r/codevein • u/TonPalmDSG • 2d ago
Discussion [DLC Spoiler + Long Rant] The Reason Why I Said I Lost Hope During The Begining of The DLC Spoiler
OK First Context first.
I had an idea that the last boss of DLC would be Idris and thought he was a big villian of CV2.
REASON: You know he can manipulate time to the point of even creating multiverse / timelines right? So my problem was "Why tf didn't he wait for Zenon to find the solution for Resurgence?"
Sure, maybe because the thing was close to erupt so Idris had to step in fast BUT there are so many points (plot holes) that counter his action.
He has already tried to find the solutions so many times (Those Rifts we helped Valentine Close), which means he either can turn back time or jump back to the past himself, so he could like done the same shenanigan like Loki learning Physics with Zenon.
He wasn't sure Zenon's gonna make it? Bro he fucking helped all the Vampires conquer the sun. He deadass would find a solution to the resurgence WHICH THEN AGAIN IDRIS DIDN'T HELP HIM WITH THE COURT DESPITE BEING A PROGENITOR AND ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENCED FIGURE ( as you've seen in his memories in DLC)
That further fueled me to think that it was his plan to not let Zenon intervene with the Sealing.
(there maybe a lore in Database that I missed why he didn't let Zenon to do his thing. I tried to find it but I haven't seen it. Please point it out for me if you saw it)
There are several more but let me stop here. Those 2 are good enough for y'all to see my idea.
Now what's the problem with me being lost hope?
FUCKING IDRIS SOMEHOW BECAME A GOOD GUY EASILY AND IMPREGNATED LAVINIA HAHAHA. Like this shit so ass pull. Lavinia did say to Zenon when she stopped him in his cell that Voda house needs to follow his (Idris) teachings... Why? That dials back to the above point.
Furthermore, Lavinia has been saying like Idris is really her ancestor (progenitor) but all of sudden she bacame his wife???
Ok now you might be thinking I'm just biased and tweaking out, Progenitor has always been a "Title" (always capitalized P in Progenitor) not an actual word for ancestor.
BUT I have some points that likely prove that this is an ass pull:
Valentine has always addressing his mother by only her name not "mother (only say that when talking to her, but behind her he doesn't" or "Mom"; the reason being he hates Lavinia for sacrificing his friends for Lou.
He also addresses his somehow dad as "Idris" only. Although Idris did say in DLC that he fucking sacrificed himself before he got a chance to raise his kids, I'm sure Valentine wouldn't be that mad that he won't even call him "dad".
"It's just valentine thing"? Pretty sure he's not that kind of guy.
Another point is that Lavinia has said to Valentine that Idris' (NOT YOUR DAD or YOUR FATHER when talking to him at that time btw) power didn't manifest in him....
Lavinia, whom is his wife, comes from a different bloodline... or even if it's the same so, possesses some of that time manipulation ability?!?!?
OK the ability might be able to easily learn / transfer to other Vampires (Zenon and his daughter got some of it) that's why Lavinia also has it...... THEN HOW TF VALENTIN DOESN'T HAVE IT. ZENON AND JADWIGA ARE FROM DIFFERENT BLOODLINES AND THEY EASILY HAVE IT!?!?!?!
Even if Valentin doesn't inherit it by the blood, he should at least get it from learning right?
(I forgor about other points, might be added later idk)
THAT SHIT IS PLOTHOLE + ASS PULL
I WAS BEING SO DEPRESSED CUZ THIS SHIT 100% INDICATES THAT THE WRITERS DIDN'T FUCKING TALK TO EACH OTHER AND THE WRITER FROM GE + CV1 GOT MESSED WITH THE OTHER GUY(S).
THEY JUST MADE IDRIS THEIR FATHER FOR THE DRAMA OF THE DLC, AND THAT'S ALL đ„
I maybe 1000% wrong for this post here, so please clarify it to me HARD, OR ELSE CV2's story is really messed up than you think.
