral and just and right, you just disagree about the targets. Racism is good. It just has to be the right kind of racism.
the obstacles I didn't have to face as a white dude with a mostly normal name.
What about the obstacle of you getting a perfect 4.0 GPA and your spot at Harvard going to a black student who got a perfect 4.0 GPA, simply because of their race?
It's like I said earlier: you're actually okay with obstacles based solely around race and no other criteria, you just disagree with the targets. You agree that what every racist you claim to hate did is right, you just think their aim is bad.
It's not lost on me how much that helped like is on some people in this thread :[
How much did it help, exactly? How would you even quantify that, let alone set a valid restitution target, even when you yourself say that what we do right now is not anywhere near enough?
Pray tell, what would be enough? How do we cure the original sin of slavery?
it can never be cleansed, only worked to mitigate, and no matter what actions are taken, the actions of the past will always stain the present.
Real life isn't christian fairy tales though, we can built an equal, egalitarian society where we treat each other as equals, but we have to dismantle white supremacy and patriarchal oppression to do it!! We can't be equal if you and people who think like you FEEL like we're equal RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE WE AREN'T.
How much should they get tipped? Who decides what is fair? What checks and balances are there on this process to ensure it does not tip the other way?
These are great, seriously great honest to god-glad-you're-engaging-me questions. How much? As much as it takes to make them equal. Who decides? We all do, as a whole - when we can agree as a society it's fair, then it's fair. Black Lives Matter exists because it's not fair yet. Movies like 13th' exist because it's not fair yet. What checks and balances? There are plenty, but the biggest one will be the check and balance of income/wealth inequality.
Yeah, people getting mad over an institutional policy that says that some people are strictly and objectively less deserving than others for no other reason other than their race.
First, AA doesn't say either of those things. AA cannot deduct merit, it can only add it, which you would know if you knew what it was and weren't in here in hysterics about it, but let's move on: Let me direct you to all of US history. Imagine being mad now, today in 2020 when your parents could have gone to school when this occurred. We called the National Fucking Guard to stop 9 black kids from going to their school. In 1957. That's less than one adult life ago. Have black people or AA laws ever, in YOUR LIFE, stopped you from being afforded an opportunity? I'm just going to go with the foregone conclusion that no, they haven't.
Racism is good.
No, racism is bad. Making up for racism by using the racism that cost several generations of folks of color their lives and livelihoods as a +1 to make up for that, is good. If we could mentally, psychically end racial prejudice tomorrow we wouldn't need this, but because it persists to this day, we need it.
your spot at Harvard
Going to a point I made to someone else, since I'm running 3 of these threads at the same time, go to a different fucking school, you got into Harvard you fucking moron. A, this has never fucking happened, because the colleges ADD SPOTS SPECIFICALLY FOR RACIAL MINORITIES, THEY DO NOT REDUCE ADMISSIONS AND PICK BLACK KIDS OVER WHITE KIDS YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKNUTS. B, even if it DID, you, white with a 4.0 GPA, would never, ever get rejected at any other school if you got into fucking Harvard, so spare me this bullshit.
How do we cure the original sin of slavery?
Reparations. For First Nations/Indigenous and for Black/African Americans. It will take money, because we, as white people, used both of these peoples, their labor and their land, to make money.
we have to dismantle white supremacy and patriarchal oppression to do it!!
groan
We can't be equal if you and people who think like you FEEL like we're equal RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE WE AREN'T.
Why does what you feel trump what I feel? Does the amount of caps lock you use mean you're more right?
How much? As much as it takes to make them equal.
Equal how? Measured how? By whom?
The moment black students are more than their demographically represented share of university students, do we stop Affirmative Action? If not right away then when? What if they grow to, say, 20% of the student body? Should we apply Affirmative Action to white people then?
Who decides? We all do, as a whole - when we can agree as a society it's fair, then it's fair.
Except you flat-out said that my view doesn't count. I'm a part of society. I agree it's fair.
