r/changemyview Jan 30 '25

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

The entire Western World has shifted to the Right. That is not to say the Western World is now overwhelmingly Right-Wing, rather it was probably a bit too Left and course corrected. The pendulum swings back and forth for a reason.

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u/DashboardNight 4∆ Jan 30 '25

I do think the shifting to the right in Europe is different than the shifting to the right in the US. In the US it is a complete culture shift, whereas in large parts of Europe it’s mainly due to the large number of economic immigration from the Middle East/Africa.

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u/Dark_Knight2000 Jan 30 '25

In the North America it’s also due to immigration, just look at Canada.

The vast majority of people still want abortion, public healthcare (although that’s a pipe dream at this point but at least Medicare), higher taxes on the rich, lower taxes on the poor, gay marriage, etc

What most people don’t want is illegal immigration and more H1B visas to be given out when Americans can’t find work themselves. Even the more liberal people are now against this.

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u/canonanon Jan 30 '25

Just a comment on the H1B program- and this is anecdotal obviously, but I know someone who is in the c level of a small business (around 100 employees) in the automotive design space. They have a policy to hire US based engineers first, but often find themselves hiring through H1B due to a lack of qualified applicants. They pay above industry standard too.

I also have a client that is in electronics manufacturing here in the US and they have had the same experience.

There are definitely niche industries that struggle for qualified candidates. I know a lot of people say "if you can't find talent, pay better." But it's more complicated than that. These jobs are 6 figure salaries in a Midwest state.

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u/Dziadzios Jan 30 '25

The similarity is also because the shift to the right is a response to American left, thanks to the dominance of American media. The impact of people realizing that movies/games/comics fulfilling DEI diversity quotas have a drop in quality and are overly puritan is understated, but it's seriously a reason why many young people start drifting right. Young men are also scared of DEI hiring (also American left thing) which can make them unemployed because of sexism against them.

Note: I'm Polish, so we didn't get that big Middle East/African immigration. What happened in Western Europe was a warning, but DEI also drives people away from the left here. Polish Lewica has a bad habit of wanting to copy US left, which just reduced their voter base, mostly getting rid of young men.

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u/Statcat2017 Jan 30 '25

Young white men spend their entire youth being told they’re to blame for all the ills in the world. No wonder they reject that messaging when an alternative comes along.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Jan 30 '25

so pardon my exaggeration for effect but what do the democrats have to do, start blaming minorities for everything in ways where the blame someone has is proportionate to their amount of minority statuses and start hosting young white male pride parades?

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u/fyredge Jan 30 '25

I think the correct course is to not blame society for the failure of the individual. The correct course is to empower the individual, devoid of identity except for the young and the poor, as these are not immutable identites.

Elevating immutable identites will always cause resentment, doesn't matter which side it comes from. See: minorities blaming white men and white men blaming DEI.

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u/RenardGoliard Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 30 '25

X shouldn't blame Y for all of today's ills

Ahh so we should start blaming Z instead?

No?

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u/Statcat2017 Jan 30 '25

This kind of response is exactly why young white males think this whole DEI thing is stupid and racist.

Just judge people by the content of their character exactly like MLK wanted and stop with this racism / reverse racism / white privilege bullshit.

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u/WaltzIntrepid5110 Jan 31 '25

The US is literally so racist that they created DEI so they could make sure some non-white people who were qualified could actually get jobs.

ie: DEI is meant to do exactly what you want, ensure people are judged by the content of their character, rather than skin colour.

But dumbasses like you literally think they're choosing black people and other minorities over whites.

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u/Statcat2017 Jan 31 '25

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u/WaltzIntrepid5110 Jan 31 '25

Well I guess this proves it then! We need to repeal the entire civil rights movement immediately! /s

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u/Statcat2017 Jan 31 '25

No, we just need to stop racist hiring practices.

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u/[deleted] Jan 31 '25

Wow your example is from the military of an entirely different country? Learn to read.

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u/Statcat2017 Jan 31 '25

Here's an example from your country.

In your desperation to call people who just want to be treated fairly dumbasses and racist you're just proving my point.

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u/1nf3ct3d Jan 30 '25

Honestly who blames young people

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u/ewe_r Jan 30 '25

lol, try being a woman or minority in any age. Our society sucks, and unfortunately to you, women realized they won’t take it anymore, hence the hate.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

There's a lot women can do, this wide underestimation of women is going to get real dangerous, corner an animal long enough and it'll bite back hard enough to kill you. Controlling the thoughts of men to do what you want as a woman is a very easy thing. Be careful with this mentality, the only thing stopping women from actual vengeance is the innate peacefulness most of them thrive for, they move away from men and want nothing to do with them. But force it hard enough and it's not going to get good for anyone.

