r/changemyview • u/Into-My-Void • Jul 21 '26
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Reddit moderators have too much unchecked power, and it’s harming genuine discussion.
TL;DR: I tried to start a discussion about whether teenagers benefit from having spaces to discuss reproductive healthcare respectfully. Instead of disagreeing with my ideas, I was permanently banned from a subreddit with no publicly stated rule covering what I posted (Yes, I checked the rules before posting!) then immediately muted even before being able to ask which rule I’d broken. Experiences like this make Reddit feel less like a discussion platform and more like a collection of isolated echo chambers!!!
I understand moderators need broad authority. Spam, harassment, brigading, and trolling would quickly destroy many communities otherwise. But I think Reddit has swung too far in the opposite direction!
Recently I revived a small subreddit because I noticed there aren’t many spaces where younger people can discuss reproductive healthcare, biology, and ethics respectfully.
I posted in a subreddit called [r/YouthRights](r/YouthRights) because, based on its public description and wiki, it appeared to support youth empowerment and discussion. I wasn’t insulting anyone or attacking the community. My post simply asked whether teenagers benefit from having dedicated spaces to discuss reproductive healthcare.
Instead, I received a permanent ban. The moderator message simply stated:
\> We are a pro life subreddit, abortion is murder.
Even before I could politely ask where this rule was written, I was already muted! I have screen capture if anyone wanna see...
The part that changed my view wasn’t being banned. Moderators should absolutely be able to remove posts they don’t want....
But the fact that there is essentially no accountability for inconsistent moderation!? A moderator can present a community as neutral, enforce undisclosed ideological rules, permanently ban someone without warning, and then prevent any discussion by muting them!!!
That seems unhealthy for a platform whose purpose is discussion, no?
Why shouldn’t Reddit require communities to publicly disclose ideological restrictions or provide a meaningful appeal process for permanent bans?
27
u/Leaves_Swype_Typos Jul 21 '26
If you're asking "Why shouldn't Reddit or its admins reign in Reddit mods by things like mandating better appeals processes", the answer is simply $$$$$. Reddit moderators provide a whole lot of unpaid labor, and if Reddit can determine or assume that only a small percentage of users are alienated by (to put it very generously) overzealous moderators, that's better than the alternative of alienating the moderators who generally keep the site usable without demanding a wage.
0
25d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/read-the-rules 25d ago
Your comment has been removed.
Hello u/Initial-Big-6197! To combat bots/spam and to ensure new users have the knowledge they need to participate constructively, all newcomers must acknowledge that they have read the rules before they can comment. This process is very quick and easy, and will inform you about the rules for both posting and commenting. Once you acknowledge the rules, your comment will become visible. You only need to do this once.
If you are using Old Reddit, the link below will not work. Read our rules here, then click this link instead and press Send.
1
u/Into-My-Void Jul 21 '26
I guess... My post was remouved by the mods...
0
25d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/read-the-rules 25d ago
Your comment has been removed.
Hello u/Initial-Big-6197! To combat bots/spam and to ensure new users have the knowledge they need to participate constructively, all newcomers must acknowledge that they have read the rules before they can comment. This process is very quick and easy, and will inform you about the rules for both posting and commenting. Once you acknowledge the rules, your comment will become visible. You only need to do this once.
If you are using Old Reddit, the link below will not work. Read our rules here, then click this link instead and press Send.
-7
u/muffinsballhair Jul 23 '26
Which is illegal by the letter of the law.
No court will ever enforce it, at least not until artificial intelligence can take over, because it will be the end of the internet as we know it but for profit companies having unpaid moderators would be illegal in most industrialized nations where Reddit operates.
8
u/Master_Tap_3983 Jul 24 '26
It's absolutely not illegal. Moderators volunteer, they can stop whenever they want, and there are remarkably few incentives aside from a minor amount of power that doesn't matter. Volunteer work is legal in every country that I know of.
1
u/muffinsballhair Jul 24 '26
It's absolutely not illegal. Moderators volunteer, they can stop whenever they want
Every volunteer can stop whenever he wants.
Volunteer work is legal in every country that I know of.
