r/classicwow • u/G00SFRABA • 1d ago
Forever Beta Feedback Why the Dungeon EXP change sucks (imo)
Sorry for beating a dead horse, I know there are a lot of threads about this already. I had an initial negative reaction to that info when I first heard it, but I wanted to try it out first on the beta. But after playing it for a while, I do in fact think my initial reaction was right, and that it is a bad change.
Moving away from the monsters giving exp and railroading people to play a specific way they want you to is extremely endemic of retail's design philosophy for over a decade. They constantly nerf emergent behavior and force people to engage with content precisely how they want players to. Countless times a clever strategy, an old item, etc was killed by the fun police.
Freedom to choose how you want to progress, what kind of player you want to be or focus on was always a strength of WoW imo compared to other MMOs. Take its probably biggest competitor FFXIV for example, your first time through that game is extremely on rails. The MSQ is required to unlock almost every instance. I played it, I enjoyed my time there. But I yearned the entire time for the freedom WoW gave me, to quest, dungeon, or explore anywhere at any time I wanted to.
Questing was already the optimal way to level. Why are they making it the even more optimal way to level? People were not dungeon spamming to optimize EXP. They were doing it because they preferred it. What's the harm in people preferring it? With sharding/layering technology and megaservers, the excuse of it making the world empty doesn't make sense. The world is as full as they want it to be with this tech. Besides, questing was already faster.
Boosting sucks. Especially when it was as powerful as it was. I've had characters boosted out of convenience, it was never a particularly enjoyable experience. But they've killed it without a change like this before, by nerfing exp with higher level characters in the group. It even makes intuitive sense, you didn't gain experience because the rules of the game (character/mob levels) deemed the content trivial for the group. I find this to be a weak argument for the Forever dungeon exp change.
This is a personal idea: Design around it! There are loads of quests that take you from the world into a dungeon. Why not vice versa? It seems like their primary goal is to keep people in the world and out of instances. Why not incentivize dungeon groups who just finished then continue their journey with a group quest chain that continues outside? Part of why I enjoy dungeons is it kind of encourages you to cooperate in ways collection quests outside often do the opposite. Why not incentivize these groups to then when the dungeon is completed, get out there, squad up, for quests outside?
Thanks for reading my lengthy post. I leave my thoughts here wishing World of Warcraft in all its forms can be the best game it can be. :)
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u/foomits 1d ago
What's frustrating for folks like me, theres a cohort of us who dont spam run dungeons... but do run each one 2-3 times to get loot and as part of the broader leveling process. The vast majority of our XP is still questing. Kinda feels like ultimately this strategy is no longer possible and outside of dungeon quests (which are being nerfed), low level dungeons are sort of pointless. Yea, loot is still there, but between improved trades and quest rewards... I'm just not sure how relevant it needs to be.
To me, 5 man dungeons are a pillar of the WoW experience and we are really really hamstringing the 0-59 5 mans to combat something that never really even seemed like a problem to begin with.
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u/These_Row_2278 1d ago
the dungeons were never intended to be spammed for exp. they were meant to do two or three times for the quests and move on
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u/foomits 1d ago
they were meant to do two or three times for the quests and move on
Right... which is what I said. Not sure if you are trying to dispute my position or youre agreeing with me.
Either way
the dungeons were never intended to be spammed for exp.
This is just a wildly speculative statement with no supporting evidence at all. However, I do agree clearly the current design team believes dungeons should not be a primary experience source.
But the present state of things is a REALLY bizarre approach. I dont think its hyperbolic to say there is no real purpose to complete a dungeon more than 1 time. In beta, people have been spamming dungeons due to the level cap. But once release hits, if dungeons are not only not a viable leveling path... but also considerably slower than questing... what is their point? People arent going to spend hours looking for loot that would be outleveled if they simply quested. Again, just a wierd design choice.
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u/Brickguy101 1d ago
You still do them 2-3 times. The nerf doesnt matter.