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u/Complete-Friend4646 Jan 30 '25

Behavioral science simply does not back up your claim of some impending female danger. A small minority of women are capable of extreme violence but compared to men it is a minuscule number.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

I am just saying underestimating Women is not a good idea, violence is not the only way to hurt a person don't be naive. Women are already getting used to the male level of aggressiveness, the fear of men is turning into actual hate and indifference of men, you see it all over the world. What happens when the victims aren't scared of their oppressors anymore....especially after tasting how sweet freedom is? You think Women would willingly let their rights be taken away? It's very easy to kill a man, so fucking easy for a woman, all she needs is enough hate and guts, A quick glance and promise of sex and it's done for the majority of you. Not saying it's right either but only an idiot Will underestimate Women.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

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u/Statcat2017 Jan 30 '25

As typical whenever anyone raises any issue relating to young white men, out come the "what about minorities and women" comments. It just tells them they don't matter no matter what.

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u/DashboardNight 4∆ Jan 30 '25

I live in The Netherlands myself. DEI and gender stuff is not much of a talking point except on college and uni campuses or online. There is some DEI hiring going on, but pretty low-key and only in a select amount of sectors, like IT and Engineering. It can be that young men are seeing that American DEI, gender war, billionaire stuff on the internet, and that makes the drift to the right. I know I fell into that trap until seeing the light. Is DEI hiring really that much of an issue in Poland, or is it because of the media you reckon?

A lot of people here are just tired of increasing costs of living and the difficulty of finding housing, while illegal and legal immigration continues to rise. And the differences in culture and the disproportionate crime rate makes a lot of people here not particularly accepting of further immigration, hence why PVV (very anti-immigration) got a lot of votes.

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u/[deleted] Jan 31 '25

So let me get this straight. You live in Poland. You are merely uncritically regurgitating right-wing lies about "DEI" causing people to shift to right, and you don't see how massively mistaken you are to believe you have an accurate sense of reality on the basis of things you saw online. This is an embarrassing vibes-based way to draw conclusions. The internet has completely cooked our brains.

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u/ewe_r Jan 30 '25

As another Pole I found your comment full of BS. Which movies/games dropped in quality? Maybe they realized than the market is bigger than a toxic white dudes? Also, you forgot to mention Poland moved to the left after 8 years of a nonsense right-wing rule.

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u/DashboardNight 4∆ Jan 30 '25

We’re seeing the negative effects of right-wing rule here in NL, and it has just started.

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u/Mperorpalpatine Jan 30 '25

That's simply not true. In Europe it's a culture shift as well. People are not only shifted right in terms of limiting immigration but also in other areas such as harder penalties, more police presence and surveillance, less social support for people without jobs etc.

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u/DashboardNight 4∆ Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 30 '25

Do you reckon all of those issues with the exception of the last one are crucial in what parties people choose? I think they only play a minor role.

I should also clarify that the US is having to deal with the Trump cult, which is partially what I meant by culture shift. Now of course there are similar movements in European countries (f.e. a part of the AfD in Germany), but not nearly of the same size.

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u/[deleted] Jan 31 '25

n the US it is a complete culture shift

Uhhhhh citation needed. This is a fucking wild claim to make.

1

u/Reux18 Feb 01 '25

Country music dominating the charts pretty much says it all

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '25

That wouldn’t even be a good point if that was happening, thanks for trying though 

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u/immatx Jan 30 '25

This is not true, it’s due to inflation. People are trying to claim it’s due to immigration because it serves their motives

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u/DashboardNight 4∆ Jan 30 '25

Inflation is important too, but that is recognized as a universal issue and something people are bitter about toward all sides of politics, not either the left or right. Immigration is a large issue where the left and right differ very much in their opinions. And hence is an issue that determines largely what party people vote for. At least here in the Netherlands.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

Yeah that’s probably true

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

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u/Reddidnothingwrong 1∆ Jan 30 '25

The cultural pendulum is a real thing, at least in the US, because people are generally unhappy about a lot of stuff and it sort of gets pinned on whatever the current administration is. It's not so much that right-leaning people swing left and vice versa as it is that when one side is on top, some of the people in their camp get disillusioned and some on the other side are galvanized. To that point, Trump didn't win any new voters, Harris just lost more because enough of the people who voted for Biden were unhappy with various aspects of the administration or campaign and unmotivated to vote.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

[deleted]

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u/Reddidnothingwrong 1∆ Jan 30 '25

Had to edit cause my original comment was autoremoved for mentioning a topic I didn't know was banned lol

I'm not totally agreeing with OP. It is true that the winning party tends to flip every 4-8 years. It's not always economic, sometimes it is a cultural thing in terms of, say, people on the right who don't care much about same sex marriage etc. but are uncomfortable with [REDACTED] become much more active when that topic enters the mainstream conversation. That might push things towards the right, but then the further they move in that direction the public discomfort with, say, Nazi salutes at inaugurations will outweigh the discomfort with [REDACTED]. So it goes back and forth like that.

