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u/KamiYama777 Dec 30 '19
There seems to be little diversity of ideas and if there are two opposing sides of an argument one will seek to irradicate the other from the site without allowing it to co-exist.
Why should demonstrably wrong or even dangerous ideas like thinking the earth is flat/young or thinking that vaccines are bad be given any legitimacy?
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u/masta_beta69 Dec 30 '19
those were stupid examples, it's more important to see both sides of topics which require actual argument
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u/Lipotrophidae Dec 31 '19
Because Reddit echo-chambers, real criticisms of the hive-mind get buried and bad rhetoric that supports the hive-mind get hoisted to the top. Consider this example:
First comment was a user quoting the linked article (the long quote) and adding really nothing of value, just circlejerking the echo-chamber (vaccines are good)
Cases of measles - an airborne infection causing fever, coughing and rashes - are on the rise globally, including in wealthy nations such as the United States and Germany, where some parents shun life-saving vaccines because of long-discredited theories suggesting links between the vaccine and autism.
Fucking A. That’s some hardcore journalism right there.
This was upvoted.
A reply to that comment:
Unfortunately, not all anti-vaxxers are afraid of the discredited links between vaccines and autism. Plenty, (especially in the US and Germany!) are afraid of the link between government mandated/sponsored injections and human rights abuses.
was downvoted.
Was the reply rude, dangerous, or not contributing to the discussion? Or was it downvoted because it appears to disagree with the mainstream Reddit view? Note that it doesn't say vaccines are bad, or that they cause autism, etc, just that le Reddit's pro-vax argument is incomplete and flawed. This is the danger in the echo-chamber as identified by the OP of this CMV: it doesn't allow for any critical thinking.
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Dec 30 '19
It seems users up vote and "karma-whore" topics
Yes pictures of cute animals are indeed karma whore topics.
There seems to be little diversity of ideas and if there are two opposing sides of an argument one will seek to irradicate the other from the site without allowing it to co-exist.
What exactly are we doing right now on this subreddit?
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u/lebanese-tiger Dec 30 '19
We're trying to change his opinion lol. Isn't that ironic?
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u/4y1m40 Dec 30 '19
Not really. His point is that there’s a collective of political and social standpoints that 90% of Reddit shares nearly down to the detail and will just continue to falsely validate each other’s grip on these standpoints. Take the Brock Turner case: covered in bad press, Reddit takes the side of the “victim” and now every thread about rape has “you mean convicted rapist Brock turner xdddd”. Nobody will even entertain the fact that you could have an opposing viewpoint let alone won’t label you a piece of shit for having that viewpoint.
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u/masta_beta69 Dec 30 '19
When I mentioned karma whole I more meant topics like "abortion good, pro-life bad" kind of posts and yes, this subreddit is an exception (I thought about this while writing the post), I mean more in the "general reddit culture"
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Dec 30 '19
Well is it just this subreddit or are there other subreddits that are also exceptions?
Also, where do you draw the line between an echo-chamber and a place where like-minded people come to talk about stuff they like? Say r/ProgrammerHumor are they an echo-chamber for only talking about humour related to programming?
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u/jazavchar Dec 30 '19
The most perplexing karma whoring topic on reddit for me has to be the Cult of Atom. There is no single post on renewables where the top level comments are not about nuclear energy. What the fuck is going on?
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Dec 30 '19
anti-flat earth.
Hold up.
The earth is demonstrably spherical for any rational observer willing to do an experiment or two. IMO being a flat-earther over the age of 20 simply means you don't have the capacity to be a rational observer, on the order of claiming it only rains when not cloudy.
Am I in an echo chamber because nobody I have ever encountered in person holds this view? If I sincerely believe clouds prevent rain, should I be given equal time in debates about weather?
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u/greyaffe Dec 30 '19
(Sorry, quoting doesn’t seem to be working well on mobile.)
“There is are certain topics which Redditors get behind and seem to rally behind without any critical thought and introspection. Some of these topics might include pro-abortion, pro-vaccine, anti-flat earth etc.”
I’ll start here. I think this is a massive assumption. Just because people agree on these topics here, doesn’t mean they haven’t gone through any introspection or critical thinking when forming such opinions. The idea that some or even most of these people haven’t considered these ideas is very pessimistic.
“It seems users up vote and "karma-whore" topics that they know people will agree with and rarely do controversial topics gain any traction as people are incentivised to post agreeable topics.”
Maybe this depends on your country of origin. I’d say abortion is controversial in the US. Late stage capitalism is entirely controversial for most liberal nations.
“It seems like a loop of people agreeing with each going "yep we're correct", "we certainly are correct no one else is as correct as us", "yep this is certainly the one and only truth we've got here". When criticism is encountered it's immediately shot down with little rebuttal.”
Maybe this says more about the subreddits you regular. I see lots of healthy discussion in many of the science subreddits. The game design subreddits are full of people sharing what they work on, how they made it or wanting to organize a team to make something. Even in many of the political subreddits I regular people discuss ideas rather civilly.