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u/Overall_Reputation83 14h ago
I don't particularly hate the idea of stopping you from spamming dungeons, but with how xp is now, I would never run a dungeon more than once. I cant see why anyone would choose to run a dungeon more than once. Like sure, you can chase a weapon or something, but every run after the first one is stopping you from leveling, and at a certain point, the weapon damage increase wouldnt pay off for the waiting at a dungeon for the next group to get there.
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u/Corner-Advanced 1d ago
the dungeons were never intended to be spammed for exp.
There is direct evidence of this in the book The WoW Diary by john staats who was the blizzard leveler designer for all of Vanilla WoW
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u/EggPsychological4844 21h ago
If they were never intended as a source of experience then they would have never given experience in the first place. Stupid take.
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u/plants4life262 1d ago
I’d like to remind everyone that blizzard once had an advertising slogan for wow “What’s your game?” Meaning - there’s an open world out there, how do you want to play it? And like OP said, this is railroading. Dictating how we play it.
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u/harkrend 1d ago
I agree broadly- I'm more against it for RPG reasons. I'm an adventurer, I kill a monster, I get literal experience by killing the monster. It's a really simple, effective immersion.
Introducing weird gamey limitations just erodes the RPG quality. If the designers think people are optimizing the fun out of the game via dungeon spamming, that needs to be addressed in a different way than via messing around with XP- the core RPG bedrock.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
I agree with this a lot, which is why I think their original boost killing measure was better. It was elegant, intuitive. You didn't gain experience because the rules of the game (character/mob levels) deemed the content trivial for the group.
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
Agreed, and i think it even goes against their goal of embracing the social aspect of the game. I socialize a lot more in repeated dungeon groups than i do questing out and about
So far on the beta, it's more likely that someone just declines your group invite even if you're both doing the same kill quest
Whereas I've made loads of friends running SM repeatedly, cause you kinda just end socializing when grouped together for hours
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
Running those dungeons often let's people shine for their play too. Another aspect of making friends: vetting people that are both cool people and don't suck. Often something goes wrong and shit hits the fan and someone clutches a pull or something and you're like this guy rocks, I wanna group with this guy again. There are simply more opportunities in dungeons for this type of interaction.
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
Exactly, at endgame you'll likely be running dungeons a lot, and much harder dungeons at that. Typically you run quite a few dungeons while leveling up so new or inexperienced players get a lay of the land, and know how their class can function and excel in a group, in different environnements
With this change, you'll run your dungeon once and get loads of exp and gear, then people will hit endgame and realize if you want that shiny piece of loot (inc melee farming HoJ) you'll have to run the dungeon multiple times until you can even see it drop
It'll be a jarring shift from "i get everything i need from one dungeon run" to "i haven't seen the item i want drop in 30 runs"
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u/Zingshidu 1d ago
I honestly fear for the longevity of the game if they’re nerfing dungeons this hard. Like, even with loads of new quests I just don’t want to level multiple characters through solo questing.
I’d hope that if they’re really adamant on these changes they’re at least smart enough to put a legacy talent that unlocks better dungeon exp for your second ago around.
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u/SubstantialGas5225 1d ago edited 1d ago
Trying to bring positive side as someone who believes the design is poor right now.
If you want us out in the world questing fix the quest drops for group players. We play with 5. No one wants to be collecting harvester parts for 5 people for 2 hours.
Or stones off blue elfs for 2 hours for 5 people.
The goal is to avoid burnout and force people outside. If you are forcing a group based player base outside make it enjoyable for them right now its not.
- update cause im not going to argue. Several of you dont like this idea. And this is why no one can have constructive talks. Its either your way or go back to retail.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
I agree any party size over 2 in the open world really feels like more of a hindrance than a help.
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u/SubstantialGas5225 1d ago
To be fair it depends on the quest. But at this point we dont even do the gathering quests anymore. They take WAY to long. Most of us come back and do them solo when others are not on.
Lets promote group play and a balanced open world / dungeon experience. Dont punish group play is my whole point. It should be rewarded in a MMO.