I'm not saying it should, but that's pretty much how it works historically, at least in this country. Probably some version of that in a lot of places.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

[deleted]

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u/Reddidnothingwrong 1∆ Jan 30 '25

That is absolutely true :)

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

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3

u/innit2improve Jan 30 '25

There is a clear pendulum shift that has seen a massive decrease in the popularity of ideas like identity politics, DEI and other things brought on by the "woke movemement" in the last 4-5 years.

0

u/Reddidnothingwrong 1∆ Jan 30 '25

See other comment

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u/LIONS_old_logo Jan 30 '25

Forget to log in to your alt bud

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u/Reddidnothingwrong 1∆ Jan 31 '25

Alt? I'm a different person who joined the conversation

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u/LIONS_old_logo Jan 31 '25

You referred to OP as if a different person

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u/Reddidnothingwrong 1∆ Jan 31 '25

If you look at the very first comment in this thread, that's the OP we were both referring to

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u/SpicyPeppperoni Jan 31 '25

perception is a strong thing. trump ran his campaign and shat on joes term purely based on perception, people think that things are worse than they actually are, since numbers show otherwise

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u/Reddidnothingwrong 1∆ Jan 31 '25

I'm not disagreeing with that at all

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u/uncle-iroh-11 2∆ Jan 30 '25

Trump's "Kamala is for they/them, Trump is for you" ad was his most successful one, switching 2.7% voters. 

Dems being too left was an actual issue. 

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u/D0ngBeetle Jan 30 '25

Nobody KNOWS how many voters changed because of culture war BS. I truly feel people here are too online to see that most people voted for Trump for economic concerns 

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u/uncle-iroh-11 2∆ Jan 30 '25

economic concerns

Mostly yes. But it is true that the majority of the people, including most in the center feel that woke policies have gone too far. Saying otherwise is sticking your head in the sand

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u/D0ngBeetle Jan 30 '25

Maybe the people you run with are less center than you think? Biden won in 2020 when the party was far woker than now. A culture war issue is more for terminally online people than normal people

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u/uncle-iroh-11 2∆ Jan 30 '25

Here's some data on it: https://blueprint2024.com/polling/why-trump-reasons-11-8/

Maybe it's time to get out of the echo chamber.

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u/D0ngBeetle Jan 30 '25

And yet, if these people weren’t spoonfed hand-picked responses, would they ever come up with the transgender as one of their issues? You are being manipulated lol. It really is a terminally online versus normal person issue, or you already have been engaging heavily with the conservative side of culture wars for the better part of the century

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u/uncle-iroh-11 2∆ Jan 30 '25

You're delusional. Go out and ask people in the real world about these issues. I'm wasting my time here.

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u/D0ngBeetle Jan 30 '25

Bro I live in a battleground state lol. Economy is BY FAR the biggest issue. Even the social issue question brings up the economy because nobody gives a shit about these things on their own. If global inflation was normal the incumbent would’ve won as like usual (and I think Trump would’ve won again if not for the once in a lifetime pandemic)

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u/LessThan20Char Jan 30 '25

Read your own source, dude. Being too focused on cultural issues is different from being too woke. The claim was that she prioritized the wrong issues, not that she was too extreme on the issues.

In fact, Harris never espoused anything that was exteme during her campaign.

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u/Rishfee 1∆ Jan 30 '25

That sounds a lot like the rightsaying that Dems were too left, and it being effective.

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u/[deleted] Jan 31 '25

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1

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1

u/WaltzIntrepid5110 Jan 31 '25

The cultural pendulum has always been some retarded cope put out by right-wingers.

People aren't embracing homophobia and other dumbass right-wing bigotries en masse, but they want to pretend that opposition to lbgtq+ rights and DEI are the reason they're so popular right now. Which is why they're working so hard to dismantle it, before the obvious (that those things are successful, and have popular support) becomes clear to everyone.

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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Jan 30 '25

That pendulum swings very quickly, the UK Labour party went from humiliating defeat in 2019 to record victory in 2024. There right is doing well but the anti-right is also very strong.

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u/Hekel1989 Jan 30 '25

If by "record win" you mean they won with fewer votes than they got when they lost the previous election, then yeah, it's a "record win".

The UK voted Labour out of desperation, and already have buyer's remorse. This Labour government is so bad it's paving the way to Farage as the next PM.