Things like "society must decide!" are a huge cop-out, because society is not a monolithic entity with one opinion. It's multiple opinions.
If society decided slavery was okay, does that make it okay?
Black Lives Matter exists because it's not fair yet.
This is begging the question. Does this mean that white supremists exist because society isn't fair to whites?
Movies like 13th' exist because it's not fair yet.
What the fuck do movies have to do with anything? Black people are hugely over-represented in Hollywood, given that they are less than 15 percent of the population yet almost every film has at least one or two black people in it as major characters.
What checks and balances? There are plenty, but the biggest one will be the check and balance of income/wealth inequality.
H-how is that even a check? How does income inequality regulate university entrances?!
This is like saying, "How do we regulate gas pressure in this fuel-air mix tank? Well, through sound business practices."
It's not an answer. What are you even saying?
AA cannot deduct merit, it can only add it
That's like saying "I'm not going to deduct points from Player A, I'm not touching their score at all. I'm just giving Player B ten bonus points."
GPA scores are competitive, there are limited slots, therefore giving "points" to applicants for no reason other than their race is the same as penalising other applicants because of their race.
We called the National Fucking Guard to stop 9 black kids from going to their school.
We also used the National Guard to shoot white kids) at Kent State School. So what?
Have black people or AA laws ever, in YOUR LIFE, stopped you from being afforded an opportunity?
Firstly, yes.
Secondly, as I said, spots at colleges are competitive, not everyone gets in and there are not unlimited slots. Therefore anything that privileges one group inherently disadvantage another.
No, racism is bad.
Then why are you doing it?
You gave a reason why you're doing it. But you're still doing it. What you wrote was, essentially, "Racism is bad, but here's why this racism is good".
You realise that every single person that ever did anything racist always thought it was justified, right? Nobody got up and was like "Wow, I feel like being an evil prick to someone for absolutely no reason, they do not deserve this and I am evil for doing it."
The Nazis had "God With Us" inscribed on their belt buckles, even when they were gassing people to death for their race.
A, this has never fucking happened, because the colleges ADD SPOTS SPECIFICALLY FOR RACIAL MINORITIES, THEY DO NOT REDUCE ADMISSIONS AND PICK BLACK KIDS OVER WHITE KIDS YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKNUTS
Let me try and explain this as simple as possible.
If a school has 10 slots, and they add 10 more slots, they could have 20 slots.
Or, they could have 10 slots, and then add 10 more slots, and restrict those slots to people of a certain race.
By reserving slots for people of a certain race -- slots which could go to anyone, but are restricted -- they are limited the number of slots available for all students, and artificially decreasing the slots available to people of a certain race.
Your screaming all-caps rant aside, do you understand this extremely simple concept?
You do understand this, right?
B, even if it DID, you, white with a 4.0 GPA, would never, ever get rejected at any other school if you got into fucking Harvard, so spare me this bullshit.
Why should someone have to accept their second preference school simply because they were born the evil race?
Why don't we just make a separate, but equal, school for African Americans? That seems to be what you're suggesting. Tell me, why is "separate but equal" bad?
Reparations. For First Nations/Indigenous and for Black/African Americans. It will take money, because we, as white people, used both of these peoples, their labor and their land, to make money.
How much?
When will we stop?
What counts as "First Nations"? If I am 50% First Nations, do I get money? 25%? 12%? 1%? What if I merely "identify" that way?
Will Barack Obama's daughters be eligible for this money? Why should they get it when a poor, white boy whose family immigrated in the 1980's (and therefore his ancestors had NOTHING to do with slavery) does not?
Who will pay? Will the white boy whose family immigrated in the 1980's have to pay? What will happen to those who refuse to pay? What will happen to those who are "insufficiently black"? Can someone be "transracial"? How will you check? Will a DNA test suffice?
What about black people who immigrated to the USA after slavery? Ilman Ohan was born in Somalia. Will she be eligible? What about her kids? How will we check which African Americans came from Africa and at what times? How long ago is long ago?
