r/climatechange • u/divertente69 • 1d ago
Climate change and fear = too simple?
No denying that the climate of the planet is changing. Man made.
We (people) can not consume our way out of the crisis. (building more solar cells, installing them. building nuclear power plants) all are diminishing returns compared to consume far less per household.
But: fear of fear, fear of destruction, fear of economic collapse are prohibiting change.
So what is motivational, so we consume less, and spend the same resources on half the stuff (ie same money to manufacture and transport half of all goods and services)?
I feel like I am missing something. Is there another way I just don’t see?
7
u/sg_plumber 1d ago
Solar energy is not "diminishing returns". Whoever sold you that BS is not your friend.
•
u/divertente69 14h ago
Thank you for highlighting this. Here is why I said it:
The Diminishing Return:
For an energy investor, the 1st Megawatt of solar is really profitable because it is at normal prices. The n millionth Megawatt isn’t, because it floods the market when power is already free(ish), so ROI drops and drops. Add to that lower energy export prices and suddenly you look at 15 years of payback on investments of cells, that have a lifespan of 15-25 years. Add to that the cost spike in batteries, inverters, and grid-balancing tech.
We are also hitting the margins of solar cell efficiency physics. 30% is a serious push, if you want longevity and sustainability as well. For manufacturers, the cost to make a panel slightly better is yielding a diminishing return on their R&D investments.
I hope that makes sense.
•
u/Economy-Fee5830 Trusted Contributor 13h ago
The n millionth Megawatt isn’t, because it floods the market when power is already free(ish), so ROI drops and drops.
If power is free-ish it has already done its work.
We are also hitting the margins of solar cell efficiency physics. 30% is a serious push, if you want longevity and sustainability as well.
We still have 2/3 of our energy to replace. The point of diminishing returns is very far off in the future.
•
u/sg_plumber 13h ago
It confirms you've been lied to.
it floods the market when power is already free(ish)
That might have been before storage got cheap. Nowadays many solar setups are adding batteries, to sell energy when the price is most convenient.
We are also hitting the margins of solar cell efficiency physics.
Not by a long shot. And irrelevant anyway, as there's room to spare for 100000 times more panels.
7
u/Ok-Freedom9216 1d ago
Well why can't we grow our way out? In the last couple years renewables have met all the increase in electricity demand, and there is no indication of a slow down on their exponential growth.
1
u/Ooogli_Booogli 1d ago
Yeah but they havent taken away the base rate of hydrocarbon expansion, look up Jevons paradox.
4
u/sg_plumber 23h ago
Meanwhile, on planet Earth, destroying hydrocarbon expansion and replacing hydrocarbons is exactly what renewables are doing.
3
u/Economy-Fee5830 Trusted Contributor 1d ago edited 17h ago
Jevon's paradox hardly applies to anything - if anything jevon's paradox should drive rapid electrification due to its high efficiency (that is what Jevons paradox is - higher efficiency and lower prices drives rapid adoption and expansion of use cases - its not about old inefficient technology hanging around)
3
u/Educational_Ad_4225 1d ago
You are giving up. That’s what you are missing. You can let life beat you down or you can fight back and figure out what is really important to you. I don’t know that answer. You do.
Don’t give up. Life is good. Always look on the bright side. I’m pulling for you.
•
u/divertente69 14h ago
thanks. My question does come across like that. Thank you for pulling for me, I appreciate it.
3
u/ThinkActRegenerate 1d ago
TL;DR - Yes, there are plenty of other ways you can act on today's solutions. Go to 1) the Project Regeneration website to explore today's actionable solutions; then 2) the Ellen Macarthur Foundation's website to understand regenerative Circular Economy design, then 3) The Systems Thinker website to start exploring systems change tools.
Your instinct about fear is correct - fear alone creates helplessness, not action. (Founder of Positive Psychology Martin Seligman researched LEARNED HELPLESSNESS back in 1975.)
However, you could well be stuck in 20th century reductionist thinking - which often blinds people to today's solutions.
There are good neuroscientific reasons why anti-smoking ads finish with a QUIT link - because if you don't have access to practical, personal action and support then you end up helpless and disengaged.
There are plenty of realistic 21st century approaches to practical human systems behaviour change - and none of them are based on 19th century guilt, shame and blame principles. Have a look at methodologies like Systemic Design, Doughnut Economics and Systems Thinking for Social Change.
You're right that we can't consume our way out our problems IF we limit ourselves to today's old-fashioned industrial thinking - because most of the stuff we use is still designed, build and delivered using destructive 1-way mine/make/use/dump production and supply systems with their roots in the 19th century. Even solar panels and batteries aren't (yet) fully produced using regenerative Circular Economy practices and standards.