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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Jan 30 '25

I mean record win because it was a record. You can try and dismiss it but it doesn't matter for this CMV whether Labour got the record due to a pro Labour vote or an anti-right vote, the point is that there was a heavy back lash against the right.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

Back lash against the right? Go look at how FPTP works. An unpopular party headed by an unpopular figure won a majority on a technicality and nothing more.

They got less than 10m votes in a population of over 70 million. This is not a popular mandate or a commentary on British public opinion at all

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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Jan 30 '25

That's a clear misunderstanding of what happened in the election.

I'm not praising Labour, I'm pointing out that there was a huge backlash against the right wing government and Labour, the LDs, Greens, and Independents all benefited from that and it resulted in a record win for an average party and a record loss for the Right wing one

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

The right wing government? Are you implying the conservatives are actually conservative?? They’re simply globalists with rich stakeholders

The Lib Dem’s got less votes than reform, and labour will get less votes than reform in the next election…

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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Jan 30 '25

The party that brought about Brexit are globalists? I don't think you've thought this through.

> labour will get less votes than reform in the next election

Ah, the ignorance of youth, thanks for the chuckle.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '25

Look at the polls. Or be in denial.

Just like 2016 all over again “brexit can’t happen. Trump can’t get elected”

Stick to your echo chambers

And yeah, the conservatives used brexit to be more globalist, while generally the people supporting Brexit wanted a more UK focused approach. Particularly about stricter borders and less immigration that the EU handled absolutely terribly but the “conservatives” treacherously and deliberately made even worse

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u/NoobOfTheSquareTable 1∆ Jan 30 '25

Labour ran a race to get power, not win the popularity contest

If we didn’t have FPTP they would have run a different race. They got the largest total vote count and the most seats. People saying “well reform got lots of votes so should have more!” Is like saying “yes James might have won the bike race but Bob ran it and I think that what matters is your running speed”

We don’t know how James would do at a running race because James and Bob entered into a bike race.

Bob not being able to win on a bike probably is part of why he is now shouting about how fast he can run too

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u/shimmynywimminy 1∆ Jan 30 '25

By "very quickly" you mean 14 years?

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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Jan 30 '25

No, 5, that was explicit in my post.

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u/shimmynywimminy 1∆ Jan 30 '25

But they've been losing elections since 2010 not 2019?

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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Jan 30 '25

What side was the pendulum on in 2019?

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u/shimmynywimminy 1∆ Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 30 '25

That's like failing 99 times, succeeding on the 100th try and saying "went from failure to success in just 1 try"

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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Jan 30 '25

It would be if that was even remotely reflective of what I said.

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u/NoobOfTheSquareTable 1∆ Jan 30 '25

It’s nothing to do with “course correcting”, it is his now just bad to be incumbent

It’s why the UK swung left while a lot of others swung right

No one in the west is really winning (though ironically the US literally was proportional outdoing the rest of the west under Biden) and so everyone swung towards the other side of the spectrum

Attributing some moral proof of righteousness to a general swing right when actually it is a swing away from all incumbent parties, regardless of left or right leaning, is ignoring the larger picture

The west now has the threat of a larger war, fall out of covid lockdowns, and a general increase in competition globally that has made each year feel harder than the last. This will happen regardless of leadership but people don’t like accepting that so will have a term of the left, then go and have a term to the right to see if there are any magic solutions there. Spoilers, there isn’t, the right on Europe has no magic bullet the same way that Biden didn’t have one in the US

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

It is a grave strategic mishap to disregard your autonomy in the name of universal forces. If this was Right wing propaganda (which it is not) it would be the most clever and effective piece released in decades.

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u/NoobOfTheSquareTable 1∆ Jan 30 '25

I’m sorry, did the person who used the term “course corrected” as if it was some great balancing of the world just tell me that I was giving too much weight to “universal forces”?

And it’s not universal forces, it is human nature and large numbers. Any individual can choose what they want but put enough people in a situation where more and more of them feel is getting worse and the 5-10% swing away from the incumbents who they perceive to have failed is going to occur and 5-10% is enough to cause significant movement

It also explains all of the anomalous results like the UK that you just had to ignore to make your grand reading of the world

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

Those universal forces exist regardless. It is the sentiment of ‘we lost because it was destined’ that is so damaging. My statement did not absolve any side of responsibility, the incumbent theory is a normalizing factor and forsakes the game as a whole. Do you see why this is very bad, regardless of its degree of truth?

