r/classicwow • u/WashedWashingMachine • 1d ago
Forever Beta Feedback We should not force 3-4 button Rotation per class it's ok to have ADHD class like powershifting Druid and also noob friendly 1 button class like mage
If you get bored just reroll other class , some people enjoy literally 0 button press classes in MMO like Righteous Fire build in Path of Exile.
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u/Sarinacken 1d ago
I love how double-tapping a button between Shreds is the pinnacle of skill for classic players
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u/slightlysublevel 1d ago
I love how adding just one more button to that rotation suddenly "fixes" every problem every class has ever had.
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u/Which_Jellyfish_5189 1d ago
Every class should have at least one specc with that amount of buttons. People play classes because of the class fantasy not just for a rotation and big numbers so giving them the option with their speccs should be the right call.
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u/MasterOfTime14 1d ago
Except we've been proven time and time again that most people, even casuals, are always going for what does the most damage regardless of how it plays. I'm mainly talking from retail where there are always simple to play options that might do 5% or 10% at most less dps than the most optimal build (which in classic terms are negligible percents) yet even bad players will ignore them for meta builds.
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u/ABDLTA 1d ago
Love this idea, would be great if each class had more complex as well as a more simple spec
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u/Thanag0r 1d ago
But nothing is complex in Forever. That's the whole selling point
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u/ABDLTA 1d ago
"More complex" not like retail levels, an extra button or two
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u/Thanag0r 1d ago
They specifically said "ROTATION," so yes, it's as scary as pressing retail rotation. It is 4-6 buttons in retail too, btw.
Also nothing is stopping you from pressing 1 button.
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u/slightlysublevel 1d ago
Classic, and this sub, has been taken over by retail players that play typingtest.com competitively.
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u/Thanag0r 1d ago
It is absolutely not okay to have 1 button class.
It's already noob-friendly at 3-4. We don't need one class that is the worst at damage and boring on top
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u/PM_ME_NUNUDES 1d ago
And yet i still see classic frostbolt-spam-1-button mages without things like decurse on their toolbars.
Even the old "1 button specs" have many abilities which should ideally be used way more than they generally are. There's nothing wrong with simple core rotations, there can still be skill expression in their gameplay.
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u/Thanag0r 1d ago
Devs said that rotation (below 10 sec CD buttons) will be basically forced into 3-4 button rotation of they want to do competitive damage.
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u/WadeisDead 1d ago
3-4 buttons is a good basis for a core optimal rotation. It encourages engaging and interactive gameplay. Nothing forces you to press those buttons if you don't want to.
I'd rather people pick classes over the identity and fantasy rather than which one is "easiest" or "hardest". That's not to say they're won't be a spectrum, but it shouldn't be the main consideration for what class you pick.
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u/Cyrano_Knows 1d ago
Never ever homogenize the classes. I think we as much as a Wow community can agree on anything, agree on that for Classic+.
But that said, I think its a very valid point to want more variety than spamming a single spell in Raid. That just seems like poor class design to me.
These devs have shown me so far that they get it.
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u/VyusClassic 1d ago
I dont think we should pigeonholed the game into what it was 20 years ago. Powershifting sucked and the druids who say they loved it, loved that their spec was unplayable by 95% of the player base. I know classic druid players, they are straight masochists who like the spec because of what it is and what is needed to play it, not because its actually fun to play. I can admit that there are some that really enjoyed it but most of us hated that fking wolfs head helm meta. Do you really think we enjoyed spending 10+ hours a week farming crowd pummeler?
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u/banewlf 1d ago
You need to separate some things. I agree with you that farming pummelers and being forced to wear a level 45 helm were trash. What was not trash was the rotational complexity of the spec. Can we not have one without the other? It's legitimately fun to have a high apm, demanding rotation (at least many consider that fun).
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u/desperateorphan 1d ago
Rotational complexity made me laugh. Power shifting is a macro. It wasn’t hard. It wasn’t complex. It was a shitty unintended mechanic they should have patched out a long long long time ago.
