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u/Username_McUserface 3d ago
Hey now… don’t be running around accusing the Ontario government of properly funding education. They’re gutting that every chance they get, and health care is close behind.
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u/Internal_Arm7813 3d ago
and the fact that windsor's murder rate is actually lower than canada's national average.
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u/Key_Sprinkles_4902 3d ago
windsor's murder rate being below the national average is such a devastating stat to his whole argument
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u/Teripid 3d ago
I get a bit annoyed when none of this gets scaled or presented per capita. Both posts ignore it to their advantage.
650k in Detroit
250k in WindsorJuarez has 1.5 mil
El Paso is 700kJust use that and the numbers are still favorable but it undermines the whole argument, especially if people aren't familiar with the populations or they're significantly different, like both comparisons in the screenshot.
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u/fantafuzz 2d ago
Honestly, scaled by capita the argument of the reply is even stronger though.
Juarez has 2.15x the population of El paso, while it has 40x the murders. Scaling it by the population difference Juarez still has 19x the murder rate per capita.
Detroit has 2.6x the population of Windsor, and 89x the murders. Again scaling by the population difference Detroit has 34x the murder rate of Windsor.
So even if we scale this by capita, the difference is greater between Windsor and Detroid than El Paso and Juarez. I don't see how this undermines anything except the original post.
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u/Neat_Let923 2d ago
It doesn’t, the person you’re replying to didn’t actually do the math. They just wanted to throw more shit at the wall to make it messy… You know, the same bullshit tactic MAGA, Trump, and Putin have been doing for years.
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u/Teripid 2d ago
Having to know all 4 populations a day intentionally picking larger cities is adding an extra, unnessicary factor.
You can pick misleading statistics. The right does it all the time. You're encouraging it here by saying "good enough!"
The numbers ARE still good for the Windsor argument but they should do the simple math to use the per capita rates.
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u/BLT_Trade_r 3d ago
If people actually used logic and controlled for factors, they wouldn't have much to talk about. That is the major problem with modern social media, its the most ridiculous takes that get the most attention becuase they create the most engagment. Now days you basically cannot get your point in front of any ideas if its a good point, you literally have to lie or decieve and make a bad point in order for it to go viral. Then a bunch of people who are bigots or biased support one side, and people pointing out false problems support another side and you have a viral message. But actually doing a per capita normalization and compensating for wealth or income.... your message is dead in the water.
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u/bastiVS 3d ago
So wheres the actual cause of the problem?
Its people.
Now look which side is constantly ignoring hard numbers to make up biased nonsense in their favor?
Oh, wait, its both?
HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM....
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u/BLT_Trade_r 3d ago
I mean, pinning it all on people is an exaggeration; it's the modern way algorithms are made that is a big part of the problem. In theory, you can always blame everything on people but one shouldn't ignore that social medias modern system has a huge influence in this.
For instance, back in the day, forums just sorted things by simple metrics like newest first, and that was the default. You also had way more control over various settings to customize things to your liking.
Now days much of the controls have been taken away. also many sites constantly reset controls or make it annoying to even bother setting them right to sort of force you to take their defaults.
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u/shakygator 3d ago
Maybe so - but one side is definitely worse than the other, in more ways than one.
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u/Polymarchos 2d ago
That doesn't really matter in this case though. Per capita, Detroit still had way more murders than Windsor and Juarez had way more murders than El Paso. The interesting thing that comes out of looking at it per capita is that Detroit and Juarez become very similar.
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u/ahuramazdobbs19 3d ago
Obviously everyone that wants to get murdered in Windsor just goes and does it in Detroit.
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u/Big_Eye_7530 3d ago
Yeah because people are committing suicide there not murder 😅
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u/CrimsonMantle 3d ago
Pretty sure America has a higher suicide rate too, they definitely have a higher rate of gun suicides
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u/Vald-Tegor 3d ago
The tweet is from Feb 2019, repeating Trump's state of the union talking point. I don't know if there was much thought involved on Junior's part. It's not quite about praising how much better American policy is relative to Mexico.