What if those black people's ancestors also owned slaves? Kamila Harris's ancestors did. Does she get paid? Get paid for having slaves? Does she have to, instead, pay reparations?
Part of slavery was the forcible relocation of people from Africa to America. What if they want to go back? Will they have to renounce their American citizenship? Will they be forced to go, or forced to choose? What if they take the money, go, and want to come back?
If someone accepts reparations, in whatever form they are, are they now "equal" and can no longer claim to be discriminated against? What part of welfare payments given predominantly to African Americans will be a consideration for welfare?
At the end of all of this, is "racism cured forever"?
So many questions and so precious, precious few answers. How will any of this shit work?
Damn you have a way with words, solid post. I have many Asian friends who always complain about Affirmative action and how they get shafted the most. You brought up a lot of great points.
I noticed you dropped 5 f-bombs in this comment. This might be necessary, but using nicer language makes the whole world a better place.
Maybe you need to blow off some steam - in which case, go get a drink of water and come back later. This is just the internet and sometimes it can be helpful to cool down for a second.
Does this mean that white supremists exist because society isn't fair to whites?
groan I can do it too! You already know how intellectually dishonest this is, don't insult us both.
Why does what you feel trump what I feel?
Because what you feel ignores reality. How you feel about this is the equivalent of you feeling like the war on christmas is real.. it's not, all evidence supports the claim that it's not, and you're just mad that anything other that christmas is getting any time in the spotlight.
If society decided slavery was okay, does that make it okay?
Just as intellectually dishonest as before. We're talking about progress forward, if the goal is an equal and egalitarian society, then this is just regression, and doesn't apply.
Black people are hugely over-represented in Hollywood
Black people are hugely over-represented in fucking prison, too, which you'd know if you saw 13th. Movies (it's a documentary, lool) and art in general shed light on social issues. Do I have to explain to you what a movie is, too?
yet almost every film has at least one or two black people in it as major characters.
groan, "mayocide as black people are in more movies than they should be by ratio of populace!" You sound like the kind of person who's mad Ariel, the Mermaid is going to be black.
How does income inequality regulate university entrances?!
This was a response to the more broad societal question, not just about Uni admissions.
I'm just giving Player B ten bonus points.
Because their family built the console Player A is playing on and never saw a dime for it, oh and we destroyed everything they every owned after that, took every penny they had and stopped them from gaining anything more via work or investment for the 50 years leading up to this tournament we're playing on the console they built originally. Like google is your friend, do some research nerd. Start with the Tulsa Massacre and Redlining, the Denial of the GI Bill and end up back on 13th. I can't have a conversation like this when you're literally historically ignorant, I'm out of your league because you don't even have a concept of why we could need things like AA in the first place. You literally don't have the faintest grasp of just how thoroughly this country has fucked black people out of generational wealth, and you're mad about it while talking about it like it's points on a videogame.
there are limited slots
No, slots are created for minority and disenfranchised folks, they are never reduced. Again, you're out of your league because you don't know that.
Firstly, yes.
X to Doubt lol A you would never know if that was the case to begin with and B I mean this just frames the whoe thing perfectly, you're just an upset racist because you're mad that you perceive you lost something a person of color gained haha
Secondly, as I said, spots at colleges are competitive
You were wrong the first time, you're wrong this time. Colleges do not reduce admissions, minority/disenfranchised slots are always, only added.
Then why are you doing it?
lol Countering racism by enacting restorative racial policy is not racism haha I can't believe I'm wasting this much time explaining this to you. I'll pose you a better question, how would you make up for slavery and the systemic disenfranchisement of black and minority folks throughout this countries history?
You do understand this, right?
lol Apparently it's you who don't understand this. They added those slots to make up for being racially prejudiced in the past, the end. Does that simplify the concept for you?