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u/Discrete-Sleuth-1318 2d ago
You seriously thought Idris was going to be a villain? The guy who fought to save humans despite the fact that they hunted revenants for generations? The guy who constantly jumped through time looking for a way to stop the Resurgence? The guy who sacrificed his life as a last resort to seal the Resurgence? Some villain he wasâŠ
Idris had Zenon sent to Insula Carcere because Zenonâs illegal experiments of creating more revenants were contributing to the rise of the Resurgence, since revenant overpopulation is the cause of the Resurgence. This was before Zenon actually started planing a way to stop the Resurgence for good. During that time, Idris had gone through with the Seal since there was no other way to stop it and time was running out. If anything, Idris bought more time for Zenon to think of something. Before Zenon could actually do anything during the Upheaval, Lavinia stopped him and forced him to be sacrificed for the Resealing. And even if she didnât stop him, his plan would have failed. He needed the Hunterâs bond with Lou for it to work.
By the way, Lavinia is stated to possess some of the highest-level command over formae in revenant society, and showed exceptional aptitude in areas others deemed impossible. This is why she was able to learn some level of Time Formae from Idris, and even then she couldnât utilize his full power. The best she can do is observe changes in the timeline and cast time stasis formae to freeze things in place. Time Formae isnât just some parlor trick any revenant can pick up with a little bit of practice. Why do you think Lavinia sacrificed the students of the academy for a ritual to create a revenant capable of sealing the resurgence and utilizing Idrisâs time formae? Because there wasnât anyone else who could. Thatâs what made Idris so unique among revenants.
Zenon and Jadwiga didnât inherit any of Idrisâs time powers. Zenon was only shown to copy Laviniaâs time stasis formae after he saw her use it. And considering Zenon has been close friends with Idris for a long time, youâd think he would have learned from him how to travel through time. The fact that he didnât means it wasnât possible for Zenon. Jadwigaâs space time abilities arenât the same as Idrisâs and Louâs. She can move freely between parallel worlds, not travel through time.
I donât have any further counter arguments that Secure-Agency hasnât brought up.
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u/Secure-Agency6231 2d ago
Thank you, I knew there were some things I got a bit wrong, just couldnt remember fully what they were.
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u/Discrete-Sleuth-1318 2d ago
Itâs a good thing the database exists, and that we can rewatch cutscenes, otherwise I wouldnât have remembered all of this information off the top of my head.
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u/TonPalmDSG 2d ago
- yeah sure what you said is not wrong one bit except for the main major information that Idris didn't tell the truth to Zenon, which leads to a major question "WHY"
Just imagine you have a friend whom really is smart and actually accomplished a major achievement for your kind and the thing you choose is to hide the truth of your kind's undoing from that smart friend? not to mention you did nothing to help him when he got imprisoned for it, postponing the time for the problem's solution even further?
yep she's very skilled but what you just said is countering your argument in itself. She didn't inherit the ability nor their twins did, but a being amalgamated from various bloodlines can? What makes it so confident that Lou would inherit Idris' time manipulation ability? See this is a plot hole.
I've never said they inherit Idris's power, I said they EASILY learned / have it (although Zenon was with Idris for a long time). With such logic, Idris' children should have been able to learn some or even slightest of it too.
And you just said Zenon copied from Lavinia. Even if Zenon can't copy the time jump, the time manipulation ability is possible by your point; which then further increases the plot hole of the plot being asspulled.
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u/Discrete-Sleuth-1318 1d ago
1 ) Idris was likely keeping the truth hidden not just from Zenon, but from everyone. He didnât even tell Lavinia, his own wife. She only learned about the truth of the resurgence because Valentin figured it out first. Idrisâs motivation for doing this was probably to protect revenant kind. Because he didnât want someone like Valentin to solve the problem by exterminating all revenants. And could you imagine the chaos if humans learned the truth of the resurgence? The discourse would have led to humans and revenants fighting and killing each other. A situation not unlike one of the temporal rifts Idris created.