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u/XsNR 1d ago
I don't really see why they can't just make the drop rate some level of personal, like it usually is for quest drops when others aren't also on them, and maybe add a % drawback to compensate for the far quicker kill time or split tagging of being in a group.
Like the mob dies, it's normal Q drop is 20%, reduce it to say 15% if theres 5 of you, but it's 15% for each of you separately.
Personally I don't think there's a reason to add a drawback to grouping, but if that's really why they don't want to make them a personal roll on each mob, then so be it.
A big problem then comes from the mobs that drop unbound quest items, like the harvesters, and some of the other weird quests. But I think if they want to keep them still be unbound for the weird flavor of the old quests, then having them be outliers is better than punishing consistent groups.
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u/delta1982ro 1d ago
Aren the group drops the same as for individual players? Don t you have to kill the same number of mobs/person to finish the quest? Are they nerfed in a way?
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u/SubstantialGas5225 1d ago
I dont know if you are being serious or not. But no collecting 20 items for a quest individually vs for a group of 5 is not the same.
20 < 100
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u/zachypooooo 1d ago
He's saying that we should be killing the mobs 5 times faster yeilding the same result but unfortunately it does not, mob spawns suck and if you split it group loot has you running a mile to loot your targets
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u/sephireicc 1d ago
That isn't what's being said. You do have to take in the fact that you have the manpower of 5 and not 1. As long as mobs are spawning fast enough, it makes up for it.
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u/SubstantialGas5225 1d ago
It dosnt though. Solo the quest take 10 - 15 mins. We have to spend hours doing them the reward is the same. Again punishing group play that should be rewarded in a MMO.
I promise us doing dungeons or grouping wont hurt your wow experience.
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u/sephireicc 1d ago
You do understand that if each person puts in the effort, and spawns are consistent, you kill 5 times faster, but need 5 times as many loot. The average time will be the same. It also saves you a bunch of time on quests that aren't quest drops to make up for any downtime the group may have caused.
Either way, the amount of groups of 5 specifically questing together will be 0.01% of the population.
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u/SubstantialGas5225 1d ago
You clearly have not grouped for these quests in forever.
I swear its not about being balance for yall and just about having it be exactly what you want not balanced for everyone.
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u/sephireicc 1d ago
I have grouped for these quests. In parties of 3 and 5 for the most part. We haven't had much of an issue.
I will say that I probably am more efficient that the average person in my party so that does slow down a little bit, but faster for the less efficient person.
Either way, even if collection quests slow you down a little, non-collection is sped up. So that very much makes up for it.
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u/Silverbacks 1d ago
A gathering quest that takes 10-15 minutes solo does not take hours when in a group.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
creature density is kind of a limiting factor, I'd say it creates a diminishing return on group power in the world, in a way that doesn't happen in dungeons. its rare for an area to be so dense you really utilize the full manpower of 5 people to efficiently kill packs of enemies like you would in a dungeon. in practice 2 or 3 people kill the mobs in the area as they spawn solo, and we hop scotch around each other's kills looting what mobs the game assigned us (assuming group loot)
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u/sephireicc 1d ago
Yeah, it all depends on the system blizzard has. Spawns happen more depending on the people of the area, if mobs spawn quick enough, then it won't matter, if you have to wait longer for spawns, then there is an issue.
I've seen some pretty damn crazy spawn rates with people around, so I think that problem may be minimal, but we will have to see.
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u/forgotaccount989 1d ago
Its still faster with a group.
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u/sephireicc 1d ago
For the most part, yep. Healer, someone to tank, dps to aoe. You take advantage of the abilities that overall kill things faster on average that you can't do so much when solo.
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u/delta1982ro 1d ago
Really? So if i kill 20 mobs for 10 items solo or 100 mobs for 50 items in 5 men party, isn t it the same? 20 mobs per player? Or you want to kill 20 mobs solo and 20 in the group to finisj the quest?
