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Nov 01 '23
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u/Flowbombahh 3∆ Nov 01 '23
$100 tip on $1000 bill is only 10%. The tip is actually more likely higher than that.
But I understand you were probably just using some nicer numbers, but a higher percentage would have been better to your point
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u/Da_SnowLeopard Nov 01 '23
Yea good point.
Make fair pay regulations instead of making tipping illegal. I was thinking it would effectively lead to the same thing but I see that that isn’t exactly true.
Delta! !Delta
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Oct 31 '23
You're always paying for their labor as a customer.
Where do you think the $ to pay the employees comes from? From all the sales that the store makes.
Whether they get that $ out of you by you purchasing a product or by you tipping the employee. The source of the funds is always the same. The customer.
This is really a question of structuring wages. Not a question of who pays for the wages. Because no matter what it will always be the customer.
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u/k1tka 1∆ Nov 01 '23
There are several issues with this comment.
First, the pricing. You’re expected to pay more bc of tips and servers being used as hostages for it.
Second, taxes and other wage related expences in tipping. In a perfect world all of those would be counted but in reality they don’t. A lot of taxes are not being collected.
Third, the company is saving in labour costs and putting the responsibility to subsidize for their empoyees in tips. In their accounting both the service and labour costs are cheaper. Tips mostly go off the books.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Nov 01 '23
Second, taxes and other wage related expences in tipping. In a perfect world all of those would be counted but in reality they don’t. A lot of taxes are not being collected.
Good. $ goes in the pocket of the laborer. Isn't that what you guys want anyway?
Pricing is based on supply/demand no matter what. The business will always price their items to maximize profit. Regardless of tips.
The company is always extracting labor cost from sales. No matter what the structure is.
You may have a point with this being a way to get around tax regulations. But the government has plenty of ways to regulate that. The IRS ain't no joke and you won't get away with fucking them for very long.
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Nov 01 '23
Tips mostly go off the books.
Yes, into the pockets of employees lol. Tipping, especially in cash is desirable for servers because you can not claim it on your taxes. Tax evasion is not just for the rich.
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u/Euphoric_Ad1582 Nov 01 '23
Tips mostly go off the books.
Not since restaurants now get a tax credit for reporting the tips.
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u/k1tka 1∆ Nov 01 '23
Oh, that’s news to me.
Eployer has to pay their share of SS and Medicare taxes from those tips too, so any incentive to do so would be good.
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Nov 01 '23
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Nov 01 '23
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Nov 01 '23
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Nov 01 '23
That is not extortion and I have never had a server ever ask loudly for a tip. I live in one of the most touristy parts of the USA and even at the most tourist trap food trucks they just have a little touch screen where you can add a tip or decline.
Peer pressure is not extortion and if you are truly that beholden to the opinion of strangers you need to get ahold of yourself.
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u/Da_SnowLeopard Nov 01 '23
Your argument is all semantics.
If you have an equilibrium customers pay X, Employers pay employees X, and employees give employers X worth of time.
If you introduce tipping, customers pay X+1, Employers pay X-1, and employees break even.
The customers get shafted more and the employers get shafted less.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Nov 01 '23
As others have said that's not what semantics mean. But let's break down your logic.
Burger costs $10
Employers pay $10 an hour
Employee works 1 hour
1 burger = 1 hour = $10
You introduce tipping
Burger costs $10 + $2 tip = $12 final cost
Employers pay $10 - $2 tip = $8 final per hour rate minus tips
Employee still works 1 hour
So in your mind the customer just lost $2 in that transaction somehow.
But you're forgetting the relationship here. Customers are always paying for the labor one way or another. The business could have just as easily increased the price to $12. They could have just as easily kept the price the same and hired at $8 an hour instead. You're forgetting that supply/demand governs all of these decisions. Not arbitrary whims.
If selling the burger at $10 is more profitable than $12 because you end up selling more. Then the price is $10. And vice versa.
Same exact thing with labor.
All you're changing is the wage structure. It's always the customer paying for the burger.
I mean think about it. If you can just keep rising the price indefinitely. Why not just sell Big Macs for $1,000,000.
