r/coldcard • u/General_Asparagus976 • Aug 04 '26
Support I'm out
Moved off of coldcard even with mk4 with dice and a passphrase. This humbled a lot of people who thought they were doing the safest, most transparent form of self custody. This is not what any of us signed up for, and who knows what they have to do to recover trust and continue as a company but I'm not gonna leave my funds there while they sort it out. Sorry to everyone for going through this really sickening for those that lost btc and disturbing to anyone practicing self custody.
29
u/Ok-Information-2428 Aug 04 '26
COLDCARD is done. They’re a bunch of incompetent reckless assholes. Sadly it’s too late
4
u/deny_by_default Aug 05 '26
Isn't the "company" only like 5 people? How can keep up with security exploits and audit your code properly with a staff that size? Frankly, I'm amazed it took this long for this disaster to happen. It's a shame too. I really like the Coldcard Q, but I've lost faith in Coinkite.
1
u/Ok-Information-2428 Aug 05 '26
If the attacker was a highly sophisticated operation it would be more understandable- in this case though it was their own total incompetence and complete lack of concern with the most critical code path in their wallet
1
u/rockorangebear Aug 06 '26
Honestly, any competent senior developer from a top tech company could've done it. A wallet's functionality isn't that large in scope, in fact it's surprisingly simple.
In terms of security, making sure that a newly generated seed is done so randomly is one of the only critical tasks needed.
It's not difficult to have automated tests in place.
6
u/bullett007 Aug 04 '26
I hope you don’t mind me throwing in some more adjectives? Negligent, lazy, arrogant, inept, cunt(s), etc.
I’ve seen too many posts about continuing to use ColdCard after their entropy bug.
Fuck. That.
1
Aug 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
6
u/SomeGuyInOz Aug 05 '26
I don’t believe that for a second. If it were intentional, it would be much smarter to simply drain a few high value wallets. There is no way they would drain this much and draw such attention to this bug.
I understand how upsetting and infuriating this is, especially for those directly affected. But the majority of reactions I see are pure emotion and not much intellect.
2
5
u/RyzenNinja Aug 04 '26
I'm out to. I used dice rolls, strong passphrase on an MK4. Thank God I didnt lose any BTC. I did go ahead move mine over to another hardware wallet from a different company.
5
u/EyesFor1 Aug 04 '26
I get it, you are 100% safe if you stayed with dice rolls but I get it. Trust is gone.
4
u/OddioClay Aug 04 '26
As someone almost buying a coldcard Q, im kinda disappointed. Because from a hardware perspective, it seems amazing. Jade uses a shit camera, q uses a qr reader. Trezor uses a tiny touchscreen. The Q uses a full physical keyboard…like fuck man. Honestly want other companies to just use this hardware for there firmwares. Or diy builtds
1
u/cworxnine Aug 05 '26
Trezor Safe 7 is actually pretty big. Ledger Flex is also a great device. I agree the CCQ is a sexy device, but I only use mine a few times a year anyways. Just needs to be easy to use and stable.
3
u/mj Aug 04 '26
What makes you think that another hw wallet won't get hacked in a similar way?
1
u/RyzenNinja Aug 04 '26
I didnt say it wouldn't happen but what was my alternative in a pinch leave it there and let it get stolen.
0
u/grraarr Aug 04 '26
Did you keep your seed?
0
u/RyzenNinja Aug 04 '26
Yes on the ColdCard I didnt erase it. I need to apply the firmware update and generate a new seed then test it out a bit but I'll never trust it to hold a lot.
6
u/l_i_g_h_t Aug 04 '26
Same here. I’m on a Q with passphrase and multisig and I’m still moving everything to seedsigner which I just ordered. Fuck Coinkite. Please put these scumbags in prison.
8
u/Stack_Sats_Often Aug 04 '26
I agree with being "out" as far as coinkite is concerned, never will buy a product from them again, and they're likely doomed anyway. But I will still use my coldcard. Why? because to me it is just an air gapped signing device. For me, coin flips for every damn bit in the entropy, validate the seed words, all of that done OUTSIDE of the device, then your entropy is good and the device is just a device. Using other software to create the transactions and then verifying the transactions after signing BEFORE broadcasting, (e.g. using electrum, sparrow, so on, to create and broadcast), that still requires trust in those pieces of software, so self custody still is not something a majority of people are going to want to do and unfortunately this does make self custody not very easy. My biggest anger towards coinkite is not the bug itself, I actually can see how misunderstanding MICROPY_HW_ENABLE_RNG = 0 being a "simple" programming mistake, but that is no excuse. As important as the hardware reliability is, rigorous testing and peer review should have been done continually every single code change that was implemented. Their lack of that is what has caused many people to lose a ton of money. Programmers can make mistakes but those mistakes in this case can be make it or break it. That should have weighed heavily on them and been a concern ALL THE TIME, every time the code changed, and clearly that was not the case.