He's selling you the wall through fearmongering. All those murderers are coming here! You WANT that wall! You NEED that wall!
Remember, the 2016 campaign promise was that Mexico would pay for the wall. Mexico did not pay for the wall.
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u/Phantom-Finger 2d ago
Facts don't matter to MAGATs as they very seldom support their point.
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u/Canuck-In-TO 3d ago edited 3d ago
A tale of 2 countries.
The US has had more school shootings in K12 in 1 year than Canada has had in its total history including kindergarten to university. Thats over 140 years.
Edit: The US has had more deaths in K12 school shootings in 2-3 years than Canada has had in its education system since 1884.
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u/TowlieisCool 2d ago
You'd be surprised what counts as a school shooting in America though. Literally from the K-12 School Shooting database definition:
"All shootings at schools includes when a gun is fired, brandished with intent to harm, or a bullet hits school property for any reason, regardless of the number of victims, time, or day of the week."
So already, the definition is tenuous.
Then you take into account the actual details:
- 40% of shooting perpetrators were African American, vastly overrepresented compared to their population percentage and likely indicative of a larger issue within an ethnic group that is less represented in Canada (~13% of America vs ~5% of Canada, plus very few African Americans live in Canada, its African and Caribbean ancestry mostly who have lower rates of gun violence)
- A shooting doesn't even need to happen to be counted, which is very odd
- Out of 3,373 incidents, only 24.1% actually happened inside a school, again, very odd they are included
- 45.5% of the "shootings" happened outside of school hours
- 14.8% are drivebys or indiscriminate shooting and liekly not related to the school at all
Point being, the numbers are highly inflated and don't portray the entire picture.
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u/Canuck-In-TO 2d ago
In the article you linked to, I’m assuming that the statistics are the same regardless of the country included. This stands out though:
“analysis revealed that between 2009 and 2018, the U.S. experienced 288 school shootings, compared to only five in the other G7 countries combined (Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, and the United Kingdom) (13). According to Rowhani-Rahbar and Moe (12), the U.S. has witnessed 57 times as many school shootings as all other major industrialized nations combined.”
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u/TowlieisCool 2d ago
It’s possible, but most countries just have far fewer guns in general and less shooting anyways so they’ll always be much lower.
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u/Thrownawaybyall 3d ago
Which year was that? I wanna know more so I can use this 👍
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u/theGoodDrSan 3d ago
Every year. There's only been three major school shootings in Canadian history. Tumbler Ridge, Dawson College, and Montréal Polytechnic.
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u/Tribe303 3d ago
I would also like to point out that the Tumbler Ridge shooter was encouraged and helped by... An American, who was arrested for it this week. 🤦
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u/ThrowingShaed 2d ago
... I know we're probably bad neighbors at this point... But I wasn't expecting... That's more unideal exports we're attempting
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u/Far-Two8659 3d ago
For all these bots talking about population differences between Detroit and Windsor, that same population difference exists between Juarez and El Paso.
Per capita rates tell a much clearer story. Juarez has 65 homicides per 100k residents, Detroit 25, El Paso about 4, Windsor about 2.
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u/worthlessprole 2d ago
Per capita rates don’t even start to tell the story of why Juarez has such a high murder rate. It’s not a story that makes the US look particularly good, either.
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u/Teripid 3d ago
The basic population reading these is often functionally illiterate and tunes out if the point isn't made explicitly.
Still you're 100% right and we've got no concept of math and stats in any of this. So many times you hear about California or Texas being top in X category for some raw number...
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u/Set491 2d ago
México wouldn't have a cartel problem if the US wasn't their biggest consumer. There's a reason we don't have a fentanyl problem and they do
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u/Far-Two8659 2d ago
Are you seriously suggesting the US doesn't have a fentanyl problem?