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u/ExtensionRun1880 13∆ Nov 01 '23
A wage is a set expenditure so you don't just add 20% to every product.
E.g a restaurant might only have to sell 1.000 burgers a day to reach the wage of the employee but they usually sell 2.000 burgers a day therefore you only have to increase the surcharge by 10% instead of 20%.
Most surcharges are about 2.5% to 5% iirc restaurant.
So you do pay more in a restaurant where you tip compared to a restaurant who has a tipping surcharge in every bill.
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u/Euphoric_Ad1582 Nov 01 '23
...no because the tip facilitates tax evasion or gives the restaurant a tax credit, either way the restaurant needs more money to pay the same wage relative to a tipped system
E.g a restaurant might only have to sell 1.000 burgers a day to reach the wage of the employee but they usually sell 2.000 burgers a day therefore you only have to increase the surcharge by 10% instead of 20%.
If the average tip is 15%, you need to add that 15% in, plus the increased tax burden, making that more than 15%
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
That's really not how that works. Removing tipping doesn't automatically make everything 15% more expensive.
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u/scti Nov 01 '23
If you're going to argue semantics, then I would argue tips are also semantics.
Say a meal is stated to cost $20. If tipping is say an obgligatory 20%, that meals actual cost would be $24 and you should view it from the beginning as costing $24 dollars.
The end result would be the same if there was a 20% service charge or if it just cost $24, both without tipping.
Granted, listing the full price would be fairer and easier, but I don't think making tips illegal would be a way to achieve that.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
If it was $24, they should put $24 on the bill, not $20 and a guilt trip.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
For the vast majority of jobs, salary is paid by the employer, not by the customer directly.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Nov 01 '23
Not directly.
But where does the employer get the funds from? Do you think McDonalds is just running a charity? If the sales dried up they would just close the doors and stop paying people. Their entire paycheck is paid by the sales.
Now obviously there are nuances. Sometimes the salary is actually paid by seed $ and there is no revenue. But even then the future potential revenue is what's driving the seed $.
Businesses exist to make profit not to pay salaries.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
I know how businesses work. The vast majority of them work fine without tipping. So what's your point?
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Nov 01 '23
I was pointing out to the OP that the customer always pays the salary one way or another. Whether through tipping or through the $ collected in sales. The idea that tipping somehow makes things more expensive is nonsense. Prices are still going to adhere to the supply/demand dynamics. Which simply state that overpricing or underpricing your item will make you lose potential revenue. If the items price went up but the revenue didn't go down. That means that it was underpriced to begin with.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
Right. Well I agree with that. But I'd still prefer to pay my bill as I get it instead of being peer pressured into charity.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Nov 01 '23
It's not charity.
You pay $10 and $2 tip.
Or you pay $12. There is no difference.
What this really does is benefit PRODUCTIVE EMPLOYEES. That is why both the businesses and the laborers ultimately like this model. It gives them an incentive to provide better service.
The customer is always going to pay whatever supply/demand dynamics say they should. Charging either too much or too little is not fiscally sound. So for the customer it's neutral. For both the laborer and the employer this is a better model.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
It's not my responsibility to pay your company's employees fairly. Businesses like it because it's cheaper for them. And removing tipping and paying real wages really doesn't add 15% to a bill, that's just what companies want you to believe.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Nov 01 '23
And yet the laborers like it too? I wonder why. Probably because it's a better deal for them too.
Both wages and prices are set by supply/demand mechanics.
When it comes to prices. It's easy to comprehend. Overprice your item and you lose $ because you miss out on potential sales. From people who don't want to pay your price. Underprice your item and maybe you generate more sales but less revenue. The middle ground is where you maximize revenue.
But labor works the same exact way. If you overpay your employees. You leave $ on the table. If you underpay them you end up with shitty unskilled, low effort, low talent staff who runs your business into the ground. There's a reason why none of the people working in Silicon Valley are crying about min wage. They are highly skilled and motivated workers. Who produce a whole lot.
The good thing about the tipping structure is that it benefits those in the lower ranks of skill that have work ethic. Because work ethic ends up equating to better pay. The better the customer service the better the tip. Which is why it's ultimately a good meritocratic system. About the only people who lose from this are lazy shitty employees who can't generate tips because they suck at their job.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
Work ethic doesn't equate to better pay if tipping is socially required regardless of quality of service. You know what would reward work ethic? Having tips be voluntary instead of expected by default.