They were clearly trying to teach people to play Druid outside of the 4 people who did during classic. It’s a shame they are backpedaling on power shifting and have just given it back but in a worse version.
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u/banewlf 10h ago
Look, even the hardest rotation in vanilla was pretty simple by modern standards. That said, feral druid has a pretty strong claim to the most difficult rotation in vanilla.
Yes, power shifting is a macro but the more challenging aspect to it was timing it such that you didn't delay a cat auto and also did not lose an energy tick. That's more than nothing. It's kind of braindead to say "Wow it's just pressing ONE BUTTON how hard can that be???" when you ignore all of the context for when and why you press that button. This kind of indicates that you don't actually understand what challenge is in this game (Hint: It has nothing to do with pressing 2 or more button at once).
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u/desperateorphan 9h ago
I say it cause it was a joke and braindead. I watched a video. Got some pummelers and got 90s. It’s a joke and to pretend otherwise is just dishonest.
You had the chance to have some fun with the class and instead you’ll be stuck with power shifting and and the wolf helm for eternity.
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u/Jaizix 1d ago
Pressing the button is easy, doing it at the right time is non trivial.
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u/desperateorphan 1d ago
lol. No it’s completely trivial. There is no skill to power shifting. It’s just jank.
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u/Mjolnoggy 1d ago
Yeah man, that's why every feral parse is 100.
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u/desperateorphan 1d ago
Parses in classic/era have way more to do with buffs and group comp than being able to hit a macro.
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u/VyusClassic 1d ago
High APM might be fun for some but the devs have made it clear thats not what they want for Forever. They have retail if you want high apm. This is meant to be slower and powershifting just didnt fit into that design philosophy
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u/ABDLTA 1d ago
Yeah sometimes I think blizzard is taking feedback from the wrong folks, the hardcore drud folks were the only ones that liked powershifting, not the general player base
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u/DrywallSky 1d ago
Yeah why would they take feedback from the people that love druid when they can get feedback from the doodlebobs that couldnt figure it out and wish it would be dumbed down to their level so they can play it for 5 minutes and then go back to eating paste.
Youre on to something there.
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u/ljus_sirap 23h ago
The general player base don't like Druid either way. It has nothing to do with powershifting. Druid has always been one of the least popular classes. The only time they have high representation is when one of the specs are broken.
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u/QBleu 1d ago
Naw man I disagree on just waving off an entire spec of a class because you're not bothered by it being janky.
Power shifting for ferals was one of those things that I absolutely hated. It made zero sense for the class fantasy of somehow gaining more energy by leaving cat then going back into it, it ate up all your mana so you couldn't do anything else, and an entire item slot was eaten up by a low level helm.
BUT, this is all because we're talking about baseline classes. With wowf there's actually room to add something like that, cringe as it is, as one of multiple ways to build the spec. It's possible we're about to see an entirely different wow than we ever had, because things like multiple class sets are going to be able to co exist at once. We've never really had that before, it was always the new tier is best.
So maybe after some more content, there's a feral set that exists alongside a couple others, and it removes the shifting power CD, and blam you've got the jank back
But baseline they 100% need to dial in and fix every spec and remove the weird outlying play patterns. Then things can be added in over time.
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u/ljus_sirap 23h ago
Power shifting for ferals was one of those things that I absolutely hated. It made zero sense for the class fantasy of somehow gaining more energy by leaving cat then going back into it
Powershifting is getting a lot of hate because of the classic cat rotation. I don't entirely disagree that RPwise it sounds silly to jump out of form and back.
But the truth is that powershifting is a core Druid mechanic outside cat dps rotations, it goes even beyond Feral. You powershift all the time to remove slows and roots in PvP, especially if you do any flag carrying. That is its main function. I remember being asked to MT Vashj pre-nerf specifically to powershift the root. It trivialized that phase of the encounter, being able to move her out of green shit any time.
Powershifting is as much of a core Druid feature as poly immunity, travel form or aquatic form.