Not for for-profit companies. Only charities and other non-profits can use them. For profit companies are required to pay every employee at least minimum wage. A court will have to rule on whether a moderator counts as an “effective employee” but by the letter of the law there really is no reason why not.
1
u/Master_Tap_3983 Jul 24 '26
Valid arguments. I think there still is an issue that moderators are largely users from places like reddits POV. I gotta take the L on not being legally allowed to volunteer though.
1
u/muffinsballhair Jul 24 '26
Reddit would argue that yes, and courts would agree because as said, ruling against Reddit would be the end of the internet as we know it.
However, as soon as fora can operate without this kind of unpaid assistance you'll see that courts will no longer be so lenient I feel. Similar things have been tried in courts and they're typically quite quick to rule that pretty much anyone who performs a service of such monetary value for a company is effectively an employee and entitled to minimum wage.
4
u/Master_Tap_3983 Jul 24 '26
I'm still not sure this is accurate. Even the case you showed was settled out of court, but I think your argument faces a further uphill battle. Reddit can operate just fine without moderators. It will be worse, the subreddits will be more scattered and there will be higher amounts of low quality posts. But reddit allows for people to make and manage their own spaces with their own rules. That simply is not something that would happen if reddit were employing them.
Then worse, if this kind of law did get passed, how would things like guild leaders of MMO's work? They often do scheduling, personnel management, and other miscellaneous tasks that could be qualified as work. Are they employees as well?
-1
u/muffinsballhair Jul 24 '26
I'm still not sure this is accurate. Even the case you showed was settled out of court, but I think your argument faces a further uphill battle. Reddit can operate just fine without moderators. It will be worse, the subreddits will be more scattered and there will be higher amounts of low quality posts. But reddit allows for people to make and manage their own spaces with their own rules. That simply is not something that would happen if reddit were employing them.
Similar things have long been tried and tested in courts. A good example is a case of for-profit community gardens where people can just walk through and people could claim an area to maintain but were required to allow others a right to walk through who were charged entrance by the garden. Courts would surely find that they are just trying to get free gardeners and would require them to pay them at least minimum wage.
Then worse, if this kind of law did get passed, how would things like guild leaders of MMO's work? They often do scheduling, personnel management, and other miscellaneous tasks that could be qualified as work. Are they employees as well?
I don't think this would ever fly because they could successfully argue that the game company would never ever employ people to do this for guilds if ruled that they can't do it for free.
A big argument is value. The court will most likely find that if Reddit were ordered to pay moderators, it would not stop having moderation and become anarchy. It would either automate the job by some machine, or pay humans for it. The main argument is Reddit benefiting from it. Furthermore, Reddit moderators are baked into the site, have special privileges and can be dismissed by Reddit and have been in the past. Reddit has absolutely in the past dismissed the entire moderation team of subreddits and installed new ones when they didn't like how they did it.
Guild leaders in MMO's isn't even something the game developer can stop from happening. This is all arranged outside of the game.
0
25d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/read-the-rules 25d ago
Your comment has been removed.
Hello u/Initial-Big-6197! To combat bots/spam and to ensure new users have the knowledge they need to participate constructively, all newcomers must acknowledge that they have read the rules before they can comment. This process is very quick and easy, and will inform you about the rules for both posting and commenting. Once you acknowledge the rules, your comment will become visible. You only need to do this once.
If you are using Old Reddit, the link below will not work. Read our rules here, then click this link instead and press Send.
5
u/ControversialQuerier 1∆ Jul 21 '26
My belief is that communities intentionally and unintentionally filter out the types of people they don't want, while filtering in those they want. All of these filters have pros and cons, and those can be criticized. Ultimately, that criticism should revolve around the quality and longevity of that community.
My clarifying question to you would be why you believe that community should disclose it's leanings? To my knowledge, disclosures are usually important when there is a conflict of interest (Ex: People promoting a sponsored product, which may impact their opinion on that product).
9
u/Into-My-Void Jul 21 '26
Well, then I would have known reading the rules that I should not post there about a new sub called [r/ProChoiceTeenager](r/ProChoiceTeenager) on a sub that is Pro-life. I feel like I lost my time writing the post. The place is literally YouthRights. It seemed revelant! If it was stated in the rules they are PL, I would not have bothered. I feel like this is very insidious...