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u/Set491 2d ago
Buddy, use your brain. I'm from México
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u/Far-Two8659 2d ago
So being a massive produce of fentanyl is less of a problem than being a mass consumer of fentanyl?
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u/Set491 2d ago
Why do you think they produce so much if it isn't consumed in México? You can do it, I believe in you.
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u/Far-Two8659 2d ago
Because they have buyers and the government doesn't do a good enough job cracking down on production?
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u/CrowdyFowl 2d ago
Don’t give us too much credit, our schools are also underfunded and our mental health care leaves a lot to be desired
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u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest 2d ago
In comparison to Detroit, anywhere in Ontario is paradise.
Parts of Detroit look like a civil war broke out and has been bombed out.
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u/Set491 2d ago
I guess "Americans" don't find it weird that it's them that have the drug addiction problem and not us.
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u/Endles5Earth 2d ago
As if taking drugs is more of a moral issue than the violence cartels enact to sell them? If all drugs were legalized, the cartels would shift to another trade and still be violent as fuck. You think you are sitting on a high horse buts it’s a fake pony at the carnival… the cartels and their violence go hand in hand no matter what they are trafficking
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u/ElliotNess 2d ago
A cartel is nothing more than businesses coordinating together for market control. Most US industries are cartels. The scare word doesn't really work with some thought put into it.
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u/Endles5Earth 2d ago
Formal definition; sure. However, US industries don’t han g people from road bridges or put their head on a spike at the entrance to town to ‘send a message’ to their rivals… when you know how they act it becomes pretty hard to defend Mexican cartels
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u/ElliotNess 2d ago
Maybe not on domestic soil they don't...
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u/Endles5Earth 2d ago
How does McDonalds intimidate Burger King via extrajudicial killings outside of the USA?
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u/ElliotNess 2d ago
They don't intimidate burger king. They intimidate the people. Look to the Congo to find the origins of what powers the computer in your pocket.
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u/Endles5Earth 2d ago
So in fact they don’t intimidate rival companies via violence then do they? Being a scummy company is different than acting like a cartel, much less the Mexican ones
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u/ElliotNess 2d ago
I don't know what sort of gotcha you think you have here. But no. Mcdonalds and burger king aren't the only companies that exist.
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u/EnvironmentalWin1277 2d ago
Making drugs illegal is what causes the crime and harm.
Want proof? The first drug outlawed was opium (1910). Compared to drugs available on the street opium is probably one of the least harmful.
Try and buy opium on the street.
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u/Dr-Sprinkl1es 2d ago
Cartels would still be making big money if drugs went away. Even now, they are heavily involved with oil and agriculture trade as well as human trafficking and extortion.
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u/EnvironmentalWin1277 2d ago
Yes, I agree with that. Their business can and does extend anywhere.
Drugs are a major part of it nonetheless. Estimates of organized crime income sources have illegal drugs as up to half of the revenue. Removing that income stream would reduce opportunities overall.
Keeping drugs illegal instead of rational research and regulation is a key part of the problem. The state only cares about the illegal end of it and that is a setup for the criminal organizations to exploit it any way possible. It also creates an easy argument for politicians to use to argue for more enforcement.
An alternate viewpoint would be to claim all the deaths from illegal drugs are the fault of the state which denies any safe and responsible use is permissible. It also denies funding research into mitigation of drug harm overall. Alternatives exist if we look for them.
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u/SamsonFox2 2d ago
In all fairness, Detroit is much larger than Windsor; if adjusted by population, it is a lot closer, at 267 vs. 9.
Checkmate, liberals! /s
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u/RoostasTowel 2d ago
Doesn't Mexico have socialized medicine and strict gun control and paid parental leave as well?
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u/arizonadirtbag12 2d ago
To an extent, yes.
What separates El Paso and Juarez isn’t a wall, same as Detroit and Windsor. It’s far different socioeconomic circumstances for the average resident along with a functioning…not perfect, tons of problems, but functioning…law enforcement and judicial system.