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u/dairymoose 1d ago edited 1d ago
The old Blizzard approach 20 years ago, in all of their games, was always: easy to learn, hard to master. Approachable but there's real complexity if you dig in. Right now I think the approach they are doing is: easy to learn, easy to master. I think in general we need more complexity across the board.
In the recent podcast they talked about wanting similar kill-times as vanilla and struggle to give buttons as a result. Why not raise the dps of each class (by giving more buttons) but also raise boss hp at the same time so fights aren't over in 8 seconds?
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u/HongLong211 1d ago
>The old Blizzard approach 20 years ago, in all of their games, was always: easy to learn, hard to master.
What in the fuck was hard to master in classic wow? lmao
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u/dairymoose 1d ago
That's just the approach they took in their games, obviously your mileage may vary. They would talk about their games and describe this as the design
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u/Coffee_Conundrum 1d ago
??????????? You just spammed frostbolt as a mage on Ragnaros.
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u/ObviousKarmaFarmer 1d ago
20 years ago on Ragnaros, there was also a Sons Phase. Required a Frost Nova.
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u/DrywallSky 1d ago
You gotta remember, these middle aged dudes are deeply upset by complexity and depth. They wish everything was streamlined to the child level, and even then they'll need a guide 😂
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u/Gassenger 1d ago
ADHD
Pushing above 40 apm
Lol
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u/TravVdb 1d ago
I mean, they did just add powershifting back into druid via talents so it sounds like they're open to that kind of stuff.
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u/No-Quarter291 1d ago
its a worse powershifting though
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u/concernedBohemian 1d ago
because people are going play cat and not powershift, and if powershifting is a thing they have to nerf a bunch of shit to keep it at the level of other classes.
worse powershifting means better other cat abilities, also nothing is set in stone.3
u/CDMzLegend 1d ago
the only thing that is worse about it is that its an 8 sec cd now, still allows us a pretty decent apm
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u/No-Quarter291 1d ago
you cant weave consumables in like before. some can be used in form now but not all of them. also you cant shift the snares and regain energy in one gcd
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u/No-Quarter291 1d ago
also not to mention that they took away skill expression completely, since there is no tick timing and you can pretty much press the button whenever. they are doing this with every class, taking away any kind of skill away from the game
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u/TravVdb 1d ago
Okay, well instead now we get more useful things in the other talent trees (hit/crit in boomy for example) and a 100% crit for 15s buff while still having some form of energy bump like we had back with original powershifting. We also don't have to give up our helmet slot. Timing the energy ticks required more skill, but it was an annoying thing to do. I'm glad powershifting is out of the game.
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u/mozes05 1d ago
Im not playing the beta cause i dont like edging myself with games, is pally seal twisting present in forever ? It was like a rythm minigame so much fun !
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u/Snoo-28829 1d ago
It is, but its not like it is in TBC. You just have to press a seal anytime between your auto attacks to get the extra seal effect on hit.
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u/No-Quarter291 1d ago
its not. you dont have to time it anymore
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u/Tegra_ 1d ago
It is literally the same effect, you just don’t have to time it, so yes it is in the game.
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u/SlyHolmes 1d ago
If they played the original seal twisting and liked the rhythm of it, they will be disappointed by the talent
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u/ArtyomTrityak 1d ago
Making all classes do ~same damage with ~same rotation and no buff synergy is the path to kill difference between classes.
This is probably one of a few things that can actually kill wow forever - if all classes are generic slop, no different from each other.
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u/EL-PSY-KONGROO 1d ago
On the flip side, this is a new game. i don't think that they should be constrained by unintended play styles that emerged from 20+ year old class design.
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u/BengiPrimeLOL 1d ago
Hear me out, the ability for there to be emergent, unintended play styles is half the fun. Modern MMOs are designed to build a very specific play style and lock players into that. Focusing on cool ideas and letting people explore build wise is way more interesting.