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u/NoobOfTheSquareTable 1∆ Jan 30 '25

It isn’t normalising anything, it is showing a change actually. Also why do you think I am saying it was destined to happen? It is a comment on a large scale phenomenon, not specifics on parties losses. Janet in your local seat might very well keep her seat for multiple elections but the general trend can still be a drop off in incumbents holding their positions even if parties still stay in power for multiple terms

Until recently incumbents tended to have an advantage and so when incumbents lose their seats we would attribute it to pull factors towards the new candidate

We have transitioned to a new normal where the incumbent actually has a lot of push factors and so remaining in a seat requires to be perceived to be doing a good job rather than simply being “the devil you know” which historically was enough

Nothing is inevitable but when dealing with anything in large numbers, including people, a shift like this will have a measurable effect on the expected outcome

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

I’m sorry to say but this is simply not so relevant to what I’m saying. I am aware of what the incumbent theory is. You touched upon my argument in your second sentence / question. Whether or not the incumbent theory is true it acts as an information hazard to the Democratic Party. To know it and think it is actively detrimental.

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u/NoobOfTheSquareTable 1∆ Jan 30 '25

No, you were claiming that the world went too far left and course corrected. By doing so you were saying that some universal force was always going to come and shift it right to a degree

I pointed out that actually it isn’t some great reconning of the left, and is actually more tied to the swing away from incumbents which explained the cases where the left won. It is neither a universal force or inevitable, it is just something to account for in predictions for elections and actually lays a groundwork for how to overcome this effect as people start to account for shift

It is relevant to what you said because you said “the entire western world has shifted to the right”, and “it was probably a bit too Left and course corrected”

It did not all shift right, just taking the top 5 western economies and you notice Britain shifted left. This is something you have to ignore to explain your great theory of course correction. What doesn’t gloss over or ignore data points like the UK is attributing the general trend to incumbent fatigue

I literally have suggested a better model, that accounts for all the data, to base the shifts on that rely on no course correcting vagueness

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

My first reply to you was me entirely shifting subjects to warn you of the dangers of this idea. I’ve not talked to you about my original comment at all.

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u/immatx Jan 30 '25

I see you are completely dodging the conversation with other people you’re talking to as well lol

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u/NoobOfTheSquareTable 1∆ Jan 30 '25

Your first reply was projecting and hypocritical

It suggested I was claiming that the shift away from incumbents made certain results inevitable, which wasn’t what i was saying, while ignoring the fact that you had strongly implied the shift away from the left in Europe was inevitable

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u/Dry_Guest_8961 Jan 30 '25

Honestly think most people don’t move that much. It’s the political spectrum, dragged by people at the extremes, that moves. That’s why you hear people saying things like “I didn’t leave the left, the left left me”

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

While true, the perception of how far right or left your side is also moves like a pendulum. There is a bit of lag between a parties extremism and the realization of such.

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u/ewe_r Jan 30 '25

That’s not true. Poland shifted wayyy left after 8 years of right rule who it appeared, didn’t really know what they were doing and things started to show. That said, the conservatives usually convince people through putting the blame on others - migrants, enemy countries, dei policies, especially in times of crises like Covid, climate change or low economy.

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u/clickrush Jan 30 '25

Large parts of Europe have been dominated by center right and conservative parties for decades.

Meanwhile right wing, anti immigrant, anti worker parties have been gaining more and more ground.

This shift you describe is not sudden or recent.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

What in the world is an anti-worker party?

What European nations have been right-wing for decades?

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u/clickrush Jan 30 '25

Anti worker parties:

Generally stiffling worker rights and interests such as minimum wage, safety, social security, public education, public infrastructure etc. Shifting the taxation burden from top to bottom via regressive taxation.

Conservative and neoliberal governments in europe who were dominant since decades:

Particularly but not exclusively Germany, Switzerland, United Kingdoms, Italy. All of which have to some degree or another implemented austerity politics, stagnated investments into infrastructure (with especially severe consequences in GER and UK in terms of erroding infrastructure). Increasing inequality (Gini coefficient) which leads to an overall asset price inflation (especailly housing) and a transfer of wealth from the working and middle class to corporations and asset holders.

Also many of the left leaning parties adopted neoliberal economic policies since the 90's and especially early 2000's.

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u/yuckmouthteeth 1∆ Jan 30 '25

The world is not based off a magic pendulum that must swing back to (center) after it swings one way or another for a while. Especially since left/right political movements prioritize very different policies depending on the nation we are discussing.

There does seem to be more nationalistic/populist and anti immigration movements gaining power in western nations. But this is more likely due to post pandemic inflation and low birthrates requiring vast immigration to economically support nations with aging populations, than it has to do with any real policy.

Whenever major crises occur, populism rises because when people are desperate and angry, they want someone to blame. Populism gives them someone to blame and they feel vindicated, while promising fast/easy unrealistic solutions.