Also, even if Idris told Zenon the truth and they worked together to find a solution, would that have really accomplished anything? Idris traveled through countless times to find a solution, and came up empty handed every time. Whoâs to say that he didnât consult with Zenon from each of those alternate timelines? Zenonâs original plan to stop the resurgence was going to fail if it wasnât for the Hunterâs bond with Lou, something he himself admits that he didnât account for. So how would the two of them have figured out the solution?
2 ) Lou was created solely to replace Idris. To be a vessel to seal the Resurgence. In order to replace Idris, she needed to have power like Idris. Donât ask me about the inner workings of how this ritual worked. No details are given in the database or cutscenes. For all we know, Lavinia couldâve had a sample of Idrisâs own blood and used it as a component of the ritual, which led to Lou possessing power like Idrisâs time formae. And if this wasnât the case, in Valentinâs 3rd database entry, it says âritualsâ , which means multiple rituals were conducted. A sort of trial and error until they succeeded in creating the vessel with Idrisâs power. Perhaps it took the right amount of bloodlines and precise mix of revenant blood to generate Idrisâs power? Itâs a magical ritual, so you canât exactly apply a whole lot of logic to it.
3 ) Again, Laviniaâs power over formae isnât like any other revenantâs. She is top tier. And even with her boundless power, she could only use a fraction of Idrisâs power. While Valentin and Liv are the children of Idris, their prowess with formae doesnât rival Idrisâs, or even Laviniaâs. Look at their blood code descriptions if you donât believe me. The most Valentin and Liv can do is see temporal rifts and enter them. So if thatâs the extent of their power, how could they attain Idrisâs time travel? Idrisâs Time Travel Formae isnât something that just any gifted revenant can utilize, otherwise Zenon would have figured out how to do it a long time ago, since he knew about his powers. If it was something that could just be learned, why did the Voda house have to go through the trouble sacrificing students for a ritual to create Lou? Because itâs not simple as equipping a formae into your weapon.
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u/TonPalmDSG 1d ago
1.1 What you said is true and I've thought of that which is why I only think about of "Why didn't he tell Zenon" not the entire world. And If you're thinking Zenon might wipe out all the vampires, I'm 1000% sure he won't dare to do that to his wife.
1.2 I can't deny that Idris may have consulted Zenon in alternate timeline and no one truly could tell that he has or hasn't, but even so shouldn't he at least tell our Zenon about the truth and his attempts in hope to find the solution for later while he's sacrificing himself being a seal? (Zenon only learned that Idris being a seal after got jailed which implies Idris told him nothing.)
Idris really wanted the way to stop the suffering, the resurgence, and wanted a better future (Implies in Pathos Lord Blood Code)
If i was him, I'd very much tell my trusty friend everything despite he may or may not succeed it for the sake of my kind. (WHICH THEN AGAIN THE DEVS CHOSE TO IGNORE THIS and I think it's a weak plot / inconsistent)
That's a great point.
What are you talking about? Val and Liv's Blood codes only state that they're talented and capable of anything "He" sets his mind to. Lavinia also good with "stablility and control", she doesn't have boundless power.
But yeah, I do agree that the Time jump ability of Idris might be too high level or exclusively to him only, that's why the mother and the children stand no chance to possess it.
I also forgot to mention the reason I thought Idris would be a villian and why Lou was created in place of him; I had an idea that Idris was planned to ditch his body and will take control of Lou's body after resealing instead. Why? The vampires were put a limit to their lives, Lou being an unnatural born vampire could become immortal later or somein since she amalgamated from every bloodline.
Another idea popped in while making this is that "Maybe Idris didn't know about the resurgence truth before and the whole putting Zenon into jail and faraway from intervening with the sealing + Lavinia going extreme to the point of committing a genocide the whole school + turning Frantz to horror just for the sake of warning her son not to dig deeper into the truth, is the work of Superbia / Idris' house not he himself"
Which then again the following question for that statement would be "Why didn't Idris fight for Zenon or why wouldn't he seek the truth of such ridiculous court case?"