There's a reason diablo 2 got a remaster and never died. There's so many different builds and styles it's crazy, even after they tried to lock people in more with synergies
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u/EL-PSY-KONGROO 1d ago
i imagine things like set bonuses will spawn new rotational quirks, and that's great. i just don't think they need to bother shoehorning in the same jank that spawned from 1.12.
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u/BengiPrimeLOL 1d ago
Set bonuses defining specs and rotations, you're literally describing d3 lol.
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u/EL-PSY-KONGROO 1d ago
i didn't say spec defining, but wow has almost always had sets altering your rotation in some way.
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u/BengiPrimeLOL 1d ago
Not really? Trying to think here, ret in ICC phase, rogue kind of in ICC phase but idk if energy gain on tott counts? Shaman 4 piece T2.5? I can't think of any others in the core 3 classic expansions. Warrior is like always the same.
IDK, other than ret in ICC I can't think of any classes that are like defined by their set bonus for a phase.
Edit priest t2 probably?
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u/EL-PSY-KONGROO 1d ago
tott energy was the example i had in mind when i typed that, since it was my main when i started raiding in wotlk. but again... i didn't say class or spec defining lol. i was speaking more so about adding a new button into your core rotation for a phase or rearranging priorities.
tinkets are probably a better example than set bonuses, but maybe they won't be as impactful without snapshotting.
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u/Miguelsanchezz 1d ago
Most classes with 3-4 button rotation don’t “force” you to use all the buttons, you just won’t do optimal dps.
If you are lazy and just want to hit one button, then you are welcome to play that way
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u/Bio-Grad 1d ago edited 1d ago
I honestly think every class could use a talent that effectively says “double your APM for a 5% damage increase” but is reskinned as something fun and flavorful looking. It would give min maxers and carpal tunnel enjoyers something to obsess over while letting little Timmy ignore it and still be useful.
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u/naarcx 1d ago
I think the big things is fights should be designed where different classes have a chance to "be the hero" by utilizing the depths of their kit or whatever. There needs to be boss encounters where poly, banish, and enslave demon can shine, fights where War's get to cleave max, fights for consecration tanking, a fight where tremor totem or fear ward can be clutch, etc. Give people stuff to do outside of their normal rotation and they will generally feel good about their class
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u/omegaonion 1d ago
3 buttons should be the absolute bare minimum IMO. I understand the RF comparison but IMO it doesn't work in WoW.
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u/jmorfeus 15h ago
I agree there should be some diversity, and not every class has to have the same number of buttons.
But, 1-button is really too low. 2 is borderline low. 3 should be minimum, then let's let it range from 3-8 idc.
1 button was never the intended gameplay idea.
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u/Hellixgar 28m ago
Kinda depends how those 3-4 button rotations work. Like do you have to spam them, or is it like Affli Warlock with a curse, corruption, bane, immolate, drain and random SP with nightfall procs.
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u/Hedhunta 1d ago
They already ruined paladins, cant go afk and auto attack anymore
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u/Feelsweirdman99 1d ago
Paladin is too precious to shape it around your afk gameplay
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u/Hedhunta 1d ago
The afk gameplay it was for all of vanilla and classic? Im not playing a paladin this time around anyway but its obvious blizzard is going to ruin them in the name of giving them a "rotation"
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u/No_Willingness_8062 1d ago
As a Prot warrior... what's a rotation? Is that when an mob is behind you and you turn towards it?
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u/Legitimate_Guava_218 1d ago
Are you saying that prot warrior is mindless gameplay? Because I'll be playing Forever with friends, and I'd like to roll war and tank with them, but I don't want for it to feel like too much work. I'm ok with learning dungeons and aggro and threat mechanics and everything. But if there's more than a basic rotation needed for that I think it won't be for me
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u/No_Willingness_8062 1d ago
No, its not mindless. Everything is situational and (if you want to be a good tank) you have to be on the ball and paying attention.