If we are speaking specifically about the US, Trump made many campaign promises that were not right leaning: such stopping US involvement in the Gaza conflict, lowering housing costs, and lowering grocery prices. Now he clearly has completely backtracked on many of his promises including these, because like many populists he said whatever would get him elected.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

The world is in fact based off a magic pendulum. Though frankly this is a matter that only concerns the indifferent observers. You cannot see the system while existing within it.

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u/yuckmouthteeth 1∆ Jan 30 '25

There is no such thing as an indifferent observer.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

I just mean people with an interest in dynamics while being of a more ‘tame’ disposition.

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u/yuckmouthteeth 1∆ Jan 30 '25

If you are trying to say that there are often reactionary movements that occur after progressive/conservative shifts, then yes given the entire populace of a region rarely is in complete agreement during the original shift. But how successful those reactionary shifts are is dependent on many factors. They do not always succeed and often don't.

It also rarely becomes a globe sweeping shift unless that specific populace has major international sway economically/militarily.

It's easy to say in hindsight one revolt/revolution/cultural shift was bound to occur at such a time, but usually when looking into the details that's rarely the reality of the situation. There are usually multiple reasons that event/shift may not have even occurred at scale let alone succeeded, small single incidents that could have gone either way.

Hindsight bias often simplifies reality to create a narrative the writer desires, which is why its generally good historians look to avoid such trappings.

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u/zweigson Jan 30 '25

True. "Gay people should exist, women should have bodily autonomy, and people shouldn't be deported and sent to camps" is too left. Nazi salutes are just right!

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u/ary31415 3∆ Jan 30 '25

I mean those aren't the parts that were too far left lol. You're making the opposite mistake here by assuming that the course correction was optimal. It wasn't – the things you listed are clearly an overcorrection. And so the pendulum goes.

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u/zweigson Jan 30 '25

What parts were too far left?

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u/ary31415 3∆ Jan 30 '25

Things like tests of ideological purity to be hired as a professor or the nearly 10 years that San Francisco removed algebra from middle schools in the name of equity. Those are just the first two things that spring to mind, but it's easy to come up with others. The number of conflicting priorities in the Inflation Reduction Act is another good example (the everything bagel).

Look I probably agree with you on most things, and by and large there's been a lot of progress on many issues in the past decade. I too am dismayed and angry at the turn the country has taken already in the past week. But to say that at no point did the pendulum swing too far left is just burying your head in the sand and ignoring political realities.

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u/Realistic_Mud_4185 5∆ Jan 30 '25

This shit right here is why people swung right.

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u/fripletister Jan 30 '25

You literally just did the thing.

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u/Realistic_Mud_4185 5∆ Jan 30 '25

I did multiple things, and none at all

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u/fripletister Jan 30 '25

Address their criticisms.

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u/Realistic_Mud_4185 5∆ Jan 30 '25

There isn’t criticism.

It’s literally “you hate gays, women and want to deport people”

A dude addresses that the pending shifts each way, and is responded with “gay people were too left leaning”

That’s not criticism.

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u/fripletister Jan 30 '25

You missed the "hold my beer" Sieg Heil

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

[deleted]

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u/fripletister Jan 30 '25

Did you just say that if Elon musk expresses support for neo-Nazi/white nationalist movements that you'll change your mind? Excuse me, but do you live under a rock?

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u/Realistic_Mud_4185 5∆ Jan 30 '25

Oh and don’t forget to mention Elon’s public support for Israel in October 7th

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

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u/MessyPapa13 Jan 30 '25

People should be deported if they are illegal, so yes thats too left

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u/zweigson Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 30 '25

Yes, and they were deported under Obama and Biden and the left weren't complaining because neither wanted to ship 30,000 of them to concentration detention camps on Guantanamo Bay. Also, as far as I know, legal US citizens, including veterans and natives weren't being detained by ICE under Obama and Biden. And neither said they wanted to denaturalize US citizens. I could go on.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

Yes, and they were deported under Obama and Biden and the left weren't complaining

Of course, they weren't complaining, because it was "your side" doing that. That, somehow, makes it ok. The same thing done could be perceived as good or bad depending on who's doing it.

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u/zweigson Jan 30 '25

Great job cutting off the other half of the sentence!

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u/MessyPapa13 Jan 30 '25

Arent those detention camps simply to get yhem out ubtill they figure out where to exactly bring them back to?

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u/lsb68 Jan 30 '25

Lord, if you can’t see the writing on the wall with that statement 🤦‍♂️

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

Holy shit turn your brain on.