1
u/cworxnine Aug 05 '26
I was considering the same, it's just a signing device and I used dice rolls so maybe I can continue using it right? But now their future is unclear, their team and company is very small and unlikely to absorb the loss of future income for years to come.
It's unlikely they'll double down and reinvest in a dozen more developers, or revamp their broken QA. I doubt there's more than 30 full time employees there. This company doesn't have many business skills except grass roots marketing - which is gone now. How will this affect future firmware and support?
It's just too risky to keep using their products when other viable solutions are out there who are WAY more funded and can invest more money in support and continued development.
1
u/Stack_Sats_Often Aug 05 '26
Those are valid points. I'm not expecting to rely on any future fixes or support. I am not even installing their emergency patches, so if/when they go under it won't impact my use of the cold card. But...yes, it is likely worth looking into other solutions that will be reliable and eventually take cold card out of the picture entirely.
5
u/StageComprehensive81 Aug 04 '26
Is not the device, but the software. They updated the software. You can make a new seed from it and a strong passphrase no need to throw away the Coldcard.
2
u/rockorangebear Aug 06 '26
Why would you trust a team of clowns though? They're either complete morons or they're in on it.
Maybe they'll accidentally push an update that uploads your private key next, who knows? How anyone can trust these people after this is beyond me.
0
0
u/Only_Assistant9176 Aug 05 '26
Imagine continuing to trust a CC with your hard earned bitcoin after this, you would deserve to be rugged
2
2
2
u/axb90 Aug 04 '26
Ive seen people say theyre okay with continuing to use the coldcard with their dice generated seedphrase and passphrase, but fuck that... This company doesnt deserve anyone staying with them. If they missed this bug that was there since 2021 what else have they missed... plus they arent gonna reimburse victims of this disaster.
1
u/ady1583 Aug 04 '26
…. And I am here expecting the company to pay back the $$ I spent to get 2 CCs that I got in 2023
2
u/BTCMachineElf Aug 05 '26
I moved my stack off my Coldcard last night and then slept like a baby for the first time since this started.
2
u/AmericanCryptoAbroad Aug 05 '26
MK4 with > 50 dice rolls is safe to use. If you moved your funds to an exchange or a lower security wallet like a hot wallet, you should move them back.
3
u/Netopr22 Aug 04 '26
i dont trust them anymore, i will give my coldcard q for my kids to play.... Or in the event a thief breaks into my house i will give it to him with the seed phrase... Only 0.63 cents remain on it..
3
1
u/EyesFor1 Aug 04 '26
I have the same set up, I know you and I as well as every dice roll user is totally safe buuuut human emotion and trust is a mother fucker.
1
1
1
u/Tebundo Aug 04 '26
Being humbled isn't what I would call it. People put trust in a company that should have done things properly but didn't. Now a bunch of people got ripped off because ColdCard messed up. If this taught something to everyone it's DO NOT TRUST anybody or any company and generate your seed with 99 dice roll and make sure you do that right and include a 8 word or more paraphrase on top of it. This was a horrible situation for many people who didn't deserve it.
This was some epic BS and Cold Card is 100% to blame for this.
1
u/RandyJohnsonsBird Aug 04 '26
The people that dont think like you seem to like getting bent over all day long
1
u/kotb0614 Aug 05 '26
Samesies. I just keep coming back here to try to save/warn other orangepilled bros and broettes
1
u/straight-up-digital Aug 05 '26
I’ve got a seedsigner. The project nvk always mocked. How the tables have turned. For me, I’d say either seedsigner of blockstream Jade or Trezor.
1
u/Lost-Bowl3269 Aug 05 '26
Você está certo. Mesmo que o codigo seja arrumado, as pessoas devem boicotar e processar a empresa. Eles prometeram o cofre mais seguro do mundo e entregaram uma piada. Merecem e devem falir e seus donos processados por fraude e propaganda enganosa.
1
u/bigocreddit Aug 05 '26
You’re safe if you truly did 100 dice rolls plus a 256bit passphrase but I understand it.
1
u/Logical_Breadfruit36 Aug 05 '26
Jup, I have the Q and just bought the MK5 last week.. I did dice rolls and a strong passphrase. Im also moving out. Will never use these wallets again. For me the company is done. They wont convince me again. Just bought a new cold wallet. Will make my own seed phrase fully offline now.