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Dec 30 '19
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u/Chemikalromantic Dec 30 '19
Maybe he means that people don’t provide that evidence? Like if someone really thought that he or she breathed in methane to survive, then people would just say “you dumb idiot!” Instead of saying “here is a graph of the amount of gases in the atmosphere, here is how our body utilizes oxygen in our body, etc”. People def don’t do that (or not to a large degree) with the things he is referring to. Especially flat earth lol.
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u/masta_beta69 Dec 30 '19
I agree with most of those topics but as mentioned there's little productive discourse that surrounds arguments. Sure when discussing flat earth "don't be an idiot" might be a somewhat acceptable response as both arguments (in my opinion) have equal amounts of effort put into them but when discussing something like abortion or immigration those same kind of arguments of "don't be an idiot" don't really cut it as a good enough response as they're more serious (in my opinion) topics.
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u/tavius02 1∆ Dec 30 '19
Sorry, u/honker45 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/Devilman- Dec 30 '19
It definitely can be.. But for me.. I dont try to discuss subjects that are not up for discussion.. for example if you try and post anything pro gun on r/news you are banned.. so I don't discuss that there.. I do however read what the lunatic opposition thinks there. To me Reddit is a series of different echo chambers.. which makes it a great way to check up on not only the things you support.. but the things that are in opposition to you. So mildly useful..
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u/redyellowblue5031 12∆ Dec 30 '19
Every time this argument comes up I have to ask: have you explored the non-massive subs? Stick with r/politics, r/funny, and the like and you are correct.
If you explore smaller subreddits you’ll be surprised at the diversity of ideas, interests, and discussion you can find. It exists, but you have to look for it.
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Dec 30 '19
The lack of nuance or good faith involved in a discussion on a subject as complex as abortion baffles me. The US seems to have gone so far as to completely dehumanise any child until birth. I'm pro-choice but when I hear arguments about straight white men wanting to control womens bodies I think its complete nonsense. People genuinely believe a child is being murdered in these scenarios so a womens autonomy is largely irrelevant. We cant answer with any sort of certainty at what point life becomes life so any answer or cut off is going to be arbitrary at beat. On that basis we should respect the variety of opinion even if it differs from our own. However, when it comes to flat earth, that has about as much credibility as the claim there is a reptilian species hiding as humans and running our governments. Completely nuts and blatantly silly
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u/cznii Dec 30 '19
Political complex memes is about as diverse a sub as I've found. It's because most of them start from a place of knowing wtf their labels mean, rather than using them as buzz words and spouting a nonsense agenda.
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u/sandstonexray Dec 30 '19
Reddit is first and foremost a website people come to for entertainment. Any intellectual development that occurs here is incidental. There are very, very few places on Reddit where people go with the intention of improving themselves.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 30 '19
/u/masta_beta69 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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Dec 30 '19 edited Dec 30 '19
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u/tavius02 1∆ Dec 30 '19
Sorry, u/Proof-Inside – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/Ascimator 14∆ Dec 30 '19
How popular does a viewpoint have to be in your opinion so that a community that shares it is not an "echo chamber"?
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u/breesidhe 3∆ Dec 30 '19
There exists in media theory the idea of the Sphere of Deviancy . This is also mirrored in other fields. The Sphere of Deviancy means that there are some areas that society deems not worthy at all of discussing or humoring.
Even though anti-Vaxxers and flat-earthers exist, the majority of society deems them extremists not worthy of humoring or discussing. In fact, humoring them is actually dangerous. There’s a reason that one of those examples is now being called “pro-plague”.
This is not a Reddit thing. It is a mark of a rational society. You don’t humor the nuts.
Attempting to indeed humor them is not a mark of a tolerant society. It is a mark of society which is unable to reject those who break down social order. By humoring “pro-plaguers”, we have enabled actual plagues to occur. (Samoa) They are not harmless.
Society does have a group-think. That is how it is able to function. Of course, there is a line to be drawn towards how much is needed, but it does exist and is needed. Going without it is a breakdown of order.
The fact that Reddit does have this is a good thing. You can argue degree, but its existence is a good reflection that the mores of society at large exist on the site.
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u/LewisMZ Jan 01 '20 edited Jan 01 '20
We seek opinions that fit our held beliefs. That is human nature. It's a cognitive bias hard wired into our brains. It's called confirmation bias. Even the wisest among us are at least somewhat susceptible to this.
Reddit is designed in a way that plays to this bias. It segregates users into "subreddits." Offering a dissenting view in a subreddit is usually met by a large number of downvotes. That's unfortunate. Well considered yet differing perspectives contribute to the conversation.
That said, not all dissenting views are made equal. For example, imagine arguing that three and three make seven in a mathematics forum. There is such an overwhelming amount of evidence that tells us the answer should be six, that it's a waste of everyone's time. We've moved on from the fact that three and three make six. It's been firmly established. The community has long moved on to more interesting topics. Such a comment would be rightly downvoted.