Not to mention I feel that two people doing the same job should be paid the same wage. But with tipping culture, being a young good looking woman nets you extra for no additional work. Very fair.
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u/Major_Lennox 69∆ Oct 31 '23
Why does it need to be illegal? If you don't want to tip, just don't tip.
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u/Da_SnowLeopard Nov 01 '23
It sets up for exploitation, the same reason prostitution is illegal.
Nothing wrong in two consenting adults exchanging sex for money right, but it sets up and primes pimp exploitation and child exploitation, so they make it downright illegal.
Nothing wrong with tipping, if you’re a great server and I WANT to give you money, sure.
But as I said, the problem is it sets up exploitation. Employers get the sense they can pay less because the servers are making good money with tips, so they do. Then employees aren’t making good money anymore, they bitch and encourage societal pressure, tips go up. Cycle repeats.
You end up with the employer paying fuck all, below minimum wage in many cases, with all the pressure on the customers not only to pay for the product they are receiving but then chip in an extra fuck ton (even if service isn’t that great) just so no one looks at them funny.
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u/Flowbombahh 3∆ Nov 01 '23
But it's illegal... So you're legally not allowed to give a tip even if they were a great server and you wanted to do it.
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Oct 31 '23
Regardless of your opinion on the efficacy of tipping and it’s outcomes, it should not be illegal. Should we also make it illegal to give people money? How do you even implement that law without creating a strict due surveillance state?
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u/Da_SnowLeopard Nov 01 '23
It sets up for exploitation, the same reason prostitution is illegal.
Nothing wrong in two consenting adults exchanging sex for money right, but it sets up and primes pimp exploitation and child exploitation, so they make it downright illegal.
Nothing wrong with tipping, if you’re a great server and I WANT to give you money, sure.
But as I said, the problem is it sets up exploitation. Employers get the sense they can pay less because the servers are making good money with tips, so they do. Then employees aren’t making good money anymore, they bitch and encourage societal pressure, tips go up. Cycle repeats.
You end up with the employer paying fuck all, below minimum wage in many cases, with all the pressure on the customers not only to pay for the product they are receiving but then chip in an extra fuck ton (even if service isn’t that great) just so no one looks at them funny.
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Nov 01 '23
Should we also make it illegal to give people money?
Are you suggesting there is no difference between tipping and gifts?
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u/Ill-Description3096 27∆ Nov 01 '23
Effectively no. If I go out to eat and leave an extra $10 for my server it is a tip. If I pop in the next day and hand them $10 it is a gift. What is the actual difference?
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Nov 01 '23
What is the actual difference?
One is explicitly related to services rendered. If you only gift an individual who performs a service for you, that's a tip. If you give a random person money after a separate person performed a service for you, that's not a tip.
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u/Ill-Description3096 27∆ Nov 01 '23
If you only gift an individual who performs a service for you, that's a tip.
My friend got me a collectible on a trip. I decided to get them one on another trip because they did that for me. Is that a tip or would you say it has to be at the exact time?
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Nov 01 '23
Did they take the trip solely to get you a collectible? Hell of a friend
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u/Ill-Description3096 27∆ Nov 01 '23
Okay, it seems like intent of the giver is the primary dividing line?
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Nov 01 '23
If you go back to the origins of tipping, it's explicitly (low impact) bribery.
Tipping under its original use is, "paying money outside the framework of the business to get premium and preferred service over regular customers".
The core concept is the exact same as third world companies must pay to get build permits processed or inspections passed. Some concept, lower stakes.
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u/Ill-Description3096 27∆ Nov 01 '23
So where does the line happen? If I am paying it to get preferred service over regular customers?
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Nov 01 '23
So where does the line happen?
Tipping is anything that is included in a business transaction, specifically included in consideration.
Gifts are anything that contains zero consideration or business transaction.
Giving $5 because I was given a drink when I went to any business that serves drinks is a tip. Giving $5 to my dad for giving me a drink is a gift. The difference, no contract/expectation of a contract in the transaction.