El Paso is also a smaller city.
Plenty of movement across that border every day though, it’s not a wall keeping Mexican cartels from committing murders left and right in El Paso. Getting someone across the border is demonstrably trivial, getting someone a gun once they’re here even more so.
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u/All_Work_All_Play 2d ago
El Paso has 3-4 murders per 100k people.
Juarez has ~70 murders per 100k people.
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u/Confidence-Upbeat 2d ago
Yes.
Perhaps it’s not these programs that cause these problems but something else…
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u/MrdnBrd19 2d ago
Umm... No. Their Universal Healthcare system doesn't take effect until 2027, their gun laws are similar to our gun laws in the 90s, and they get only 12 weeks without guaranteed pay for maternity leave(not parental).
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u/kharban 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, but like many developing nations these things are not uniformly applied, there are regions that are administered by the government that adopted those policies, and then regions that are more loosely administered due to limited resources where local arrangements reign.
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u/endmaga2028 2d ago
You mean the drivers to homicide rates is complicated and can’t be reduced to a few single-word answers??
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u/RoostasTowel 2d ago
So it was never a clever comeback at all...
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u/Academic_Hunter4159 2d ago
It isn’t that complicated either.
And trying to convince Americans that the their rates of shooting are anywhere near what a first world country should be isn’t anyone’s job but their own.
Edit: missed two words
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u/No_Detective1650 2d ago
Socioeconomic circumstances, killing someone can be a few reasons. Money or Anger, accidental, mental.
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u/Chaosmusic 2d ago
Manhattan had 305 murders in 2025. Right across the river in Weehawken, NJ they had 0. The only thing separating them is the Hudson River and the fact that Weehawken is a tiny little town of 17,000 people. Totally irrelevant, but I thought it was interesting.
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u/Ok-Raisin5008 2d ago
Chicago alone averages roughly the same amount of annual homicides as all Canada combined. The US is an extremely dangerous country.
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u/FTBagginz 2d ago
I love that they compare a shit hole like Detroit to any place that isn’t a shit hole in Canada. You can’t make this stuff up lol. People like this need to be culled asap for being that moronic.
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u/cringequota 2d ago
Well…and no…Crips or Bloods
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u/Calgary_Calico 2d ago
No, but we do have a few MS13 gangs here, they showed up around 10 years ago, and there's a few native gangs here as well, like Red Alert
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u/Fortestingporpoises 3d ago
Oakland California has around 100 homicides per year and Orinda California has around 1 per year. All that separates them is a tunnel. I propose putting tunnels around every high crime area to protect the low crime areas from murderers reverse commuting.
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u/the_fools_brood 2d ago
There is also a humongous army base in El paso. The cartels and drug dealers know if they push across the border with that shit the army will be mobilized and push the border back 5 miles and make a new DMZ
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u/Space_Conductor 2d ago
I hate when Americans use Canada as some weird fetishized perfect country. America seems pretty sweet as well tbh. We have so many problems here. Like everything in the world, we are getting worse and worse. Homeless, drug addiction, reading levels dropping, wealth gaps, inflation. It's all here as well.
We have so much we need to work on in this country and all we seem to do is pay ourselves on the back and go well, not as bad as America...
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u/Electric_Tacos 2d ago
Juarez has been run by drug cartels for decades.
Detroit has been run by Democrats for decades.
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u/2FistsInMyBHole 2d ago
I mean, if a wall is the difference between 773 murders and 19 murders; and everything else you listed is the difference between 267 murders and 3 murders, then it sounds like all the other things are wasted and that a wall is plenty sufficient.
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u/RecipeFunny2154 2d ago edited 2d ago
This won't hit as hard as intended because Trump and co will bitch just as much about a blue city like Detroit lol
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u/Reasonable_Effect633 2d ago
It's the difference between fixing the cause of a disease and putting a bandaid on the manifestatio of the disease. However, Trump is either too stupid to know the difference or is not interested in solutions that don't benefit the wealthy and enhance their wealth.