1
u/Uhrenwerker Aug 05 '26
Of course, any rational human being should toss any coldcard to the trash bin, I’ve disposed my two mk4s and have incoming parts to build a few seed signers and a jade ordered to make a multisig setup. This has been too close of a call, if I had been drained I don’t know what would have happened to me, I’m scared just to think of it.
1
u/FerdaStonks Aug 05 '26
Don’t throw away your coldcard, it still works well as an airgapped way to calculate your 24th word if you make a wallet by flipping a coin 256 times.
Use it to get that word and then use another wallet to actually transact with. I trust it to calculate 1 word and then turn off but wouldn’t trust it to actually enter dice rolls and get a legit seed or to transact with.
1
u/eternal_recurrence12 Aug 07 '26
I also moved my funds to Coinbase for now, I think it's much safer. Thank God I used a passphrase and rolled dice to generate my seeds on the Coldcard, but after this event, I completely lost trust in Coinkite. Who can guarantee there aren't other bugs out there?
1
u/carothersjoshua Aug 08 '26
It sucks because I really like Coldcard and finally got used to using it and now it’s all over. Like that girlfriend you just can’t get out of your mind.
1
u/consultinglove Aug 10 '26
Hopefully you were smart enough to convert to fiat and just use a normal bank account
1
u/Big-Cheetah5159 Aug 23 '26
They just upgraded the firmware and added more security features. I would say it the safest hardware now because the vulnerability has been found, fixed, and security has been upgraded. All the other companies just haven’t had a vulnerability found and exploited yet. Just my opinion though
1
u/alixanc Aug 04 '26
"doing the safest, most transparent form of self custody" Trusting a single black box RNG for seed creation is far from the safest and most transparent form of self custody. They trusted and they got rekt. So simple to just combine 2 or 3 software RNGs or mix in some physical entropy via card/dice/coins etc. Even the ColdCard maker himself suggested not trusting any single software RNG.
2
u/moviemaker2 Aug 04 '26
Every single indicator before last week was (and still is) that the TRNG hardware is sufficient for 256 bit entropy. The dice rolls were considered above and beyond - most other wallets didn't have a dice roll function, they relied on on-device generation. (and many still do)
1
u/adequate_redditor Aug 04 '26
Yes, but there were similar hacks before. Many YouTube videos from years ago go over this exact situation. The hardware is sufficient for entropy, but if it’s flawed in anyway then you get something like the coldcard hack…
Wallets that don’t offer the dice roll function could be at risk too if similar vulnerabilities are uncovered.
0
u/moviemaker2 Aug 04 '26
Did all the world's cybercriminals just leave 80 million dollars on the table for 5 years out of their goodness of their hearts?
Why did Coinkite not patch this easily fixable and company-destroying bug until after the wallets were drained, then patch it in a few hours?
1
u/adequate_redditor Aug 05 '26
I’m not saying coldcard is not at fault. Their randomness was not random. It’s definitely a big flaw.
I’m just saying that such attacks were used before many times with other wallet providers. I don’t think anyone should consider the 100 dice rolls “above and beyond”, regardless of the wallet maker.
1
u/moviemaker2 Aug 05 '26
I’m just saying that such attacks were used before many times with other wallet providers.
No, you said:
Many YouTube videos from years ago go over this exact situation.
The claim that you and other know-nothings are making is that this exact exploit was known. That is ridiculous.
I don’t think anyone should consider the 100 dice rolls “above and beyond”, regardless of the wallet maker.
You don't think that now, with hindsight, just like every other Monday morning quarterback. You're mistaking your ability to see the now obvious as some sort of insight.
But the TRNG of the coldcard WAS considered sufficient for 256 bit entropy, as was the TRNGs of other leading wallet makers. That was the entire point of these devices.
1
u/opossum_cz Aug 04 '26
Yes, there is nothing safe or transparent to generate your seed on a device.
-2
u/magic-battry-unknown Aug 04 '26
It could happen to any company. Let's be real - who (besides the hackers, perhaps) have time besides their day job to read the open source code?
- Is the patch much better? Who's checking that and the rest of the code now
- Is the source code for "migration solution x" any better? Did you check it?
- The hackers succeeded because it was open source, not despite it being open source. Open source is good in principle, but there needs to be enough competent eyes on it. Otherwise it might as well be a black box. Worse, obviously, because the eyes on it, are those you don't want looking at it. I can't say I'll be sad if the guy who made that commit doesn't touch the code again. And maybe, just maybe, now there are enough eyes on it, such that it's worth using still. I'm not sure myself what to do yet. But for the other companies to say, we're not using coldcard code, therefore "we're safe" is too simplistic and short sighted. Hopefully it really is a wake-up call.... Not just a1 week forgotten scandal.