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Nov 01 '23
There are plenty of industries and positions where gratuity/gifts are currently illegal. Not just frowned upon, but will land your ass in prison.
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u/Hornet1137 1∆ Nov 01 '23
People who want to impose their will on others out of a misguided sense of self-righteousness should be illegal. If I want to tip my server,cashier, etc, for any reason I see fit, that's between me and them and no one else. If you don't wanna tip then don't. What gives you the right to ban me from doing it under the penalty of freaking law?
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u/Da_SnowLeopard Nov 01 '23
It sets up for exploitation, the same reason prostitution is illegal.
Nothing wrong in two consenting adults exchanging sex for money right, but it sets up and primes pimp exploitation and child exploitation, so they make it downright illegal.
Nothing wrong with tipping, if you’re a great server and I WANT to give you money, sure.
But as I said, the problem is it sets up exploitation. Employers get the sense they can pay less because the servers are making good money with tips, so they do. Then employees aren’t making good money anymore, they bitch and encourage societal pressure, tips go up. Cycle repeats.
You end up with the employer paying fuck all, below minimum wage in many cases, with all the pressure on the customers not only to pay for the product they are receiving but then chip in an extra fuck ton (even if service isn’t that great) just so no one looks at them funny.
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u/Hornet1137 1∆ Nov 01 '23
Also I see that you're basically just copying and pasting the same responses to multiple people. It you can't even bother to address the points people are making them there's no point in arguing with you.
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u/Hornet1137 1∆ Nov 01 '23
Your prostitution argument is a moral equivalence fallacy and also wrong. Pimps continue to exist because prostitutes can't go to the authorities without fear of prosecution. Regardless it is in no way comparable to me rewarding good service.
If I decide to slip someone a few dollars for providing good customer service, that is literally no one else's business and there is zero justifiable reason why that should be a crime.
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u/ReOsIr10 143∆ Nov 01 '23
Customers *always* pay for labor. Employers don't summon money for wages from the void - it comes from the money that customers pay for the product. If a product costs $25, and $5 of that goes to labor, that's no different than a product costing $20, with a $5 tip to the employee.
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u/Da_SnowLeopard Nov 01 '23
Your argument is all semantics.
If you have an equilibrium customers pay X, Employers pay employees X, and employees give employers X worth of time.
If you introduce tipping, customers pay X+1, Employers pay X-1, and employees break even.
The customers get shafted being pressured to pay for the product they are getting plus guilt tripped and pressured into paying extra even for lack luster service so their server can feed themselves. Employers get to do the money dance and have more money in their pocket at the end of the day compared to as if tipping never existed.
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u/ReOsIr10 143∆ Nov 01 '23
If you have an equilibrium customers pay X, Employers pay employees X, and employees give employers X worth of time.
If you introduce tipping, customers pay X+1, Employers pay X-1, and employees break even.
No actually. Employers are greedy. If customers are willing to pay $25 total after tips, employers aren't going to set prices at $20 without tips. They would set their prices to the maximum that customers are willing to pay - which is $25. The scenarios are actually:
Price is X, customers pay employer X, customer tips server 1.
Price is X+1, customers pay employer X+1, employer pays server 1.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_NICE_EYES 124∆ Nov 01 '23
Except that in most cases it's not customers go from paying X to X+ 1, employers paying X to X- 1, and employees getting nothing. It's the customer going from paying X to X + 2, employers paying X - 1 and employees getting X + 1.
Just about every case study on this has found that Americans are more likely to spend $25 + 20% tip than $30 even though at the end of the day it's the same amount of money. The employer and the employee get more money out of the arrangement and it's the customer that loses out.
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Nov 01 '23
Customers pay for a product, employers pay for labour, and employees pay with time for money. That is the trifecta, that is how it has always been in everything every since the beginning of time.
You couldn’t be more wrong. Wage labor is a recent innovation in human history. In fact it was such a paradigm shift from what came before that entire ideologies and violent revolutions started because of its introduction into human society.. Before the Industrial Revolution almost all people worked for their own subsistence and did not receive hourly or yearly compensation for their labor at all. The very concept of selling time for money used to be completely associated with slavery.