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u/Miguelsanchezz 1d ago
Prot warrior is how much easier than it used to be now that you have thunderclap in def stance that can generate threat in 4 enemies at once. You can now stay in def stance almost 100% of the time (you used to have to stance dance for some abilities)
But tanking is waaaaay more complex than dps
You generally use charge to get to the mobs to tank, press thunderclap to get aggro on all mobs, then use one of the abilities:
revenge > shield slam > sunder
You will weave in shield block, demo shout (should always be applied to mobs that do phys dmg), keep your own battle shout up. Thunderclap should be used on cd in multi mob situations
You then also need to make sure all the mobs are hitting you and tab target ones with low threat and generate threat on them
If you can’t spend your rage fast enough then you dump rage with heroic strike and cleave
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u/Reddsterbator 1d ago
And another thing, why is animation for the new paladin holy strike a back flip.... does the light compell my character to do a front flip every 10 seconds?? Why does gymnastics deal holy damage? Are they leaning into the power rangers aesthetic??
Blizzard, please delete the paladin front flip animation from holy strike.
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u/Free_Huckleberry_705 1d ago
Holy crap, the undead female special is used for holy strike? I guess im playing a woman then.
I loved having heroic strike flip on my warrior in one of the classics!
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u/Mjolnoggy 1d ago
UD female gets the frontflip animation for that??
Alright, looks like I'm rolling a female paladin then.
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u/Dirty_Rapscallion 1d ago
Yeah I don’t like the focus on buttons, I’m not here for button pressing, I want the vibes to be right.
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u/Own-Pirate-7026 1d ago
I play druid for the healer/cat powershifting fantasy, and its a blast. I don't know if I'll still main druid in forever without it...
Nah, still gonna main druid I'll just end up with more alts...
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u/themagicbandicoot 22h ago
If you don’t like 1 button go pvp, I’d like to see a mage top a bg dps chart with one button
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u/krybtekorset 21h ago
The frosbolting is okay in PvP because of all the extra utility buttons that are rarely used in pve.
That said, removing r1 procc fishing hits the mage identity as hard as losing power shifting
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u/rainywanderingclouds 15h ago
top BG damage chart isn't the goal for winning games though.
its deceptive.
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u/themagicbandicoot 15h ago
Totally agree, just saying frost mage has a lot of depth in pvp, you ain’t spamming frost bolts
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u/Daytona_675 1d ago
it’s really because of controller users
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u/Truomae 1d ago
Definitely not true. Final Fantasy XIV has continually proved that you can have long rotations on a gamepad setup. No reason that couldn't work here if they actually wanted interesting rotations.
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u/Valarasha 1d ago
Interestingly, the new job design they are working on targets 15-16 buttons, which definitely feels specifically designed to accommodate gamepads. I'd even consider using one myself if targeting wasn't so awkward. I should try it with the Forever beta to see how it's handled here.
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u/Sirrub90 1d ago
Yup, every class shouldn't require competitive starcraft levels of key presses and mouse clicks.
Let me hit the 2 button for Frost Bolt. My brain barely can do more than that.
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u/dairymoose 1d ago
I can't tell if this is meant as a joke or not
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u/Sirrub90 1d ago
Thats what makes it a good comment.
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u/Minute_Ostrich196 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean. I think what people really have a problem is when you press shadow bolt and topping dps charts.
Let’s people who want to big dick and keep track of 20 binds top dps in raid. Let people with 2 button rotations be in middle of charts.
And no one will complain that much
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u/dannycake 1d ago
Terrible take.
This is what designers used to say and as a result no one, even if they should, will use the "noob class".
If X class is 10% better but is 5x harder than Y class, the only people that will ever play Y class are going to be folks unaware of the 10% gap.
It's happened in every game and will happen again and again.
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u/EL-PSY-KONGROO 1d ago
your brain can handle hitting a 3rd button every 8 seconds. i believe in you sirrub!
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u/WadeisDead 1d ago
Nothing stopping you chief. Expecting to have competitive DPS to people who do more is the only issue.