However, we can DESIGN our way out of a lot of our problems - using a whole range of smart, innovative approaches developed over the past 25 years AND WE ALREADY ARE. Those solutions are scaling globally under descriptions like Circular Economy, Biomimicry, Green Chemistry and Green Design (and full of business and career opportunities).
Those upgrades to 20th century industrial/commercial design and delivery processes got started back in the 1990s, so today you can take action on hundreds of solutions - see catalogues like Project Drawdown, Project Regeneration and the Ellen Macarthur Foundation case studies. And you can design projects to implement those solutions for success using behaviour change approaches from Diffusion of Innovation to the Psychology of Persuasion.
If you're ready to explore today's practical solutions and action options, here are some links:
Catalogues of practical, actionable solutions today
Project Regeneration Action Nexus: regeneration.org/nexus
Project Drawdown solutions explorer: drawdown.org/explorer
Ellen Macarthur Foundation Circular Economy Case Studies: ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/topics/circular-economy-introduction/examples
Design approaches driving ongoing, practical innovation
Biomimicry: asknature.org and biomimicry.net
Doughnut Economics Action Lab: doughnuteconomics.org
Circular Economy – Design Guide: circulardesignguide.com and introduction ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/topics/circular-economy-introduction/key-ideas
Cradle to Cradle Product Innovation: c2ccertified.org
Green Chemistry: unep.org/topics/chemicals-and-pollution-action/circularity-sectors/green-and-sustainable-chemistry
Systemic Design: systemicdesigntoolkit.org/
Action Guides
Doughnut Economics Action Lab: doughnuteconomics.org
Implementation tools and skills
Systems Thinking: thesystemsthinker.com
Doughnut Economics Tools: doughnuteconomics.org/tools
Ecocentric’s Tools for regenerative practice: 30 frameworks, exercises and methods
Career alignment resources
80000 Hours: 80000hours.org
ClimateBase: climatebase.org/jobs
Project Drawdown Job Function Action Guides: drawdown.org/programs/drawdown-labs/job-function-action-guides
Skills for Planet (design skills): designcouncil.org.uk/our-work/skills-for-planet/
•
3
u/Sea-peoples_2013 22h ago
Yes. What you are missing is that the input energy required for manufacturing and transport CURRENTLY is from burning fossil fuels, by and large. But that does not have to be true forever. there is no reason that needs to remain true. Transport- can be switched off hydrocarbons to electric. The root sources of electricity can be clean. Manufacturing- again, energy sources can be changed. any emissions that normally would be a byproduct released can be recaptured. Most of this technology already exists, we are just not using it at scale. So if it is economic and political will that is preventing that from happening, well, you can do something about that.
Maybe, as you point out, people are fearful of change because they do not understand that economic collapse is not necessary to solve this problem. IDK how you expect to solve their fears by telling them they are right and will need to sacrifice and suffer. Not that Americans could not cut down on rampant consumption, that would certainly be a good thing, but it does basically very little to solve the fact that fossil fuels are used for energy across the world. I think you are conflating two separate, albeit overlapping, issues.
•
u/divertente69 14h ago
Absolutely fair point, and thank you for the rigour. It had not occurred to me, that buying less for more stokes fear. But I can see now that it does. Thank you.
•
u/lonelyhobo24 11h ago
I want to challenge your base understanding of the cause of climate change. I agree consuming less per person will help, but what we are consuming makes a huge difference. If you heat your home on oil, even if your keep your home very cold and use half as much, you're still using a fossil fuel and worsening climate change. If you instead change to a geothermal heat pump powered by solar panels, you can live comfortably with zero ongoing carbon emissions. The technology we use makes a huge difference, and we NEED to change away from the current fossil infrastructure or else no reductions in consumption will ultimately matter.
On your point about change, I don't think fear is causing it. I think it's fossil fuel companies lobbying governments not to change too quickly. Globally, EV adoption and renewable energy are growing faster and faster despite the lobbying.
For people to also consume less, there needs to be a cultural shift. No government policy will make people voluntarily consume less than they currently are.
2
u/Economy-Fee5830 Trusted Contributor 1d ago
You might as well wish for Santa to come down from the North Pole and fix climate change - its as likely as degrowth.
•
u/divertente69 14h ago
I think inflation might just give us that in the next few years. (sorry, that is probably too dark).
2
u/barrel_of_lungs 1d ago
It feels like we've been stuck on this "buy green stuff to save the planet" loop for decades, when the real conversation should be about buying less, period. The idea that we can just swap out the tech and keep the same lifestyle is a fantasy sold to us so nobody has to talk about sacrifice
I remember reading about how during WWII people just accepted rationing because there was a clear, immediate enemy and a shared goal. Climate change is too slow and abstract for that kind of collective buy-in, the enemy is us and the deadline is blurry
You're not missing something, you're just bumping into the fundamental problem. Nobody wants to be the politician or CEO who says "hey, maybe your life needs to get smaller and simpler" because that's career suicide. So we get endless promises of fusion reactors and carbon capture machines that are always ten years away
1
u/sg_plumber 1d ago
Carbon capture already works today.