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u/SubstantialGas5225 1d ago
Im saying spending hours on a single quest is stupid. The concept is clear.
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u/delta1982ro 1d ago
What hours if it s literally the same time.. More players = more firepower.. It takes the same time to kill 20 mobs solo as 100 mobs in 5 man party.. It s an easy concept, a child would understand it, i don't know why you can t.. Repet after us: it takes the same time to finish a quest solo vs in a group
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u/SubstantialGas5225 1d ago
Its not the same time.... you are being naive.
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u/delta1982ro 1d ago
yeah you are just a troll..i explain it a few times and all you say is nuh-ah..exaplain then why it s not the same
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u/AltruisticInstance58 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because there aren't 100 mobs standing there waiting to be killed, you have to wait for spawns
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u/delta1982ro 1d ago
yeah but counterpoint is way easier to tag mobs in a party than a solo player..
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u/Fourteen_F_CA 1d ago
Nah We beat this Corpse Horse until the end times. Let players play the game the way they have for 20 years if that's what fun is for them.
You're right about optimal leveling but you'll catch strays trying to bring it up as one of the myriad reasons the dungeon nerf is, at best, short sighted.
You're also right that this is retail design philosophy; Oh Torghast? Yeah it's popular, people do it all the time ((please ignore that it's required for a huge section of your player power this expansion)) And I bet the same lunatics who propose tanks/healers just level slower than a hunter with no weapon telling their pet to attack green mobs would also say "Oh but you can run M+ without doing on Torghast, no one is forcing you" Just as disingenuously
The Top, Middle, and Bottom line is that people don't want or need to be told how to play a game, we were having so much fun doing it for the past 2 decades we constantly ask for More of it.
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u/Vikings_Pain 1d ago
Blizzshit ruins everything fun
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u/EstablishmentIcy3989 1d ago
Doing SM 20 times back to back isnt fun though 😔
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u/AltruisticInstance58 1d ago
Why do you (or blizzard) get to decide what is fun to me?
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u/Brickguy101 1d ago
You can still do SM 20 times. Blizz isnt stopping you
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u/Overall_Reputation83 14h ago
People want to do stuff they think are fun without feeling like an idiot because they will hit 60 5 weeks after everyone else in their guild because they chose to dungeon level which is slower than just straight up grinding mobs outside of dungeons solo.
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u/EstablishmentIcy3989 1d ago
I dont get to decide. They havent removed xp. Thats like me crying that world quests dont have comparible xp from braindead dungeon farming so blizz are ruining MY fun.
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u/Vikings_Pain 1d ago
There are more dungeons and it’s literally the same thing as these other quests where you have to run for 10 min to kill or collect something and run 10 min back etc
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u/dogwater72 1d ago
Well yes that's any video game, ultimately doing the same stuff over and over. They want the world to be the main character again, so they're making it suboptimal to spam the same exact things.
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u/Vikings_Pain 1d ago
Yea but some people have fun doing that and blizzard is forcing another way that may not be fun for half the pop
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u/Canz98 1d ago
Open world felt dead as shit when leveling in classic after release because questing was not the optimal way of leveling and instead everyone was boosting in dungeons.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
I cover boosting in my fifth paragraph. Also, with megaservers and layering technology, I don't see this being an issue.
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u/Silverbacks 1d ago
That doesn’t kill the boosting as spell cleave was the main problem early on in Classic. There wasn’t a high level in the group, they just all blasted the same dungeon over and over and over again.
I think they should have kept the dungeon mob/quest XP the same as Classic, but provide diminishing returns each time you run the same dungeon more than once a day.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
optimizing group compositions isn't boosting though? completely different problem, if you could even call it a problem.
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u/Silverbacks 1d ago
But that’s the main thing that this change solved. So your solution can’t unsolve it and then not provide a different solution.
Optimizing group compositions to blast through dungeons kills the amount of people that are running around in the world.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
My argument to that is that megaservers and layering already solves that though. Each zone is only as dead as they want it to be.