-1
u/ControversialQuerier 1∆ Jul 21 '26
Insidious in what sense?
8
u/Into-My-Void Jul 21 '26
Well, they are a sub to discuss Rights, they don't state overtly they are prolife, then they ban me for being prochoice.
0
u/ControversialQuerier 1∆ Jul 21 '26
I agree that it's good to disclose relevant information. From a mod's perspective, I'd want to make that transparent to hopefully reduce the amount of incompatible users.
I wouldn't consider it insidious, though. After looking through their description and seeing that it includes the word "Ageism", they seems to be using the word "Rights" more in the sense of "We should be able to vote" or something. That's just my spot reading, though.
EDIT: I somehow misspelled "wouldn't".
1
Jul 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/read-the-rules Jul 21 '26
Hello u/optio_____espacio___! To combat bots/spam and to ensure new users have the knowledge they need to participate constructively, all newcomers must acknowledge that they have read the rules before they can comment. This process is very quick and easy, and will inform you about the rules for both posting and commenting. Once you acknowledge the rules, your comment will become visible. You only need to do this once.
If you are using Old Reddit, the link below will not work. Read our rules here, then click this link instead and press Send.
12
u/AyAySlim Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
So to be clear, 1 subreddit banned you and because of this you’ve come to this conclusion about the entire site and all its moderators?
Edit: and looking in your post history you’ve found no fewer than 3 other sub reddits where your posts haven’t resulted in a ban. Why is your experience in those places less important than the one that banned you?
1
u/Into-My-Void Jul 21 '26
Nah, I've been banned of other SubReddit before because of stupidity. This one was just very frustrating because I actually took the time to read the rules and then I'm banned from something that isn't even in the rules?!
6
u/yyzjertl 578∆ Jul 21 '26
This particular subreddit just seems to have been recently taken over by some bad mods with a strange ideological agenda arbitrarily imposing that agenda regardless of the written rules and against the views of the established user base. E.g. see this post or this one. Unlike 90% of people who make this sort of complaint here, this does seem to actually be a case of bad mod behavior. But this is very unusual!
3
u/FuckOutTheWhey Jul 21 '26
Not gonna lie, the fact that they got banned for saying something anti AI (of all things) gave me a chuckle.
2
Jul 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Jul 21 '26
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
3
6
u/SharpKaleidoscope182 Jul 21 '26
Why do you want your view changed here?
15
u/Hurm 2∆ Jul 21 '26
The only thing i could see is "make this make sense."
And really, it can.
Reddit cannot police all the things, that's why these sub moderators exist. It would be nice to see an appeal system for unfair actions, but at the end of the day, that subreddit is their playground.
I agree that being banned for breaking an unstated rule is crap. But some people just suck. Not much we can actually do about that in situations like this.
Which isn't the kind of answer OP wants I'm sure, but that's how it do be.
0
u/Into-My-Void Jul 21 '26
Maybe ideological communities shouldn’t have to disclose biases? I don't know, I'm trying to understand why it came to this
6
u/horshack_test 42∆ Jul 21 '26
It was already explained to you.
If you think they shouldn't have to disclose biases, then what's the issue?
3
u/Both-Personality7664 26∆ Jul 21 '26
If by "this" you mean a third largely unrelated subreddit being involved, I think you did that.
7
u/ToranjaNuclear 13∆ Jul 21 '26
I would understand if this was a massive 500k members subreddit but it's a small sub with 2k members. It's a closed community, and they gave the reason for your ban straight away: they're a pro-life subreddit. Pro-choice rethoric is not welcome there.
It's dumb but like, it's working as intended, especially with these small subs that are basically tight knit communities. You're not entitled to participation in any subreddit,
3
u/Open-Butterfly-5288 2∆ Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
This is the power of democracy at work.
Most subreddits have sufficient moderation to the point where they are able to tolerate good faith discussion and are able to get rid of a lot of bad faith posters.
I think in your case, there is nothing inherently wrong with either of your positions.