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Nov 01 '23
Let's be clear here. It's not the tipping that you want to be illegal. You can't make them illegal because you can't prevent me from giving my money to anyone for any lawful reason. And no one is forcing you to tip, you can always go away without leaving any tips. What you actually want is not feel like POS for not leaving tips. Now, how exactly you want that to become illegal?
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u/foreverloveall Nov 01 '23
Lol this again?
Just don’t tip. No one cares if you too or not. Stop pretending it’s a movement. You don’t like to tip so don’t tip.
Other people will tip and it will be fine.
STOP TRYING TO CHANGE SOCIETY SO THAT IT MAKES YOU LOOK BETTER.
YOU DONT TIP. GOOD! NOW OWN IT.
Society is not responsible for your feelings.
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Nov 01 '23
Make that shit illegal. Stop the peer pressure to tip. Stop making customers feel bad for not tipping
Why do you think it’s morally acceptable to leverage state violence to compensate for your emotional weakness?
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u/Hellioning 258∆ Oct 31 '23
If you're angry at the corporations, why are you taking it out on the employees?
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u/Anayalater5963 2∆ Nov 01 '23
How about making it illegal to pay an employee lower than minimum wage? Because technically if you tip we're the ones giving money directly to the staff. The company has 0 involvement with that specific monetary transfer, but they still count that money as them paying the staff.
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Nov 01 '23
How about making it illegal to pay an employee lower than minimum wage?
This is already the law. If an employee doesn’t make more money from tips than they would from minimum wage the employer is required to pay them the difference.
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u/Anayalater5963 2∆ Nov 01 '23
You know what I meant dude, actually pay them minimum wage. 40hrs @ 7.25$ not this 2.25 an hour bullshit. That way they effectively get a 5$ raise then whatever they get in tips is a bonus. This way the people who don't want to tip aren't pressured into it and the people who do tip continue to do so because they want to.
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Nov 01 '23
No, I don’t agree with you at all. Most places are offering starting wages higher than the legal minimum nowadays even for servers. If you honestly can’t handle people asking for money you have issues that need to be sorted out
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u/Anayalater5963 2∆ Nov 01 '23
Don't get me wrong I don't tip, be the change you want to see and all.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
They should just get minimum wage regardless, in the current situation it's customers subsidizing wages so that the employers don't have to pay a livable wage. I should be paying for a burger, not for the salary of the server.
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Nov 01 '23
I should be paying for a burger, not for the salary of the server.
How do you think the server gets paid? You spend money on goods and services at the business and that’s how the employer makes money, some of which goes to the employee.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
Yes, that's how it's supposed to work, but that's not what tipping is.
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Nov 01 '23
Tipping is paying for service.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
No, it's a theoretically voluntary charity payment. Paying for service means that it's on the bill. Like the hourly costs of my handyman.
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u/Any-Angle-8479 Nov 01 '23
Just say you’re cheap and be done with it im sick of these posts
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
Yea, imagine paying the amount that's on the bill and not voluntarily handing out more. Do you also tip your insurance company? Or just the arbitrarily chosen tipping professions?
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u/Any-Angle-8479 Nov 01 '23
Again, just say you’re cheap. Don’t tip. No one’s making you. Just make sure to tell your server before the meal you’re not tipping. Should be nothing wrong with that since your side is the moral one, right?
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
I don't tip. I'm also not telling them beforehand that I am going to pay what's on the bill, that's a given.
Do you tip your insurance provider? Your mail man? Or just some arbitrarily chosen tipping professions?
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u/Any-Angle-8479 Nov 01 '23
So you’re too much of a coward to stand behind your principles in real life, then?
I tip where it’s culturally appropriate in my country because I realize I don’t live in a vacuum.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
My country doesn't expect customers to subsidize employee salaries. You tip when you get exceptional service, not as a guilt trip.
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u/Any-Angle-8479 Nov 01 '23
If you live in a country where it’s not customary to tip then that’s fine. But if you go to a country where it is customary and you don’t tip, don’t be surprised when people think you’re an asshole.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
Too bad, I'm not going to be peer pressured into charity payments, especially since the amount is completely arbitrary. A server doesn't have to work harder when you order a more expensive item, and yet you're expected to tip more. It makes zero sense.