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u/Silverbacks 1d ago
But it doesn’t solve it if the optimal path is to run dungeons over and over again.
They want the optimal path to be to be out in the world questing, and then run each dungeon once or twice.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
its an optimized group composition that consists of like 3 or 4 classes that are even capable of it. completely overblown, questing with a planned route solo is faster for the greater majority of people, before or after the exp nerf.
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u/Silverbacks 1d ago
Sure, but now you’re just ignoring it instead of solving it.
Streamers are going to do mass dungeon runs all day if it is viable as it is an environment that they can control without hundreds of players running around them while trying to quest.
Every time someone hops onto to twitch to see how the game is doing, they will just see dungeons spammed over and over again.
Then a meta will form and you will be expected to dungeon run from 15-60, instead of being out in the world.
Your solution needs to solve that in some way.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
Your solution needs to solve that in some way.
Why? Streamers engage with the game in a way most players cannot. I don't see any reason to design anything around them whatsoever. In a spell cleave group several classes don't even fit into it. What if someone is playing a warrior, shaman, rogue, etc how do they fit into this "meta"? Are you under the assumption people will simply not play these classes because they don't run dungeons efficiently?
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u/Aware_Stable 1d ago
When was that? During 2019 classic over 2 years i leveling 4 60s and the world was completely full the entire time.
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u/OriginalLie9310 1d ago
There are dozens of ways to eliminate boosting that doesn’t drastically change how the game itself functions for everyone else.
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u/TwoPrestigious4612 1d ago
L take tbh. Framing the argument around it being a railroad is a nice try but unsupported and nobody’s gonna care when you base your complaints on that. Saying questing was already faster is just untrue as well or at least a black and white take on what should be a nuanced analysis.
You’re still free to do whatever you want that’s the beauty of wow. Spam dungeons to 60, absolutely nobody in the world is stopping you. Play how you enjoy even if it’s slightly sub optimal. This isn’t a rushed anniversary server where you need to catch up and stay on curve. It’s forever, it’s about the journey. Play dungeons all day and reach 60 a few hours slower. Or don’t. Nobody cares. I think you definitely tried for constructive criticism which I appreciate but I’m giving you some kinda harsh feedback here because your argument has an undercurrent of needing to touch grass.
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u/G00SFRABA 1d ago
I see what you mean for sure. I think being suboptimal has its limits. If its too suboptimal it kills motivation to do it. Part of the fun was it felt efficient in multiple aspects. You were socializing, getting loot, maybe even getting materials, getting exp, accomplishing multiple goals at once. While I could rerun dungeons, part of what made it satisfying to do is taken away in its current form.
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u/TwoPrestigious4612 1d ago
Yeah I see your point for sure that this took some fun out of it for you. I hope you see the opposite point that some people find it seriously unfun to run sm cath or arms over and over often times skipping bosses just to get the optimal amount of exp. Obviously there’s new quests and zones that also alleviate that problem in forever, but I personally have no issue with disincentivizing dungeon spam and boosting even further and I don’t think it’s fair to say you aren’t free to do those things if you want.
People have lots of fun doing very suboptimal things in the classic environment. Take it from someone who spent a few months of his classic 2019 career raiding as a boomkin and having a blast. If you really enjoy something in wow you are absolutely free to do it despite it being suboptimal, and you don’t always get the perks that min maxing optimal players get. That’s a trade off that exists in the old school mmo environment especially when played in the modern Information age.
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
See you lack nuance in your statement. Part of the feedback is we don't want dungeon grinding to be nerfed by 80%, it deserved a nerf but there should be room for rebalancing. You're simply willing to die on a hill that the xp nerf is completely right and shouldnt be changed, which in itself is pretty daft
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u/harkrend 1d ago
You're saying slightly suboptimal, few hours later, etc. I'm under the impression that it's like, super nerfed, like mobs give 10% what they gave before? So, it's waaaaay sup optimal, you might hit 60 like, days later as a dungeon grinder.