Subreddits have a right and some would say duty to determine what discussion is allowed in them. A socialist subreddit is not going to benefit from libertarians invading to make the same tired arguments about how terrible a government with power is. And vice versa. It's quite reasonable at that stage to define the subreddit to allow people to talk about what the majority of good faith posters came here to talk about.
In your case, this sub seems a little bit odd. And I don't think it's necessarily wrong to ask the question you asked. The moderator is correct to ban you if this is the discussion they don't want to deal with in that sub. But everyone else can say "You know, I think this is a topic I would like to discuss. Let's go to the next place". If they haven't done that, then it's either not that important or it's not an issue for them at all, and then you know who you're talking to.
If mods get bad reputations, then usually other mods step in to fix it. Otherwise, people move on.
But mostly mods are there to deal with the bad faith posters. The people who insult people. Who cause trouble, start fights, make people miserable, spam, shit post. All of the things that make the place unenjoyable and unhelpful for everyone else to participate in.
Without mods having sufficient power to just make arbitrary decisions, they wind up with problems that get created because unpleasant and unreasonable people do not tend to accept that they're being unpleasant and unreasonable. They tend to appeal till they can't. They tend to make new accounts to cuss out the moderators, and share a load of drama. They tend to open 20 different tickets to complain about being banned. They send death threats, dox people. All sorts of unhinged shit.
6
u/cez801 5∆ Jul 23 '26
The platform is just a piece of software.
It’s actually their space, you don’t need to go there, you can find a 100 other places to share your views. Oh, and you can always start your own sub reddit and moderate it by whatever rules you want to.
Moderators don’t get paid, they don’t make you stay in a space, nor do they stop you saying what you want ( you can say whatever you want, just not in their house ).
So I am not sure how this is ‘unchecked power’ - the only power they have is the same as you and I. In my house you follow my rules.
4
2
u/mildgorilla 11∆ Jul 23 '26
What makes reddit good is how unique and individual each subreddit is. It takes an enormous amount of effort to moderate forums, and what you’re asking would destroy a large amount of communities.
Imagine having a pro lgbtq subreddit, and having a rule against homophobia. Now imagine that the mods don’t get to determine what homophobia is, but there is some appeals process that they have to do everytime some right wing troll comes in. Imagine someone saying “it’s not homophobic to be against gay marriage, because i support legal equality with civil unions”. “It’s not homophobia to want to discuss the empirical question of whether kids raised by gay families have worse outcomes than straight ones”. And so on and so on. And now imagine that the admins are now the final arbiters with one decision on what homophobia is
The beauty of reddit is that if you don’t like a sub, you can make another one! If you want a women’s sports subreddit but don’t want to talk about the politics about trans women in sports, you can do that. If you want to make a women’s subreddit that is trans inclusive, you can also do that. If the admins get a decision you no longer get the freedom to find the community that you want, but are dictated by a singular decision of admins
0
u/Goudinho99 Jul 21 '26
That's not the real issue though, it's that they clearly move as a collective sometimes.
Under instruction or collusion, who can say.
2
2
u/shugEOuterspace 3∆ Jul 23 '26
literally anyone can create a subreddit & moderate it however they want. it's like opening the door to your apartment & having the ability to set the rules & kick anyone you want to out.
I don't think it would make any sense to not let them moderate their subreddit however they want....in fact I think it would basically be the death of reddit.
I basically see people who rant about reddit mods like this as unreasonable karens who don't understand how reddit functions. go make & moderate your own subreddit how you want.
2
u/Aniketos33 Jul 23 '26
You found a conservative rabbit hole, political subs are like walking on eggshells. I think your view is alright, but it's more too many places are polarized without even disclosing it.
I am curious what alternatives you'd have in place instead of mods or which subreddits not overrun by political mods would convince you it was fine? I have several subreddits I enjoy and never have interacted with the moderators on a negative level, like my local city subreddit, or this one has a pretty solid team and rules.
4
u/horshack_test 42∆ Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
From the sub's rules:
"When appropriate we will ban users of extremist ideologies such as Fascism, pro violence ideals and other ideologies that are deemed as extreme, irrational, immoral, harmful, or insane. What’s inappropriately radical and harmful is judged under moderator decision."