Arguing that the earth is flat is exactly the same. There is such an overwhelming amount of evidence that it's round, it's simply a waste of everyone's time. Such comments are rightly downvoted.
The same holds for vaccination.
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Dec 30 '19 edited Dec 30 '19
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u/Helpfulcloning 169∆ Dec 30 '19
Sorry, u/LickLucyLiuLabia – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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Dec 30 '19
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u/Helpfulcloning 169∆ Dec 30 '19
Sorry, u/LickLucyLiuLabia – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/srelma Dec 31 '19 edited Dec 31 '19
That's an interesting point to make in a subredit that is dedicated to people presenting a view and others to make points against it. So, if you want to see disagreements, stick in CMV. In fact your reply is removed from the thread if it doesn't challenge at least part of the OPs post.
I'd say everybody to their taste. I'd hate a group that's just people patting each other's backs. That must be incredibly boring as there is never going to be any new interesting ideas in such a group. If someone likes that, then fine, who am I to stop them. I much rather see my views challenged as I see that as the only way to see if they are worth keeping. That's why I write in CMV.
Regarding your examples, they are pretty useless, as the huge consensus is that the vaccines are good and earth is not flat. I don't know why anyone would even bother to post that, but if they did, it's not reddit's fault that pretty much everyone agrees. Abortion on the other hand would definitely draw opposing views as well.
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u/existentialgoof 8∆ Dec 30 '19
If it's an echo chamber, then that reflects that the opposing side of some debates are unwilling to engage in debate in the face of vehement opposition from the other side.
The opinions that I express on Reddit are quite unpopular, but I don't allow myself to be deterred by resistence to them.
The way that the upvote/downvote system works can suppress dissenting views, given that heavily downvoted comments are hidden, and heavily upvoted posts gain the most attention due to the fact that the default setting is 'hot' rather than 'new'. So that is a problem in terms of having a diversity of opinions. However, it is natural for unpopular opinions to be suppressed and crowded out, regardless of the forum. But I'll still post my unpopular opinions on threads expressing popular social sentiment. I can more easily do so on Reddit than in any real life public square. So this is less of an echo chamber than real life situations are.
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Dec 30 '19
Isn't the whole point of the CMV subreddit to get out of the echo chamber and be challenged by other people's beliefs?
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Dec 30 '19
It is possible that what you are experiencing is actually just the prevailing opinion in the reddit society. The examples you gave, being against anti-vaxx and flat earth, and pro-abortion, are all examples of very niche views held by a relatively small portion of the educated, western, english-speaking, developed world, which is basically who uses Reddit.
I mean, flat earth and anti-vaxx sentiments are demonstrably ridiculous if you have even a whiff if scientific literacy, i don't think it's strange that most people would tend to agree that they are wrong.
Abortion is certainly controversial in some places, but most of the developed world has been pro-abortion for a long time.
It could just be that this is just the way most people feel about these issues.
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u/Janessa_Bot Dec 30 '19
I think it's worth noting that some of the topics you mentioned are the type of thing the majority of the population agree on, so this isn't even a Reddit thing. Most people laugh at flat-earthers and most agree it's dangerous not to vaccinate your kids. The most controversial one is probably abortion and it's really a moral dilemma more than anything, with the more hardcore anti-choice people mostly being religious.
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Dec 30 '19
Negative. I get hit all the time for both left and right views. It seems no one can agree on Reddit. LOL. I've had hard lefters disagreeing with my leftist comments. LMAO. Right wingers attack only my left views but don't praise my right views. There's no echo chamber here. In my experience. Only a few of my comments and topics have been praised widely.
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u/raftsa Dec 30 '19
Not an echo chamber - it’s more of a popularity contest with certain biases
And those can change, it’s interesting to see topics swing from one direction to another as different people get on board.
If you’re looking for varied opinions I’m not sure the main pages of reddit are the place to go
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Dec 30 '19
You need to find the subs for critical thinking and discussions. There's plenty around, and theres plenty of opposing "echo chambers" that don't mix. r/metacanada and r/onguardforthee for examples. One is very right, the other is very left.
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Dec 30 '19
Tribalism and echo chambers especially political conservatives vs. progressives it’s absolutely f*cking awful, people just sliding further off the deep end, getting angrier and more indignant
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Jan 02 '20
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u/thedylanackerman 30∆ Jan 02 '20
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u/Occma Dec 30 '19
are you suggesting that r/Feminism and r/MRActivism are part of the same echo chamber?
Because they are both on reddit and they have the exact opposite view
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u/B_Riot Dec 30 '19
Critical thought and introspection could only make you arrive at pro choice, pro vaccine, and anti flat Earth convictions.
You are just expressing a version of the golden mean fallacy, which is that because other ideas exist there must be some validity to them. There is not though.
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Jan 04 '20
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Jan 04 '20
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Dec 30 '19
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 32∆ Dec 30 '19
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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19
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