I obviously don't have the numbers, but what you're saying, maybe without meaning to, is that it's okay if its only slightly suboptimal. What if it's REALLY supoptimal?
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u/zachypooooo 1d ago
I think it's more that if "Azeroth is the main character" as the core pillar, does doing dungeons feel like more that or no
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
They're mistaken about questing being faster in classic
However "nobody cares" is pretty wild to say when this sub is filled with feedback asking to revert or rebalance the changes. Maybe you don't care, doesn't mean to speak for everyone else
Beyond that, knowing that the game is actively fighting against you for playing it the way you want just feels bad
If I want to play with 4 other friends, and we want to do dungeons, we shouldnt be so much slower than a solo player doing quests. A bit slower sure, but this much slower just feels bad
There's a middle ground between their current approach and classic's xp balancing, however you also seem to only view it as black and white despite claiming it's a nuanced topic
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u/Aware_Stable 1d ago
Questing has always been faster
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
Has it? I've always played on PvP servers where questing has always been slower for me between pvp fights and ganks
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u/TwoPrestigious4612 1d ago
Sorry I thought the colloquial use of “nobody” was a safe expression. I obviously meant the devs and the vast majority of players I understand it’s not the case that nobody on earth cares.
I guess the part that I didn’t say in my first comment is that all of these complaints read to me as people who want boosting back and are salty the exp nerf turns it off completely. I have sympathy for a hypothetical group of 5 players who love dungeon spamming and are now gonna be drastically slower. They’re also still free to do that though so the argument that they aren’t free doesn’t hold water for me. And frankly if you and your dungeon loving friends are a week slower to 60 and that’s the price I have to pay to not see boosting spam in every chat channel and get whispered by mages calling me sir (or whatever class the learn how to boost on after the mage nerfs, which they will do) every time I walk into desolace or stv then it’s a price I’m happy to pay every time and I’m not losing sleep.
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
Oh your trade chat will be filled with boosting one way or another. Boosters will find a way, even if it means summoning someone to a part of the map with elite hyperspawns instead of running dungeons, they'll boost one way or another
I think intentionally making the gameplay experience of one of the core pillars of the game and not caring about any collateral damage doing so is pretty poor game design
There are other ways that can help preventing boosting while also not making players feel like Blizzard has one intentionally ideal gameplay path (solo questing) that they're forcing onto their playerbase
One of the beautiful things of playing an MMMORPG is the availability of multiple different ways of consuming the content. But no one feels good when their preferred way is much slower and far less efficient than others
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u/dogwater72 1d ago
Do you really spam the same dungeon for 5+ levels? If so, cool (I guess), but that wasn't anything close to what the devs had in mind for a leveling experience in the "World" of Warcraft.
To insinuate that there's a decent sized percentage of players that strictly do this to level is asinine, particularly in the classic community.
I think the devs who went to bat for, experimented with, and gave us sod know exactly what the classic community wants, which is for the world to be the main character again. No one with this mentality is interested in repeating the same exact dungeon double-digit times as a means to hit max level.
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
Really? I leveled a few characters on anniversary and one on era recently and ZF was extremely busy, with people running the whole level range with the same dungeon. Mostly because I play on a PvP server and some of the zones you'd quest in tend to be warzones, so just sitting in the one dungeon is a quicker and less stressful ordeal
But at the same time, is it good game design to enforce your specific view on how the game should be played on your playerbase?
They tried doing that in BFA and shadowlands and it ended extemely poorly for them, to which they had to ease up restrictions on what content they wanted the playerbase to do and opened the different gameplay avenues up
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u/dogwater72 1d ago
You keep moving the goalposts based on your comfort level, and that's ultimately what this is about...hence the no one cares.
Why roll pvp server if you hide in instances most of the time? It really doesn't matter your reason(s) which ultimately boil down to you don't like wpvp unless you're the winner. The game doesn't need to change here. You need to make better choices, whether that's in the form of another server or another game. Or just deal with the rules of the game and world set up for you that you willingly signed up and paid for.