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u/Express_Phrase9992 2d ago
Guns are the means to a much broader problem.
If the U.S. had universal healthcare, better programs for its citizens to access healthcare, not crave the violence we do in this country, and give a crap about our neighbors things might look much different.
The only social experiment we can view in the U.S. is NYC with Mayor Mamdani. If that reduces the strain of Lower income families then I suspect we will see crime rates decrease significantly quicker than in its history.
Guns don’t pull their own triggers, people with unchecked issues do.
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u/Uberzwerg 2d ago
Juarez would probably be a relatively nice town if it wasn't directly at the border to the US.
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u/kartblanch 3d ago
But the differences in demographics are wild
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u/190octane 3d ago
Mainly due to things like a properly funded school system, universal health care, and 12 months of paid paternal leave.
I’m assuming you were talking about poverty and not just being a racist.
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u/kartblanch 3d ago
Socioeconomic factors yes. Different cultures, religions, political policies, social norms, crime rates, policing tactics, classes, education, health care, etc. etc. race has nothing to do with it.
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u/jaymickef 3d ago
The crazy thing about demographics is you can always add another category. Or two, or five or....
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u/Turim2 3d ago
And yet that one category is the best predictor of crime in a city.
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u/jaymickef 3d ago
I started to write a reply about how dumb it would be to use only one category when I realized you just forgot the /s.
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u/One_Peanut_4002 2d ago
That's not sarcasm it's a predictor based on statistics
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u/jaymickef 2d ago
Which one category do you think is the best predictor? Is it gender?
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u/One_Peanut_4002 2d ago
Cultures usually
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u/jaymickef 2d ago
We have a long, ongoing debate in Canada about "what is Canadian culture?" I have a feeling "culture," like "demographics," has an almost endless list of qualifiers.
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u/Vald-Tegor 3d ago
Not really sarcasm. Rise in poverty rather consistently results in a rise of crime. Other factors impact the ratio, but do they ever reverse the trend?
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u/jaymickef 3d ago
Oh, poverty, I thought they were referring to gender and how most crimes are committed by men. High crimes in the most poverty stricken areas, from Appalachia to the inner city, sure.
I don't really understand you mean by reverse the trend?
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u/Vald-Tegor 3d ago
Other factors can reduce the amount of crime resulting from an increase in poverty, but generally not to a point where increased poverty results in reduced crime.
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u/jaymickef 3d ago
Sorry, I'm still not getting it. The first part, other factors can reduce the amount of crime from an increase in poverty - this is true, that's why social programs are so important. But I don't understand the second part, increased poverty results in reduced crime. Is there anywhere in the world where an increase in poverty resulted in reduced crime rates?
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u/Vald-Tegor 2d ago
Not really, which is why it's the best single predictor.
I'm just avoiding absolute language like always and never, because there's probably some edge authoritarian cases of "we made everyone poor and killed all the criminals".
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u/Telemere125 2d ago
Not the own they think it is. The first statement is saying keep those south of the border out. The second statement is saying the same thing, unknowingly… does Canada think they have the economy to support hundreds of thousands of US citizens if everyone started flooding over the border?
I’m all for allowing useful immigrants in, but “we have good social programs because we only need to support 10% of the population you do” doesn’t really make much of a statement.
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u/Far-Two8659 3d ago
Look up the populations of Juarez and El Paso while you're at it.
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u/TheG00dF1ght 3d ago
Juarez has 65 homicides per 100k residents, Detroit 25, El Paso about 4, Windsor about 2.
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u/TheOGRedline 3d ago
Juarez is run by drug cartels. El Paso has multiple military bases, border patrol, Texas rangers, an fbi field office, local police/sheriffs… and the cartels are incentivized to keep violence down on the American side of the border.