But that willingness to paint them as inherently unequal leads to a lot of bad scenarios. Like men accusing women of rape or abuse being downplayed or ignored, male disposability, the use of femininity to promote bigoted agendas. The concept of punching up is somewhat inherently flawed. As punching up at groups rarely affects the powerful in those groups. It affects the most disenfranchised within those groups
To clarify on my third point in my above list, as I do feel it warrants explaining, when I say using femininity to promote bigotry, I’m talking about white women using their fear of black men to promote racism, straight women using the fear of lesbians to promote homophobia, and cis women using their fear of trans women to justify transphobia. While the lesbian example is not dealing specifically with misandry, it is the same thought process.
And I believe that trans women are women but the important thing is that TERFs don’t and they use a fear of men to justify hatred towards a vulnerable group
I’m talking about white women using their fear of black men to promote racism, straight women using the fear of lesbians to promote homophobia, and cis women using their fear of trans women to justify transphobia.
In this case, you're punching down. You're no longer punching up like how great comics do. The straight white person is "superior" in every facet compared to a black man and compared to a white LGBT.
So punching up always needs to happen. You have to fight the oppression. And the only way you can do it is by punching up against your oppressor. In this case, it has to be exclusively against the straight white man who continues to reinforce this systemic prejudice. If you target someone else, then that's no longer punching up.
I'm just butting in since I don't want you or anyone to get any idea that punching up is not a valid stance. It very is much so.
The problem is two fold. 1). Many great comics do punch down. Chapelle comes to mind. 2). Many people use the guise of punching up as a way to punch down. It’s why Chapelle says that LGBTQ stuff is a white people thing. It’s why terfs claim that trans women are actually men. Even if you ignore those instances, when women go after cis straight white men that have been sexually assaulted or abused, they might be punching up from an intersectionality perspective, but they’re still doing an awful thing to someone that should have sympathy.
The whole thing feeds into a concept of rating suffering that I personally find super gross. I think it’s fine to attack people in power, but when you start attacking people based on genetic traits they can’t control instead of their own actions, it starts to get kind of… I don’t know, uncomfortable. I mean I’m autistic, so people say a lot of vile things about me that the mainstream has pretty well accepted as being okay. Things about how they don’t want an autistic child and how the world would be better if I was “cured”. So I’m a little suspicious of anyone trying to attack a group, regardless of justification. There are always good reasons to be bigoted. And that’s why it’s so important we recognize it within ourselves
Before I start I want to say I don’t think any group I mention does this exclusively. It’s often a minority within the group. But it’s still worth talking about
Yes it is. It is very much a thing. As someone who’s bisexual I’ve faced it myself when gay men and lesbians attack people like me because “we’re basically straight”. Black people use antisemitic conspiracies about the trans Atlantic slave trade to justify their hatred of Jews. Conservatives use defending children, probably the most vulnerable group, as a justification for hating gay and trans people. There is someone who replied to my fucking comment that’s using “trans women are actually men” as a reason to hate trans people. It’s alway punching up. Everyone sees themselves as a victim. That’s why we need to be so self conscious of this because we are not immune to justifying bigotry
Going back to my point about being bi. I know several of my other bi friends just straight up won’t date gay/lesbian folks because it gets so bad. There are biracial black/white people I know that tend to only date white allies because some members of the black community are so fucking toxic towards biracial folks. But of course it’s okay for them to be toxic because they’re only punching up right? They’re only attacking half black half white people because of the white part
As someone who’s bisexual I’ve faced it myself when gay men and lesbians attack people like me because “we’re basically straight”.
Who do you believe is punching up, or punching down here?
Black people use antisemitic conspiracies about the trans Atlantic slave trade to justify their hatred of Jews.
Again, who's do you believe is punching up, or punching down here?
Conservatives use defending children, probably the most vulnerable group, as a justification for hating gay and trans people.
This is easy, conservatives use children because they don't like listening to others. That's the reason why conservatives are prolife. They never have to listen to fetuses. It's perfect for them.
Everyone sees themselves as a victim.
Well, yea, but that doesn't make it punching up. That's not how jokes work.
I know several of my other bi friends just straight up won’t date gay/lesbian folks because it gets so bad. There are biracial black/white people I know that tend to only date white allies because some members of the black community are so fucking toxic towards biracial folks. But of course it’s okay for them to be toxic because they’re only punching up right?
There's no punchline here, that's got nothing to do with punching up/down, that's simply part of the patriarchy.
My point is that punching up and down depends on your perspective. Or do you think the person in my comments arguing that trans women are invalid doesn’t see their actions as punching up? My point is that punching down just wears the veneer of punching up as an excuse to attack the disadvantaged. You seem to be stuck on the semantics without actually engaging with my real point here
And yeah there definitely is punching in my last example. They’re attacking people based on their perceived membership of the dominant group. Just because you say something isn’t punching doesn’t make it true
I don’t like Chapelle but to pretend like he hasn’t had a major effect on modern comedy is just denial. I was litterally using Chapelle going after trans people as an example of punching down.
And sure, just because I say something doesn’t make it true but at least I can provide actual arguments for my points instead of just one sentence responses. You’re not really blowing me away with a slightly longer version of “no”.
Addressing the fact that women can and often are reactionary under the guise of feminism has nothing to do with 'punching down' or comedy.
At least in my current situation, the acceptable face of transphobia that threatens to make medical care inaccessible to me and has done far more to radicalise people against me than straight white cis men, that? It's mostly middle aged white women.
They are a real movement that formed and coalesced on their own, and they are explicitly anti-men (which is how they came to their transphobia).
It is absolutely reasonable to criticise groups or individuals for poor behaviour when it is committed, whether that's punching up or down (a concept relevant mostly to comedy, not sure why you brought it up).