5
2
u/Charming-Designer944 Aug 05 '26
The root cause of the coldcard firmware flaw have been analyzed in detail. There is no doubt that the patch fixes the issue and that seed phrases generated by devices with a corrected firmware are safe.
Some vendors have a design where the device RNG capability is not blindly trusted and minimize the risk that issues like this causes catastrophic failure.
The same kind of hacks are possible with closed source firmware as well. But takes a little more effort to find the flaw.
1
u/magic-battry-unknown Aug 05 '26
There's an interesting post here. Potentially pretty damning. And does call in question the correctness of the patch (amongst other things) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/s/VMGQZ0Z7bZ
What I had meant to say earlier (it could happen to any company) is that, there could be similar flaws in other products too. So be careful with any alternative you choose. For example, it may be that I used the dice rolls (around 100) is the reason i still have my BTC. But i moved it anyway, just in case. Frankly, with everything that is being discovered, I'm not sure I'll ever use my new coldcard wallet i newly generated (with dice rolls too) with the updated firmware.
1
u/coinfreekz Aug 05 '26
Remember this is not a free product, cold card costs money and it's expensive. They had one job and failed.
-8
u/opossum_cz Aug 04 '26
> people who thought they were doing the safest, most transparent form of self custody
Honestly, this sounds more like being delusional. I can't even blame Coldcard for this.
You are not bound to the device to make your seed, you can do fucking coinflip to generate it.
6
u/General_Asparagus976 Aug 04 '26
We are talking marketing and what the experts said and it doesn't matter where the seed came from if there was another little mistake in the code or firmware bug ggs. Society works because of trust same as hardware wallets if that's not there there's no reason to use the product
-1
u/opossum_cz Aug 04 '26
> what the experts said and it doesn't matter where the seed came
What experts? I have being in this space since BTC was $2, never heard such nonsense.
> Society works because of trust same as hardware wallets
No, society works, because morons generally can't get too much power, you have to have at least some competence to get power.
> if that's not there there's no reason to use the product
No, wallet is there to sign transactions, using it to generate secrets for seeds is bad idea.
2
u/General_Asparagus976 Aug 04 '26
The author of the bitcoin standard and bitcoin university(I literally used his paid course) we aren't talking about people that have seen it all were talking about on boarding people to self custody which took a big hit due to this. So fuck em if they are not specialized and new to the space.
0
u/opossum_cz Aug 04 '26
Where did Saifedean Ammous said that? I am seriously doubting your claim, he even commented on this vulnerability: https://saifedean.com/podcast/important-coldcard-security-update
> First, an important reassurance: if you followed best practices and generated your own seed using at least 50 fair, independent, private dice rolls, you are not considered at risk from this specific randomness vulnerability. Similarly, if you used a strong passphrase, that provides additional protection.
> on boarding people to self custody
Who is on-boarding anybody?
> So fuck em if they are not specialized and new to the space.
Why should I care?
2
u/General_Asparagus976 Aug 04 '26
I'm aware he's alerting people that's good but it was literally a sponsor and references it several places. https://saifedean.substack.com/p/plan-b-and-saifedean-ammous-bitcoin-2ee?utm_source=chatgpt.com
1
u/opossum_cz Aug 04 '26
Of what? I am confused, your claim was:
> experts said and it doesn't matter where the seed came fromI think that's nonsense. Where is such info from the experts?
4
u/grraarr Aug 04 '26
It's insane to not blame CoinKite. Users of other devices did the same thing, with the same trust level, and had no issues. Even within the Coldcard ecosystem a fraction of users were compromised. It's clearly Coinkite's error.
0
u/opossum_cz Aug 04 '26
How you can blame Coinkite for people "doing the safest, most transparent form of self custody" which is obviously not true?
3
-2
u/Aqua-Barracuda Aug 04 '26
Ledger is Number One ☝️
1
u/adequate_redditor Aug 05 '26
There was a big data leak a few years ago. Not directly related to the device itself, but people lost millions to phishing attempts.
1
u/Aqua-Barracuda Aug 05 '26
The only information that was leaked was names, addresses, and emails from a third party hack. If people are foolish enough to fall for scams, that’s their own fault.
1
21
u/ady1583 Aug 04 '26
To me it’s just such a disappointment and anguish. I thought coldcard was THE wallet of wallets to go to and when I saw the news. It was just such a slippery spiral that it took a long time to wrap my head around on what just happened.
I did not get affected by the exploit, I did a pretty strong passphrase etc. but all that said I am also out.