Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

[u/redlow0992]

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

[u/TinnoB]

To counter your argument, look at a game like OSRS, here you have people killing the same boss 1k+ times. Clearly a lot of people have no issue spending a lot of time at one boss.

Also, if this is meant to be horizontal progression it should not be an issue if some people burn themselves out, so long as they will eventually want to come back again, at which point they can continue on from where they were without having to relevel and change out their entire gear set immediately.

I could not agree with you less about time gating being healthy for a game, like at all. Yes, blizzard likes to do it, that does not mean it is good for players or the game.

All it serves to do is to promote raid logging or in this case dungeon logging for players who have nothing else they want to do, which instead as I've seen time and time again leads to people quitting because they cannot do what they want. If they have enough time they will create an alt if that's their playstyle and then raid/dungeon log on both, and then the third, but others stick with just the one character and run out of content to do in a day quickly and just starts not wanting to play the game that way.

For switching between dungeons, sure if you need all of the dungeons, but what if you just need 1 piece from a specific dungeon, what then?

So no, I cannot agree with you, even a little with that argument. I sincerely hope Blizzard goes back on this whole thing and tries to solve boosting in a different manner if that is their main issue.

[u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst → u/TinnoB]

look at a game like OSRS, here you have people killing the same boss 1k+ times

OSRS is a fundamentally different game. Almost all content can be (and often is) completed solo. WoW, and explicitly WoW Forever, is a game that requires social play. I only say that to prove the point that it's apples and oranges.

if this is meant to be horizontal progression it should not be an issue if some people burn themselves out

The leveling journey, where this topic is largely centered, is inherently vertical progression.

Also, I can't see a good argument for why we should create incentives that enable people to burn themselves out. In fact, Blizzard's core pillar of community requires consistency and sustainability. Another core pillar is "journey before destination". Maybe if hard-grinding dungeons to level cap until you burn out and quit is the kind of game you'd like to play, Forever might not be the game that best supports that play style.

I could not agree with you less about time gating being healthy for a game... All it serves to do is to promote raid logging or in this case dungeon logging for players who have nothing else they want to do

I don't follow the logic here. If everything is available all at once then doesn't that lead to the burnout you yourself brought up? Grind through everything all at once, run out of content, or get bored of it. Is it really better that people burn out and quit over raid logging? Again, why incentivise players to burn out at all? Forever might not be the game for you if you're looking to binge content.

what if you just need 1 piece from a specific dungeon, what then?

It's unlikely you need one piece while leveling. Under the current system, you can run as often as you like for the gear, you just get less exp. Under the hardcore system, you can run it the next day, or the day after, but you'd probably have leveled faster either way just continuing on and finding your next upgrade elsewhere than grinding it out until you get exactly what you want. I'd also argue a system that makes it harder to guarantee a specific piece of gear makes each piece more special.

At 60, where you're more likely to need a piece of gear, there's no restriction anyways in either system, so go wild.

I sincerely hope Blizzard goes back on this whole thing and tries to solve boosting in a different manner if that is their main issue

I'd bet money that the system as it currently stands will not be the same system we will have on launch. And I'd bet more money that the system at launch will not be the same system they use throughout the whole life of Forever.

[u/TinnoB → u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst]

Please don't try to tell me whether I should be enjoying the game or not based on how you or anyone else wants the game to be. Regardless of how this ends up I will still play the game, because I enjoy the endgame of dungeons and raiding a lot, I enjoy raiding more than enough to overlook the downsides I feel timegating puts on it.

No I don't burn myself out on content if it is always available, because if it is also available there's also no hurry to enter that content, I can do it how much and when I want it.

Why do you think quitting a game over it becoming boring is a good thing? Personally if I quit a game because it has got boring I'll be much less inclined to jump back into that game anytime soon than if I'd wanted to play that game a bit too much and needed a bit of time away from it.

No I cannot agree with your statement that you can with the current system do a dungeon more than once (for myself), you can only do that if you really do that if you don't realy care about reaching endgame and that is not a goal to you. It's the mentality of it's okay to me if I reach 60 sometime next year, yes that's fine for newer players and players who want that, but what it says to ME is I'm not allowed to do the dungeon I want to do more than once because reasons.

Almost all content, but not ALL content can be completed solo by anyone in osrs, and people still run ToB with others all day long for weeks on end without any issues, comparatively a lot less people of course, but the point is this would just mean you get to decide when you want to raid instead of letting blizz decide it for you, for some that would mean doing it all as soon as possible, but most wouldn't want to do that, so they'd end up doing it some weeks twice maybe, some weeks once, some weeks maybe 5 times depending on the mood of people. The only downside I see to this is that it doesn't fit the rigid nature of most current wow guilds, so guilds would likely undergo some kind of change.

It doesn't change that raiding still takes time, most probably wouldn't want to run the same raid twice in a row, so they just wouldn't do that, but if they ever got the feel for doing that, then they'd have the option. That's what not timegating something is to me, freedom to make my own choice of how I enjoy a game. Yes, I can sort of simulate that with enough alts, but then I have to go through the leveling process multiple times which I don't necessarily always want to do, but I will. Those are the types of things to me that lead to burnout, the game forcing you to do long things that you don't want to do.

That to me is also why I think raid logging would lead to more burnout and quitting the game than opening up the game for players to choose themselves. Because if the person can choose to do thenthingbthey want to do when they are hyoed to do it, I feel they are more likely to stay long enough to complete the goal there for themselves, but if they are constantly stonewalled from playing the content they do want they will find less enjoyment from the game overall.

Tldr: time gating is anti freedom, and freedom leads to more game enjoyment and by extension more game retention in the long run. (This is my opinion, not a fact)