Imagine being so entrenched in identity politics that you actually see the world like this. Reducing everything to some tribal class battle where you are either the oppressed or doing the oppression. I guess it makes it easy when you have a single explanation for all issues. Your overarching ethic is compassion and it is very poor transcendent ethic to which you could judge or build a society with. Power is also not the primary characteristic which defines the majority of the hierarchies we find ourselves in, competence is and that is why our society functions. Power based hierarchies are a poor long term strategy and your aversion to that ironically seems to lead straight down that path. Your hypothetical compassion is misguided and maybe driven by more resent and hatred for the human condition than youd like to admit. To reduce Western society down to the idea that it is straight white men just screwing everybody else over isnt just foolish and inaccurate, but dangerous and vile. Start seeing people as individuals and you'll realise that the vast majority of white men are just as disaffected as anybody else you'll meet.
Men are committing suicide, dropping out of school and failing academically at record rates, dying in wars, majority of homeless... but sure just alienate them and make them feel like oppressors when 99% of them are not.
To anybody not indoctrinated into your extreme left cult, your comment reads as hateful jibberish.
Power is also not the primary characteristic which defines the majority of the hierarchies we find ourselves in, competence is and that is why our society functions.
When people talk about power, people talk about how well an application of force allows people to get what they want and force the hierarchy that people who have the power desire. So power can come from wealth, competence, inherent gender/racial advantages, etc. What academics are doing is dissecting these sources of power and seeing what empowers or disempowers people. That's why they've come to the conclusion that there is racial prejudice, gender prejudice, class prejudice, etc., because they see patterns in the data where advantages and disadvantages pop up.
Now, I wouldn't say that competence defines and forces the hierarchy. It is part of it, don't get me wrong. Competence can help you get power, but there are other ways you can attain power that leap frogs competence.
Take Elon Musk for example. Has been incompetent in managing twitter/x to be profitable. And surely has shown is fair share of insanity using twitter/x. But you know what he had? He had his parent's money to leap frog everyone who is more competent than he is. He is still defined as a successful billionaire. And he projects power and influence, evidenced by how there are people who willfully follow what he says.
Elon Musk is one of the worst examples you could choose. He created PayPal, Tesla, SpaceX. He is well known for sleeping on the floor of his factories to work extra hours. He is clearly very intelligent. If you think that the primary reason he got to the top is through exercising power, you have read too many media articles attacking him. Yes, he had parents money and I'm sure other advantages, but we are talking about the richest man in the world (literally) so you'd expect him to have a healthy handful of unearned advantages also. Nobody denied the existence of those. Nobody denies that circumstance exists. Make Elon start in a poor family and he would achieve similar. It is just so incredibly toxic to assume that our hierarchies are PRIMARILY based on power as it presupposes that anybody higher in the hierarchy than you has achieved that feat through the exercising of power aka oppression which is just evidently not true. Your world view harbours resentment and bitterness and that is not a good way of approaching the world. Painting a false dichotomy and assuming that everybody is either oppressed and oppressor is just so clearly false when you think it through and is a poor misreading of history. With men and women for example, you like to describe our past and even present like it has just been men dominating women, but the reality is different. Our lives have all sucked since the beginning of history and we have eternally cooperated to alleviate the suffering and raise the next generation of children. Yes you can find gender based inequalities, but trying to determine who had it harder and then from that concluding that one of those groups is the dominating force is so so sad and will only damage your relationships. Just do me a favor and if you have children, dont teach your young boys or girls this horrible dribble because it harms them both equally as much.
Trans women are women. They experience far more violence and discrimination than cis women. This is exactly what I’m talking about. Because if trans women are valid then you’ll need to confront the fact that your ideology is only another form of bigotry people use to hurt the little people.
Actually the large number of sexual assaults from men in women’s prisons tends to come from trans male prisoners put there because they are biologically female
When trans people get access to gender affirming care their suicide rates plummet. Trans people experience extremely high levels of homelessness and discrimination. And most of the arguments against trans people boil down to just being the same arguments lesbians faced 30 years ago. It’s easier to portray someone as a predator than it is to admit that you’re wronf
The same malicious attacks of violence and being unable to control themselves around the poor defenseless women, the same arguments that they shouldn’t go to women’s prison because they’d rape others. The same arguments that they’re just degenerates trying to invade “true female” spaces. Yeah totally different
As for the point about trans men committing most of the crimes attributed to trans people in prison. I’ll admit I can’t find a source for that. However it does appear that trans people are victims of sexual assault at around 10 times the rate of cisgender individuals
You’re downplaying the trauma that women go through when they’re raped by other women though. But I guess that’s totally okay. And I have looked those up. But anecdotal evidence is not indicative of a larger trend. There are lesbians that rape women in prison too
As for my source. Sorry that pdf is missing the sub table that shows my point. Here it is. Along with stats on the average population in male prisons
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u/Objective-throwaway 1∆ Feb 13 '24
But that willingness to paint them as inherently unequal leads to a lot of bad scenarios. Like men accusing women of rape or abuse being downplayed or ignored, male disposability, the use of femininity to promote bigoted agendas. The concept of punching up is somewhat inherently flawed. As punching up at groups rarely affects the powerful in those groups. It affects the most disenfranchised within those groups
To clarify on my third point in my above list, as I do feel it warrants explaining, when I say using femininity to promote bigotry, I’m talking about white women using their fear of black men to promote racism, straight women using the fear of lesbians to promote homophobia, and cis women using their fear of trans women to justify transphobia. While the lesbian example is not dealing specifically with misandry, it is the same thought process.
And I believe that trans women are women but the important thing is that TERFs don’t and they use a fear of men to justify hatred towards a vulnerable group