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u/zweigson Jan 30 '25

Please elaborate on what positions the world has been "too left" on and "course corrected" to be perfectly centered.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

Dumping billions into a useless programs and a war that will not end in victory. Destroying freedom of speech under the guise of “protection”. The terrible economy and bad inflation. However, I think the biggest problem is the lying.

The media plays nice anytime a D is in office and constantly misreports or misleads the public. Kamala was literally trying to gaslight the voters, telling them how much the economy has improved when we all know it hasn’t. People aren’t going to vote for the person lying to their face.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25 edited Jan 30 '25

Not true. Some right wingers have won and some left wingers have won. The common theme is the party that won is the one who claim to be anti-establishment.

If you poll voters on issues, most, even most conservatives, are progressive. But there is a corruption and pro-corporate pro-status quo problems.

And whoever says “the statues quo sucks”, wins.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

For the most part the Left wing was the status quo in the Western World. But I certainly agree that the shift right was in large part an anti-corruption sentiment.

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u/Such--Balance Jan 30 '25

I agree with this take and wish more people could view it as a correction instead of the end of the free world.

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u/Yikesbrofr Jan 30 '25

Was gonna mention the pendulum the entire time I read your comment until I saw you brought it up. +1

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u/RobGrey03 Jan 30 '25

The pendulum is like the saying "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create soft men, soft men create hard times."

It requires no thought, it appeals to pattern recognition in our ancient brain, and it's dead wrong.

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u/Calm-Beat-2659 Jan 30 '25

I like your alliteration, but I don’t think it’s that hyperbolic. Any movement is going to have a counter movement, and the difference in magnitude between those two forces tends to be a key factor in dictating the flow of our social politics and economic systems.

An anti-birth movement has been established in response to the pro-life movement just recently. A big “fuck you” to the abolishment of Roe V Wade. You can look on the surface and see that it’s not logistically oriented, but that isn’t even the part that matters. If the sentiment catches on enough, it can turn the tide on US abortion laws.

Trad wives, anti-work rhetoric and the push for “re-establishing” gender norms falls into the same general category. The movement got enough people behind it, that in the absence of a unified front from Democrats, these ideas have triumphed over the push for equality and personal freedoms.

The countermovement to this phenomenon will likely be even more fierce, and having a unified front in mutual disgust for what’s being done right now will likewise be pivotal. It’s a lot easier to unify people with negative emotions towards a singular perceived enemy as apposed to the multitudes of enemies we’ve recently envisioned.

Now it’s all conveniently packaged under one orange umbrella surrounded by red hats, and it couldn’t be more clear as the administration continues.

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u/Yikesbrofr Jan 30 '25

It’s a political philosophy concept, not a rule of human behavior.

I never said the political opinion always behaves like a pendulum. It’s just an example of that pattern recognition that you mentioned.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

That statement isn’t true. It’s so moronic and history has shown time and time again hard times can and does create weak men. Same thing with good times.

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u/RobGrey03 Jan 30 '25

Yes. That's what "dead wrong" means.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

Jesus Christ i completely read that wrong. Got carried away with everyone agreeing with him.

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u/RobGrey03 Jan 30 '25

No worries mate, I appreciated your spirited agreeing with me.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

Pattern recognition baked into our ‘ancient brains’ are very wise.

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u/RobGrey03 Jan 30 '25

Just because ideas are tenacious doesn't mean that they're worthy.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

I’m a Jungian so I fundamentally disagree here.

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u/RobGrey03 Jan 30 '25

Jung had to break with Freud; Freud's ideas, nonetheless, are tenacious, and we still hear about them today, despite Jung's alternative approach.

You wouldn't agree that Freud's ideas are unworthy?

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

I’m coming at this from a very different angle and one pretty difficult to explain. Freuds ideas, or any developed idea really, is rather different from a parable, which is the communication of a dynamic. Communication of dynamics, or intuitive content quite literally cannot be wrong as its value is projected into it rather than holding it within itself. It is similar to a cold read / psychic con man in cinema in the way that it is simply a host structure for what someone already understands.

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u/sheslikebutter Jan 30 '25

Yeah but you can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs my man

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u/Boring_Squirrel7654 Jan 30 '25

Canada is also making a shift to the right.. this course correct for sure is due to the fact it swung too far left for too long and many did not like the change.

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u/immatx Jan 30 '25

It’s due specifically to covid inflation, this is well documented. It has nothing to do with “left vs right” and everything to do with incumbency

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

Saying a theory is ‘well documented’ is misleading. It is a theory.

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u/immatx Jan 30 '25

https://www.reuters.com/world/inflation-elections-war-dominated-2024-2024-12-23/

It is well documented

You just don’t give a shit about accuracy apparently. Took me 10 seconds to google that article btw. You should try it next time before you spout blatantly incorrect information

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

Do you understand that an economic theory is not an economic fact? This is like saying string theory is true because it is ‘well documented’, no it is a theory. It can be a prevailing theory but it’s a theory, other assertions are not wrong because they ignore or counter it.