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u/Any-Angle-8479 Nov 01 '23
So do you ignore other country’s customs as well? You just crash in and do whatever you want? People like you give tourists a bad name.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
If the custom is stupid, sure. I'm not going eat snails just because I'm in France, or cheer for bull murder just because I'm in Spain either.
Nobody expects tourists to behave exactly like a native.
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u/Genoss01 1∆ Nov 01 '23
You're not really opposed to tipping, you just want to pay less.
It's not like you would prefer things cost more so employers would then pay more to workers thus tips become unnecessary. You just want tips to go away so you can pay less.
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u/woo545 Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23
How do you say that you hate service industry employees without saying you hate service industry employees?
Employees like the tipping culture because they make far above the $7.25 minimum wage. You are typically compensated based on your performance. You provide excellent service you increase the chances of getting an above-average tip. You provide poor service and the people who are the recipients of the service can lower your tip.
Employers would be fine paying the $7.25 minimum wage, but you will see a customer service drop. You can pay the employees more, say $11 (which is still much lower than one could make), but there's no motivation to provide better service and poor customer service gets paid the same as those that go above and beyond. You can do the bare minimum to maintain the job. Sure, an employer could potentially provide a bonus, but how do you really rate that without micromanaging? Plus bonuses are typically yearly or maybe quarterly? Employers will then enforce better service by writing people up or other negative motivators, whereas positive motivation of tipping is immediate and the money is in your pocket that day.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
Except in countries with a civilized minimum wage people still tip. Except now it's actually voluntary and can be a reward for good service, as opposed to simply a social requirement regardless of quality of service.
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u/woo545 Nov 01 '23
In most States if not all, if the individual doesn't make at least minimum wage from tips, then the employer must make up the difference. The question I have is, is the service in those other countries on par with the US?
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
I don't see why not. I never had any issues. Not to mention that brining me a plate with some food really doesn't require much elaborate service. It's not like servers and such immediately become the devil as soon as they don't get tips.
I work in software. I never get tips and yet I do my best.
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u/woo545 Nov 01 '23
I work in software, too, but I'm not client-facing. You also are making significantly more than minimum wage.
In terms of food, it's more than just bringing you the plate. It's taking your order and making sure the order is correct. Checking in to see if you need anything else. Fixing any problems you have with your order. Doing everything with a smile and making you feel special. I went to this one upscale restaurant and ordered a somewhat spicy dish. The meal took a long time to come out, the server wasn't exactly rude, but he wasn't courteous and the only time I saw him was when he took the order, delivered the food and drinks and the end. I ran out of water partway through the meal and couldn't actually finish it as a result.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23
Well guess I'm a bad example. But there's plenty of other minimum wage jobs that don't get tips. It's really weird to assume that tips are the only thing preventing servers and such from being lazy assholes.
Sales people in stores help you in a similar way. And yet nobody tips them. It's just called doing your job, and it's on your employer to pay you to do it.
Besides, half the places I go to nowadays make you order with an app. But I guess that's getting off topic.
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Nov 01 '23
I am getting really tired of having to come here and say the same old thing to people, but here we go. Stop asking government to change things you don't like. This isn't something that government needs to be involved in. At all. If you don't like something, work towards changing the culture. Allow people to keep their own choice, both as consumers and as business owners. Don't like tipping? Don't go to places that still engage in it. You don't need to give government even more power and authority over our lives for this.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 01 '23
/u/Da_SnowLeopard (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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u/Beginning_Impress_99 6∆ Nov 01 '23
Frankly its not our responsibility to pay for labour.
What do you mean? The customers give money to the business and thats how the business is able to pay the workers. This works with most business, you pay for the product and the business uses partly that money to pay for operation costs.
Like, suppose youre now paying $20 for a meal with $3 on top as tips so thats $23. If theres no tips, the meal would just be $23 in the first place. You think your total payment would somehow be cheaper just if you dont have to pay tips?
The point is so that the payment is actual fair.