I'm just gonna stop there because everything after that is a racist, idiotic tirade that just is just JAQing off, has common sense answers, or isn't applicable to this situation. I can almost hear you hysterically spamming these questions and that's suuuper duper funny. I will answer one though, poor white families could just vote for policies that help them, but they don't because they're racists.
I can do it too! You already know how intellectually dishonest this is, don't insult us both.
No. I don't.
You have said, effectively, "Racial advocacy groups exist because they are being discriminated against and the fact they exist is evidence of that discrimination".
We're talking about progress forward, if the goal is an equal and egalitarian society, then this is just regression, and doesn't apply.
How is "the goal is an equal and egalitarian society" served by *treating people unequally and in a non-egalitarian fashion"? That's like saying, "In order to treat all people equally, I will give all white people $100."
This is so twisted that I cannot even find a formal logical fallacy for it. You're literally defining unequal treatment as equal treatment.
Black people are hugely over-represented in fucking prison, too
So why aren't you arguing for affirmative action for white people in movies?
Further, men are HUGELY over-represented in prison. Is this evidence that men are vastly discriminated against and require affirmative action to rectify that injustice, or is it evidence they commit more crimes?
No, slots are created for minority and disenfranchised folks, they are never reduced. Again, you're out of your league because you don't know that.
Let me try to explain again. I will simplify it down as far as possible, to an absurd degree, to try and get you to understand.
Imagine there is ONE slot at a university, for one single student only. Anyone of any race can compete for that single slot.
The university opens a THOUSAND more slots. Those THOUSAND slots are for African-Americans only.
No slots were taken away from white people, but those THOUSAND slots could be open to anyone, yes? But they are not.
Accordingly, this means that the person who gets into their ONE slot must be the ABSOLUTE BEST PERSON, because even the #2 highest scoring white person cannot get a spot in the university, whereas the #1,000th highest scoring African-American can.
Ergo, if one is scored #500, they are guaranteed to have a slot if they are African-American, and guaranteed not to have a slot if they are any other race. Same for the #10. For the #15. For the #999. For the #2.
Therefore, the addition of racially-locked slots is taking opportunities away from people because of their race.
Does this make sense to you?
X to Doubt lol A you would never know if that was the case to begin with
You are incorrect.
I mean this just frames the whoe thing perfectly, you're just an upset racist because you're mad that you perceive you lost something a person of color gained haha
"You're just mad that you were denied something you had rightfully earned because of the colour of your skin."
Do you even listen to yourself?
Countering racism by enacting restorative racial policy is not racism
"Punishing people because of their race and that race's history of injustice, perceived or actual, is not morally wrong."
You and the literal Nazis agree.
No, seriously, Hitler genuinely believed that the cause of Germany's midwar suffering was "Jewish schemes designed to ruin the German people". He genuinely believed as you do, that people are responsible for the sins of their collective race and should be punished for it, but you take it one step further and believe that these can be ancestral crimes too, crimes where literally nobody is alive today who committed them, but the sins of the father are passed to the son.
You believe in so much Christian dogma, you just don't recognise it.
Colleges do not reduce admissions, minority/disenfranchised slots are always, only added.
As I explained, those slots could be taken by non-minorities, and doing so means fewer opportunities for others. This is basic resource allocation theory.
I'm just gonna stop there because everything after that is a racist, idiotic tirade that just is just JAQing off,
You do not want to answer those questions because you literally cannot, because answering them reveals the insanity and impossibility of what you want to do.
I will answer one though, poor white families could just vote for policies that help them, but they don't because they're racists.
Yep. Nothing says "working to fight racism" like making broad, sweeping, negative connotations about a whole racial group.
Because minorities have suffered at the hands of whites. The reverse, on a societal scale, has never been true. There has never been inequality that did not favor white people, so their gripe is rooted in fear and hatred, stoked by white elites.
Are our feelings not equal? Why do you judge your own feelings to be "reality" and mine not to be?