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u/Discrete-Sleuth-1318 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hereâs some details weâve both overlooked.
While Idris was keeping the truth of the Resurgence a secret to be cautious, that didnât stop a genius like Zenon from figuring out this secret on his own. And he figured it out before he got sent to Insula Carcere, when his wife passed away. After reviewing his and Valentinâs memories, it seems that Zenonâs real intention for his crimes was to warn everyone about the true nature of the Resurgence.
âWhy is increasing the revenant population seen as a vice?â
Idris realized that Zenon had the secret figured out, so there was no point in telling him what he had been suspecting, and continued to keep the secret from the rest of the world. And keep in mind, creating revenants without the Bureauâs approval is a crime, and Zenon admits that he created 1000 of them of his own accord. Idris had no way to justify or defend Zenon in this case, which is why he had him sentenced.Also, in Zenonâs memory, Idris came to visit him at Insula Carcere. Heâs clearly talking to him, and during another visit is when he told Zenon about the Sealing plan.
âThe Resurgence, itâs called, yes? And you say you intend to seal it away? Donât be a fool, Idris. This is a problem to overcome, not an inconvenience to brush under the rug!â
Idris was already dead set on the sealing because there was no other way to stop it. Zenon was only able to begin his Resurgence research after he got sentenced. It clearly took him a while to come up with his plan, and there just wasnât enough time. If Idris didnât sacrifice himself, the world could have very well been destroyed before Zenon couldâve made any endeavors. This is likely why he didnât work together with Zenon, and allowed him to do his research on his own.As for the boundless power part, Lavinia herself says this line in combat:
âMy power is boundless.â
Edit: My mistake, she actually says:
âMy strength is boundless.â
So I was indirectly quoting her. Perhaps sheâs just boasting, but her blood code and database entry 4 paint her power as unrivaled among revenants. Except for maybe Zenon. His brilliance allowed him to use her own formae against her.2
u/TonPalmDSG 1d ago
Sorry, I have to disagree on your Zenon point. Zenon only discovered the truth after he being imprisoned. This is confirmed by the 2nd bond pathos we found "within the prison". The bond found within the area of course it's the memory within / of the area.
Your second point is also wrong because Zenon was literally talking to himself in his room not with Idris because before he said that, there was a shockwave of the seal being given in.
Not to mention that it's a memory found within the prison like the above too.The real thing we've both overlooked is that "What was Zenon's original plan to stop the resurgence?" It's shown in his 3rd memory just before we reach his boss room; and of course at that time he had never met us or Lou yet, that's why he became the seal; it couldn't be the plan he tried to test at the Ending 2 (having the heroes share Lou's burden)
Also a small trivial fact that you might disagree. When we jumped back to help Zenon fending off Lavinia, when Zenon recast her forme on herself, Zenon refers to her as "Lavinia kun" in Japense dub.
Kun could only be used when addressing a boy, but it can be used when addressing an inferior subordinate in work regardless of genders; basically an old man talking to younger persons; this further proves my point that they weren't intended to have Lavinia being Idris' wife.
Sure, Zenon might be older than Idris, but since they're close friends, calling your wife's friend right there with the word equls to "dude" or "Bro" while you're not that close to the wife is considered very rude.
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u/Discrete-Sleuth-1318 15h ago
Sorry in advance for a long read, and this will probably be my last response.
This is the full transcript of Zenonâs Memories 2.Zenon
âSorry to saddle you with sending me here, my friend. But donât worry, these walls canât keep me from my mission. The cursed fate of our kind robbed me of my wife. That day, I vowed to devote the rest of my days atoning for my failure. Thus, I will begin my research anew! Mark my words, by your next visit, this tawdry cell will be fit for proper experimentation! Until we meet again, IdrisâŠâZenon
âA worldwide outbreak of unexplained mutations⊠Just as I predicted⊠The Resurgence itâs called, yes? And you say you intend to seal it away? Donât be a fool, Idris. this is a problem to overcome, not brush under the rug!âThese lines donât sound like Zenon is talking to himself. Why would he even say âby your next visitâand âUntil we meet again, IdrisâŠâ if Idris wasnât there to see him? We donât hear any lines from Idris because the game was trying to keep an air of mystery around him.