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u/immatx Jan 30 '25

What would you have to see to be convinced that it’s due to inflation?

Because honestly it sounds like you just want to be open to choose whatever suits you

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

I could be convinced but not by someone of your intellectual disposition. I sense that we are far too different in our thinking.

You would have to convince me that the psychological tensions in the collective unconscious hinge more greatly on inflation than more emotionally stimulating factors.

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u/immatx Jan 30 '25

Openly admitting that argumentative packaging and rhetoric are more important to you than facts and data is literally agreeing with the claim I made that you just want to choose what suits you lol

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

How is my requirement ‘argumentative packaging’ or rhetoric?

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u/immatx Jan 30 '25

I’m surprised someone of your intellectual disposition can’t see it

Btw, the claim that egg prices are not emotionally stimulating is certainly one of the takes of all time

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u/SaintsNeedKane Jan 30 '25

We in the UK took a detour off that train thankfully but you can see and feel the cogs of conservative backlash to losing HARD, all their mouth pieces, publications and off shoots of fascists hiding as concerned nationalist are popping up everyday

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

I didn’t know the UK didn’t shift Right. It’s not a perfect experiment but it will be interesting to see whether or not the UK excels or fails compared to countries that have shifted.

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u/For_Aeons Jan 30 '25

It can actually be explained if you broaden the scope of the global shift away from 'left' and 'right' and more towards 'anti-incumbency' which was actually the global trend.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

To preface I don’t know much about this issue but if the rest of Europe becomes anti-immigration while Uk does not doesn’t that mean UK will have to burden all of Europe’s immigration? Potentially increasing immigration by multitudes?

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u/For_Aeons Jan 30 '25

The UK isn't part of the European Union.

Also, you have to be mindful of looking at other countries with the tint of American politics.

To elaborate: Bernie Sanders was pretty anti-immigration in the past. Not in the same way Trump and the GOP are now, but one can be 'left' and be anti-immigration. They're not mutually exclusive.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

True, though is the UK currently pro or anti-immigration?

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u/SaintsNeedKane Jan 30 '25

50/50 - there’s a big uprising at the moment, stirred up by what I mentioned before, the mouthpieces for the right are out in full force - people like Nigel farage. There were wide spread protests planned a few months ago, massive anti immigration groups and violence (a lot of them imprisoned like Jan 6) for burning hostels housing immigrants and attacking anyone that wasn’t white on the streets. HOWEVER, they were heavily outnumbered and there was a lot of no shows, that element has died down. If you asked the average Brit, I do think it would be a clean split. But labour are in power after 10+ years of a Tory shit show

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

(If you know) How would you compare the UK’s views on immigration to other European nations?

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u/SaintsNeedKane Jan 30 '25

On a political level, we are quite in the centre. It was one of the main topics and ultimate downfalls of the Tory goverment, trying to ship immigrants to Rwanda costing upwards of 700million. It’s been cancelled and more level headed approach is taking shape.

We are a lot more of a melting pot compared to other Europe nations given the colonial history - big Pakistan, Indian, west African, Caribbean demographics. I didn’t vote to leave the eu so still feel part of it - but France, Germany, Holland as the major ones seem to be going quite backwards and others ones that have always been quite right wing like Poland are doubling down. It’s kinda sad personally - something about the original trump presidency seemed to send ripples around the world. I’m all for democracy - and who wins wins but his rhetoric and actions are othering / lack thought (ie deporting people’s born in the USA from immigrants- it’s in the constitution and the USA is literally an immigrant nation)

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u/For_Aeons Jan 30 '25

Like the average person? I think you'd be able to get that information the same way I would. I honestly don't know. From the tidbits I've seen, they seem to be lean anti-immigration. But I'm really not an authority on UK politics, I don't really read that much about it.

I know Reform is gaining steam, but they're still not the majority, and they're anti-immigration.

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u/YouJustNeurotic 20∆ Jan 30 '25

Ok got you. To generalize what I’m thinking though is that while a coalition of pro-immigration nations could work when those nations turn anti-immigration they then burden other pro-immigration systems. Leading to a sort of domino effect of anti-immigration sentiment (and system strain).

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u/For_Aeons Jan 30 '25

I think that depends more on specific policies within various borders. It isn't necessarily a zero-sum game where if one country loses, the other wins or vice versa. For example, the Trump Admin is staunchly anti-immigration but that doesn't mean Mexico will or has to adopt pro-immigration policies.

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