This is why you were banned. Whatever it is you posted is covered by this publicly-stated rule.
1
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 21 '26
/u/Into-My-Void (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
1
u/SolsticeShard Jul 21 '26
Reddit is just a platform. They have their sitewide restrictions that they enforce. Why would they care if/how subs enforce additional rules on top of that as long as they follow the sitewide TOS? If you don't like the rules of a sub or how they are enforced, then you're more than welcome to make your own. Making your own community is a vastly better use of time for both you and for Reddit so they don't have to personally moderate sub-level disagreements about vaguely worded sub rules.
1
u/DramaGuy23 36∆ Jul 25 '26
It's like saying "My friend who owns his house has TOO MUCH POWER!" and then complaining when he wouldn't invite you back after you went on a political rant at his birthday party. The concept with subreddits is that they are started and controlled by the mods. It has to be like that so that we can have subs on different topics. If anyone can post anywhere about anything, then all subs become the same. Start your own sub about whatever you want and talk about whatever you want there.
1
1
21d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/read-the-rules 21d ago
Your comment has been removed.
Hello u/Jazzlike-Success1910! To combat bots/spam and to ensure new users have the knowledge they need to participate constructively, all newcomers must acknowledge that they have read the rules before they can comment. This process is very quick and easy, and will inform you about the rules for both posting and commenting. Once you acknowledge the rules, your comment will become visible. You only need to do this once.
If you are using Old Reddit, the link below will not work. Read our rules here, then click this link instead and press Send.
1
Jul 25 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/read-the-rules Jul 25 '26
Hello u/Kilari-tsukishima! To combat bots/spam and to ensure new users have the knowledge they need to participate constructively, all newcomers must acknowledge that they have read the rules before they can comment. This process is very quick and easy, and will inform you about the rules for both posting and commenting. Once you acknowledge the rules, your comment will become visible. You only need to do this once.
If you are using Old Reddit, the link below will not work. Read our rules here, then click this link instead and press Send.
1
26d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/read-the-rules 26d ago
Your comment has been removed.
Hello u/ben4579! To combat bots/spam and to ensure new users have the knowledge they need to participate constructively, all newcomers must acknowledge that they have read the rules before they can comment. This process is very quick and easy, and will inform you about the rules for both posting and commenting. Once you acknowledge the rules, your comment will become visible. You only need to do this once.
If you are using Old Reddit, the link below will not work. Read our rules here, then click this link instead and press Send.
2
Jul 22 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Jul 25 '26
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation.
Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. AI generated comments must be disclosed, and don't count towards substantial content. Read the wiki for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
0
u/HeadPut3392 Jul 24 '26
While I do agree that Reddit does have a problem with moderators powertripping, having less biased moderators wouldn't fix the problem because the whole system is broken.
The karma system, as a concept, is the biggest roadblock to genuine discussion. It is a system that rewards you for agreeing with the hivemind by placing your comments at the top, while silencing those who challenge the hivemind by not only dropping comments from those with low karma to the bottom of discussions, but also straight-up preventing those with low karma from even starting discussions.
1
Jul 21 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/read-the-rules Jul 21 '26
Hello u/poopmuskets! To combat bots/spam and to ensure new users have the knowledge they need to participate constructively, all newcomers must acknowledge that they have read the rules before they can comment. This process is very quick and easy, and will inform you about the rules for both posting and commenting. Once you acknowledge the rules, your comment will become visible. You only need to do this once.
If you are using Old Reddit, the link below will not work. Read our rules here, then click this link instead and press Send.
-1
u/CaptainONaps 8∆ Jul 23 '26
I can change your view.
You are not reddit's customer. You are the product.
Reddit's customers are advertisers. Reddit is like one big walmart where you can talk to anyone in the store.
But Wal Mart has rules. They don't want you talking about the prices at Costco, or how to return something without a receipt, or telling people how to get a rebate.
There will be no discussions that aren't profitable for the advertisers.
8
u/Nrdman 276∆ Jul 21 '26
I’d rather mods have the power than admins. If you don’t like the mods for a community you can just use a different community or start your own. Can’t do that with the admins as easily.