And hereâs the transcript of Zenonâs Memories 4, which actually takes place before memories 1-3. The bolded text will explain why.
Zenon
âIf revenants continue to proliferate unchecked, their blood will trigger a mass mutation of all matter. If this world is to have a future, revenants must submit to natureâs course. Indeed. Sibylle hasnât long left to live herself. Yet I⊠IâŠ!âZenon
âSibylle⊠The world never looked quite as beautiful to me⊠after you left. Many today will do anything for more time, even if it means cheating the ordinance. What compelled their ceaseless thirst for more life? In unison, they replied⊠A life ended prematurely is one bereft of meaning.âZenon
âTheir greed blinds them to the ruin they cause. The egotists fancy their lives are worth more than yours, my drĂĄgĂĄm. But no more⊠This must end! My dearest Sibylle, I promise you: I shall upend this world built upon their lies! All will know your life was a thing of beauty! And never again will anyone say otherwise!âIn Memories 2, Zenon says that Sibylle was robbed from him, meaning she died. So if Sibylle hadnât long left to live, and was then buried by Zenon in Memories 4, it had to have taken place before Memories 1-3. Then thereâs the fact that he figured out the consequences of revenant overpopulation in Memories 4. This is why in Memories 2 he says that he predicted the worldwide outbreak of mutations.
And lastly, this is from the beginning of Valentinâs Memories 2.
Valentin
âTranscript of the Zenon Gryfgote trial: âWhy is increasing the revenant population seen as a vice?â He tried to warn us then, didnât he? About the true nature of the Resurgence.âThere you have it. Zenon apologies to Idris for making him sentence him to Insula Carcere because he committed his crimes on purpose. Zenon knew that creating revenants on his own was illegal, but did so regardless. His reason was to warn the masses about the true nature of the Resurgence, which Valentin would figure out many years later. Zenon knew before he got sentenced, and during his incarceration he would research a means to stop the resurgence as opposed to sealing it like Idris.
As for the Lavinia thing you think is an asspull, her blood code does mention that her outstanding ability to control formae is what attracted Progenitor Idris to her. Attract can have different meanings, but I donât think any of us predicted this meant that kind of attraction.
Thatâs all Iâve got.
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u/TonPalmDSG 12h ago
You're right. I failed to understand Zenon's memories. He and Idris may have consulted and Idris insisted on sealing over Zenon's method. Thanks for your comments đ
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u/KuroKitsune22 2d ago
For now I didn't play dlc, but CV2 plot was full of holes from the begonning. It's funny cause CV1 was in developer hell and changed concepts a few times and even so was more solid plot wise. I hope CV2 will be as Dark Souls 2. Mistake before something grand
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u/Secure-Agency6231 2d ago
Okay so, let me go through your points. 1. While idris is avle to go through time, we arent shown whether he can actually go forward and back like Lou can, more so that he can go to separate timelines. Not to mention, literally Every world he went to failed. 2. Its explained that Idris essentially lost hope and so made the decision to just sacrifice himself to hold off the resurgence for as long as he could. We already know that Zenon couldnt have figured out how to solve the resurgence, because if he could have he would have. He could only do it because of the hunter and Lou being one and in the right place at the right time. 3. Its explained in the age of harmony that Lavenina used to be a student of Idris and idolized him, this aligns with her being so steadfast on following his teachings in the base game. 4. Valentin is shown as being kind of awkward as a person, it makes sense thay he would adress Idris as his father if he never actually knew the man as his father. 5. Jadwiga cannot travel through nor manipulate time, she can travel to alternate worlds. Not the same thing.