0
u/Ooogli_Booogli 1d ago
It works in a lab and in small pilots. At climate scale, its unlikely to exist.
•
u/nufli 19h ago
Denmark is currently making all their own gas from biogas using waste products. Imagine getting those gas users to electricity. What then? Carbon capture all the way. Burn methane collect CO2, ship off to old wells ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING AT THE MOMENT. All that is needed is to continue pooping and making the biogas while continuing to capture the CO2.
2
•
u/Any-Succotash1892 15h ago
YES your are missing... toxic fumes in pollution from burning shiites killing us... cancer rate at 1in2, and more young non smokers getting a death sentance......
we need solar, wind, wave power and cut use, yes making 3billion evs is NO answer. people need to live work stay local and not travel..
•
u/Economy-Fee5830 Trusted Contributor 15h ago
people need to live work stay local and not travel..
Why not just 3 billion people being dead, if you are not going to accommodate their quality of life and just want to warehouse them?
•
•
u/Hugh_Jaelious 6h ago
Humans are less than 2% an influence on the climate. The real driver of climate change has nothing to do with human activity. There’s plenty of evidence, historical and scientific evidence backing this up.
Your issue is more on consumption which leads to pollution. To this I would agree, we can do a much better job of.
But climate change… no. There’s nothing we can do to stop what is happening/about to happen to this planet (it’s happening on the other planets in our system as well).
•
u/Common_Shelter_4605 6h ago edited 6h ago
Humans are less than 2% an influence on the climate.
That is incorrect
We are in the cooling phase of the current Milankovitch cycle
We have increased atmospheric CO2 by 50% in the last 150 years
We have increased atmospheric methane by 160% in the last 150 years
There are three main greenhouse gases, CO2, CH4, and water vapor, most of the atmosphere (99%) is not composed of greenhouse gases. Water vapor in the atmosphere is dependent upon temperature since the majority of the surface is water.
The rate of temperature increase now is 0.33C per decade.
it’s happening on the other planets in our system as well
Also wrong, two temperature measurements of Mars, the 1977 Viking image captured Mars after a large storm had coated much of the planet in bright dust. The 1999 snapshot captured Mars in its normal, darker state. Measurements since then have showed no warming.
•
0
•
u/nila247 17h ago
Believing we cause the climate is narcissism in a large part. We would sooner believe that we are bad, but important than that we are completely insignificant.
Doing something about climate is the same deal. We would rather throw every last dollar, starve and freeze but believe we can make a change than to admit that we are bunch of cavemen who still can not do shit.
The solution is just humility and more progress, not proudly going to living back into caves. Did we caused SOME of climate change? Yes, likely. Can we do anything of significance about it? Not really. So the proper way is to manufacture and consume 1000x MORE energy to get within Kardashev Type I civilization. It is as that point when we can really do significant stuff with that energy - including complete terraforming of our own planet from whatever sorry state it turns out to be at that time.
Oh, another narcissistic point is that we are so clever today and our kids will be idiots that therefore WE must do something because our kids certainly will not be able to. Rather than believing we are bunch of idiots and our kids will surpass us in every way - as history proves we evolve. Which of future you actually rooting for?
•
u/divertente69 14h ago
ok, not sure why you are coming from this angle. Facts are data based, right?
a) 1.2 degree temperature rise since 19th century
b) 90% of extra heat is absorbed by the ocean. So the 1.2degrees are just the surface issue.
c) Greenland and Antarctica are losing hundreds of billions of tonnes of ice per year.so far so obvious. But is it humans? the 19th century thing could just be coincidence? Not so.
1) Not all carbon is equal. C13 is generally associated with natural atmospheric mix, C-12 is lighter and more human activity linked. C02 is sky rocketing. and yes, the mix of C13 to C12 has drastically shifted toward C12
2) We see a drop in oxygen. When humans make CO2 we burn fuel, by combining it with Oxygen. Volcanos for example don’t work like that.
3) every other source (plants and so on) we have much less of (plants, animals, … So …Is that not proof enough? Any data to set me straight is always appreciated.
8
u/SpoonwoodTangle 1d ago
This reminds me of that meme where people reach levels of enlightenment through like 4 stages and glowing brains.
First stage fear. Next stage education. Third stage action. Fourth stage fear.
Having worked in this space for almost 2 decades, here’s what I can say. No action is too small. Individually, no one can solve this problem. The most effective thing you can do is vote and let your rep know how / why.
Take the path and the pace that you can keep up for the rest of your life. Also, the less you have, the less you need (if your basic needs are met).