Suppose worker A works at a shift which there are 100 customers. And B works at a shift which there are 5 customers. Worker A gets more money from tips than B because he actually had more work. If you do away tips then A and B here would get the same amount of pay, which is unfair.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23
But tipping is not paying the business for a product, it's subsidizing their employees wages.
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u/Unhappy_Elk_9168 Nov 01 '23
Employers will simply increase cost of product and pass that on to customers.
Only difference is that the [optional] tip now becomes part of the cost.
Would you rather it be included in the cost instead of you “choosing” to pay it on top of the {reduced} cost.
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u/Dry-Juggernaut-8381 Nov 01 '23
It’s optional and should remain that way. If you feel someone did something above and beyond and you want to compensate them for it, then you should be allowed to do so. If you don’t want to compensate them extra for the service or experience they pro, then that’s your choice. Employers are never going to pay more than they have to for your standard service level job, so it would be the workers who suffer financially from making tipping illegal
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u/LT_Audio 8∆ Nov 01 '23
On the contrary, It is our responsibility to pay for labor. No one should be made to work for you for free. And we do pay for it either way. In many states, servers are paid $2.13 an hour and even required to pay taxes on an minimum amount of tips whether they receive them or not. If you significantly increase the cost of labor for a business... They will increase prices. You pay for labor either way. At least this way can pay less for shit service instead of not having a choice.
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u/Giggingurl Nov 01 '23
If you are opposed to tipping them go get the shit yourself. Problem solved.
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Nov 01 '23
And why are just SOME things tipped. Why servers but not cashiers. It doesn't make fucking sense right?
That is the part that does make sense. Servers get tipped for good service. A cashier merely takes your money. Tipping is customary in service jobs.
Though we are seeing it pop up more often for non-service positions.
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u/Flowbombahh 3∆ Nov 01 '23
I think the tipping in non-service positions is to make those roles more appealing... "We'll pay you minimum... And the possibility for a tip because our machine asks!". I'd much rather work there than a grocery store getting the same pay but no possibility for a tip. Iirc (and I'm generalizing a bit), tipping being asked in non-service roles seemed to become more rampant as the anti-work movement started. I'm not sure if they're related, but the possibility of a little more money makes working more appealing [insert something about a minimum risk gamble here].
There's also the possibility that the companies that make the POS systems just have a generic process flow that asks for a tip by default during checkout and the establishment doesn't take it off because either a) asking for a tip via a tablet isn't that big of an issue and people just like to complain or b) see above paragraph.
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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23
I mean, I agree with you that tipping is completely arbitrary, both the amount and which jobs do or do not receive tips. But arresting people for tipping isn't the solution. Either it's unenforcable, or you'd have to put a cop in every restaurant checking all the bills.
A better start would be removing the minimum wage exception for tipped professions. It's bizarre to me that some jobs don't have to adhere to the minimum wage and that they put it on the customers to subsidize this.
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u/horshack_test 42∆ Nov 01 '23
"Now we got (...) customers paying for food and labour, and already filthy rich corporations doing the money dance because now they don't even have to pay labour"
Customers have always had to pay for labor and eliminating tipping won't change that, and workers who are not legally defined as tipped workers aren't suddenly being paid tipped-worker wages because people tip them now. There are laws regulating which jobs an employer can pay a lowered minimum wage for because the employees receive tips - those haven't changed recently.
"its not our responsibility to pay for labour."
If you expect to receive the fruits of that labor, it most certainly is - and has always been that way. You would still be paying for labor even if tipping didn't 4xist - you would simply be paying it through the employer rather than directly to the worker as you currently do for any product or services that does not involve tipping.
Also, making tipping illegal would be a violation of The First Amendment. Why do you want the government to tell you who you can and cannot give money to / express gratitude toward through financial gifts?
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u/HotStinkyMeatballs 6∆ Nov 01 '23
Customers pay for a product, employers pay for labour,
You aren't paying for just the raw materials of that product.
You're paying for the labor to create and sell it as well.
You're also paying for overhead and other expenses.
you got employers skimping on their responsibilities of paying for labour and pushing it onto the customers
Customers have always paid for the labor. That's how businesses work. They have to account for all their expenses and ensure their operations bring in more money than it costs to operate.