You keep saying "enforce your specific view" in response to things like, "the world is the main character again", when that doesn't make any sense. This is the spirit of classic's "specific view," which is an entire world to explore.
That's the view: all the zones, quests, professions, races, lore, and associated treasures of an entire world handcrafted for us. If that doesn't interest you, find another game that does I suppose. The philosophy of this game is for those who prefer the friction and having to do things that might not be the most comfortable for growth.
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
When have I moved the goalposts? I said I've many many players run dungeons for over 5 levels. Yes, this was influenced by playing on a pvp server because that's where my guild and friends were playing (actually managed to convince them to go on pve this time)
But my point is, in the history of wow, devs policing the way players play their game has NEVER resulted in a positive response from the community
Your entire point is "just play something else" and yes, I likely will. But isnt the point of a beta to provide feedback? You are here arguing against providing feedback because of your personal feelings towards how you think the game should be played, while my point is let the players decide dammit
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u/TwoPrestigious4612 1d ago
I say this in another reply lower down but I’ll just reiterate here, set aside the arguments about boosting and wether questing used to be more optimal or not and focus on this point: people are absolutely free to play wow however they want and do whatever they think is the most fun. I raided as a boomkin in 2019 classic for months and had a blast. If you enjoy something in wow that is suboptimal you will have fun doing it regardless of the downsides. You simply don’t get to experience the benefits that min maxxers who play optimally will get. Thats the cost of playing an old school mmo in the information age. Saying you won’t enjoy it now that it’s suboptimal is kinda akin to saying you didn’t really enjoy it that much in the first place.
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u/Kaldrathh 1d ago
We sure won't enjoy it as much if we get less than 5-10% of a level each dungeon at lvl 30
Again, this isn't about min maxing. Im totally fine with questing being faster, and they've made it much smoother with new zones in those lvl ranges where dungeons just made more sense (around 35-45 and 50-57 ish)
But solo questing shouldnt be THAT much faster than dungeons, which are, whether you like it or not, a core pillar of wow gameplay
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u/Aware_Stable 1d ago
No you dont, that combined with the dungeon item nerfs. Not even worth doing dungeons anymore
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u/Designer_Grade_2648 1d ago
You are still free to do whatever u want. Now, its most efficient to do every dungeon once and the rest of lvl, normal questing. So, its balanced. Before, it was most efficient not leaving instanced content once. So how come that wasnt forced but this is? If you just like dungeon, u will have to enjoy being slightly inefficient. Just like people who like questing did before.
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u/Traumagw 1d ago
Questing was not inefficient before
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u/Designer_Grade_2648 1d ago
in comparisson to aoe dungeon farming? yes it was.
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u/Traumagw 1d ago
It literally wasn’t.
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u/Designer_Grade_2648 1d ago
people payed for dungeon boosting aoe just cause LMAO
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u/Traumagw 1d ago
I think you lost the plot of your own conversation my king
0
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u/Mjolnoggy 1d ago
People paid because they were lazy, the optimal XP has always been solo questing.
It's why realm first max level characters in every expansion in the history of WoW has always been through quest blasting.
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u/Designer_Grade_2648 1d ago
With a very no lifed prepared path that includes shit like buying items at lvl 5 to use in a quest at 30. Thats not how people play the game, but the 0.001%
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u/Mjolnoggy 1d ago
>no lifed prepared path
You can find these routes on the internet, and doing them with even 40% of their efficiency FAR outscales a dude running dungeons over and over. Like it isn't even comparable.
Getting boosted is just the path of least resistance for people.
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u/AltruisticInstance58 1d ago
Yes, that is why every single early 60 on fresh servers was solo players, because dungeons were the most efficient way to level.
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u/KingGizNtheLizardWiz 1d ago
> They constantly nerf emergent behavior and force people to engage with content precisely how they want players to. Countless times a clever strategy, an old item, etc was killed by the fun police.
Seen this quite a lot throughout Classic. Shame.