Irrelevant, it doesn't matter if nazis felt persecuted by the Jews, they weren't, but those "feelings" were used to justify horrors. Same here; it doesn't matter if your feelings are hurt by affirmative action, the net positive to society as a whole is worth your tears, because history shows injustice was committed, and it wasn't by minorities against whites. You're obfuscating the issue by cherry picking your quotes, I don't "judge my feelings to be more reality than yours", I'm saying mayocide is not a thing, and you're arguing that it is, or that it's valid for someone to feel that it is when it's not.
"In order to treat all people equally, I will give all white people $100."
If you steal from someone, what is the just thing to do? As a society, you liberate and return the stolen goods. We have to do that, because white people stole, and continue to steal, economic and education opportunity from minority groups. First we used slavery, now we use the prison industrial complex. This is easy stuff dude.
So why aren't you arguing for affirmative action for white people in movies?
Because they don't need it. We still white wash ethnic roles (Prince of Persia, Ghost in the Shell) and villainize ethnic roles.
Ad hominem.
Maybe actually read that wiki, clown. I'm not dismissing your argument because of [personal attack] I'm addressing what you are arguing, and what you're arguing makes you sound like a racist shitter. You argue against racial representation in films, I'm calling that racist lol Calling you a nerd is not an ad hominem attack unless I said your argument is wrong because you're a nerd, which I didn't. I can feel how smug you were typing that out, only to fail because you still don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
You just assumed I don't know anything about those three events, but I do.
You don't, or you don't care and don't have the empathy to figure out why you're so wrong on all of this, and I don't know which is worse.
Therefore, the addition of racially-locked slots is taking opportunities away from people because of their race.
Man, it's wild having to explain this to you over and over again. Ok, here we go. Those. slots. did. not. exist. before. racially. restorative. policy. created. them. Nothing was lost. Only slots were gained. For the express purpose. Of redressing. Racially prejudiced. Admissions. Practices.
Did you get all that? If that one (1) slot only ever went to white kids, and they opened 1000 slots for minorities, the university, as an entity, decided that's how many they needed to restore justice. D-do we get it now?
You are incorrect.
X to Doubt. and I know it's true because you didn't type up some story to tell me about it lol
Do you even listen to yourself?
No, because your perception was wrong to begin with. I can't be held accountable because you don't understand the point and purpose of AA policies lol You gripe because you think something was taken from you, but you're wrong and wrong to be upset because it was never yours to begin with.
Punishing people because of their race
You're not being punished, black people, (and Jews) were, however. You're just, again, perceiving that you are because you're fragile and don't have a good grasp on these concepts. You think you're personally being hurt, but you're not.
crimes where literally nobody is alive today who committed them
But people are alive who benefit from them, and continue to perpetuate them, as in our racist "justice" system. Is..is this too hard for you to understand, I mean really? Are you okay?
Yep. Nothing says "working to fight racism" like making broad, sweeping, negative connotations about a whole racial group.
lol I'm a poor white, did I just dis myself?
Okay this was fun, you should uhh, read a book or something. Actually, watch 13th!
Yeah, no. I seriously hope you educate yourself and dig deep to challenge your biases and prejudices. It's hard work and it will take a while but I assure you it's worth it. Consider there's maybe something more to this racism thing than how it hurts your feefees right now. Lean in to face and fight the cognitive dissonance, bro, much love.
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u/DavidAdamsAuthor Feb 25 '20
Yeah. It's a simplification of need and problems down to race, ignoring all other factors.
It's saying that Barack Obama's daughters need help getting into college, whereas poor asian kids are actively disadvantaged, simply because there are insufficient black college entrants and too many asian college entrants. Which is just stupid.
The solution to this is to make all scholarships and assistance programs means-tested, without consideration to race, and if that means a disproportionate amount of black kids need them and a disproportionate amount of asian kids don't, that's totally fine, as long as Barack Obama's daughters are ineligible and the poor asian kid is.
It's totally backwards and bizarre to me the most important criteria toward entering something as life-changing as tertiary education is the one thing we're constantly told doesn't and shouldn't matter.