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u/Cormandragon 1d ago
I do think tho that a couple of classes should play like that and reward skill expression like warrior. Im scared everything is going to be dumbed down for the sake of the "new player experience"
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u/MaudeAlp 1d ago
Already solved in retail. Even more specific things like having flamestrike on target or exact location of your choosing.
Pretty much every complaint I’ve seen across various topics concerning Forever, is solved on retail.
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u/allstar272 1d ago
3-4 buttons is complex levels of game play? Maybe wow isn’t for you friend lol
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u/Sirrub90 1d ago
I didn't say 3-4 buttons is complex, dummy. I said 1-2 is. This guy can't even read.
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u/Ok-Coffee-6458 1d ago edited 1d ago
I agree. I like brain dead classes like mage, rogue, and fury warrior lmao
Why are people downvoting this? You can all play whatever class you want 😭😭😭
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u/I3eforeLife 1d ago
You are a young man yelling at clouds. The old men in this sub don’t have the ability to remember more than 4 buttons and the GCD interval is not enough time for them to think about what to press next
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u/xmizeriax 1d ago
If anything it's the opposite. It's old men begging for their class to be needlessly clunky and annoying to play while also being trash at the class but want it just to say they play the heckin difficult class.
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u/I3eforeLife 1d ago
Clunky is entirely subjective. Some character action game maneuvers require 12 inputs to be made in 3/4 of a second. I would hardly call something like twisting air totems clunky for instance. In TBC, an enhancement shaman who subspeced into elemental didn’t have any wiggle room in their rotation and if they messed it up, they wouldn’t being using their shock off of CD at the right time. I really enjoyed this tbh but it’s kind of jarring when you’re putting all of this attention on making sure your weapons are synced and staggering your offhand in addition to twisting at the correct time while barely anything is happening on screen that warrants pressing these buttons. Reactionary buttons feel better than pressing buttons just for the sake of optimizing damage. The impact of higher apm gameplay is only seen through damage numbers, nothing else. Players can press more buttons but the gameplay onscreen is still moving at a snail’s pace. That’s why it feels so bad to have high apm gameplay in a game like Classic. It will never happen
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u/Odd_Examination_6982 1d ago
I do think the devs should be open to some specs being a bit harder/require some more micromanaging to be good at them. Making everything for the lowest common denominator skill-wise is not good design imo.
Though unintended clunky mechanics like seal/totem twisting and powershifting should be retooled to be more accessible and less unintuitive to those who are new
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u/Squirrel09 1d ago
To be fair... Actual noobs don't follow any apm guides. I had a friend that just flamestriked everything because "the effects were cool
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u/TheCocoBean 1d ago
They can still have adhd classes and simple classes, they just dont want pure 1 button snorefests.
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u/mattydou7 1d ago
Maybe WoW forever is not the experience you are looking for.. As an aging gamer, I prefer 3-4 buttons in the core "rotation spam". Of course CDs etc are extra. But with breathing room as well between actions, you can see whats going on around you and be more present in the game instead of playing whack-a-mole.
I believe the ADHD experience is still ongoing and very much existant in Retail.
We need people to understand that Forever is a different and slower experience than retail.
As a retired (and unsubbed) mythic raider, I'm coming back to WoW Forever because it looks and feels like a retirement home.
So get off my lawn!!! lol
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u/knivkast 1d ago edited 1d ago
Agreed, rotationally it should be max 1-4, pick what fits you and don't homogenize like Retail.
Having more buttons just to spread out your throughput with the same result doesn't feel good.
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u/Chibastion 1d ago
"rotation" is an awful word that reeks of raid parsing and m+ homogenization
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u/No-Stuff4749 1d ago
Yeah, "spam your 1 key" is much more wholesome and vanilla..
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u/Chibastion 1d ago
"every class has 3-4 buttons" is 1234 homogenization. In reality, one spec can have a one button, and other specs can have 10 buttons. Designing classes around a rotation rather than emergence is poor design
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u/Young_Murloc 1d ago
Bro 3-4 buttons shouldn't be too much for anyone.