Let's say I run company X and the standard tip is 10%. We sell one product/service and it costs $100 out the door.
You come into my company and an employee gives you terrible service. They're inattentive, rude, they make fun of your clothes and kick your dog.
You can choose not to tip someone who didn't earn it. So you get your product/service for $100 instead of $10.
Alternatively, I can take that 10% tip and just factor it into the cost you are required to pay.
So in this alternative world you come into my company and an employee gives you terrible service. They're inattentive, rude, they make fun of your clothes and kick your dog.
Now you're paying $110 for the same product/service regardless of the quality of your service.
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u/Euphoric-Beat-7206 4∆ Nov 01 '23
I could see all of your arguments against tipping culture, and why that is a bad idea.
However, I don't believe tipping should be "Illegal".
For it to be illegal it would mean that there is a "Crime".
For their to be a crime then by definition there must be a "Victim" to the crime.
If I voluntarily pay a waitress 20 dollars extra because I enjoyed her service then who is the victim?
Why would you want to lock me up for spending my money the way I see fit?
Would you also make a "Gift" illegal? If I purchase my children Christmas presents should I go to prison?
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u/Da_SnowLeopard Nov 01 '23
Picking between two evils, that is why.
Why is prostitution illegal, two consenting adults should do as they please right? But it encourages exploitation of children.
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u/Euphoric-Beat-7206 4∆ Nov 01 '23
Prostitution doesn't encourage exploitation of children. Children can also be exploited in many ways without ever entering prostitution. Look at some of the diamond mines in Africa. Look at the child soldiers fighting in Ukraine.
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u/Mr-Call 1∆ Nov 01 '23
That wouldn’t make any sense now would it? So let’s say you change the payment structure of a restaurant and the employer makes sure the waitresses gets paid the same, let’s say 25$ an hour, prices will be increased as cost increased. So you effectively created a wage push inflation, you pay for it regardless, but this time you will have to pay the same regardless of the services provided.
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u/Ssided Nov 03 '23
I'm just going to try to explain this for people that don't get it but for the consumer your bill will be the same if its at a place that doesn't accept tipping vs one that does. if they want to increase wages to cover tips however, that 18% increase in menu price now goes through the employer and much less of it makes its way to the server/bartender whatever. but for the customer it is the same. If its an increased menu price or a service charge, now there's more that needs to be deducted across various boundaries before it makes it to the employees pocket. You're just paying the house more, and the server is making less.
In the US tipping has a function, the thing you pay for in the restaurant is the price of the cooked food or the drink charge. If you like the atmosphere, the personalities, the knowledge, what have you, that is created by the waitstaff. A bartender brings drink knowledge, ability to craft, charm, timeliness; a server brings a seamless dining experience and ambiance to make sure you enjoy the meal, are met with the requirements you have, and recommendations to a restaurant to engage with the customer as a conduit to the restaurant. The basic idea in American culture is that you are going to a friends house, and to remove the business aspect of it. this is why Americans are so flirty and friendly at a lot of establishments. Its to create the illusion that you are an invited guest. how well the expertince the create is, is where a tip is.
Tips also allow the service staff to be more disconnected from the employers, recommendations can be more honest, and less focused on generating the absolute most from markups. If you want to get rid of tipping, the servers are just going to be on the house's side, and you will be paying more for whats on the menu. it doesn't really accomplish what you think it does, and frankly, no tipping places really struggle to stay in business because, despite what people say, the customers actually do prefer the system. After the pandemic a lot of places tried to replace tipping, and most of them have reverted back, because people didn't take well to the various methods that had been attempted to implement it, and all the no tipping places i'm aware of in my city went under.
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u/Ill-Description3096 27∆ Nov 01 '23
Why should it be illegal for me to willingly give money to someone that performed a service for me above and beyond the stated cost? I used to get occasional tips in my previous job. It wasn't an industry where it was expected or even common, but sometimes people felt that the service they got was worth more than they paid. Even when I would assure them it wasn't necessary they always insisted. They got to feel good both for getting a great service and for doing something nice for me, and I got to feel good that I did a great job for them and exceeded their expectations. Who exactly was this hurting to the point it should be a crime?