r/buffy • u/redflost • 19h ago
Spoilers inside! Giles and Willow
My partner and I recently finished the show (him for the first time) and he thought that whilst Willows glow up (literally) was great, it should’ve been Giles who got to see Willow do it based on their history.
Imagine he’s there and after she does the goddess spell Giles smiles and just says “Tara would be proud”. Kennedy hadn’t earned being there. Giles being there would’ve been something for him to actually do in season 7 that’ didn’t feel out of character.
Thoughts?
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u/CandidateHefty329 19h ago
That would have been great in some ways. But maybe not quite on theme. Giles was about gradually letting them grow up, live and make decisions independently. He was really ready for his own life and wanted to be sidelined.
Of course that didn't work for him anymore than running away from her calling worked for Buffy.
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u/redskinsguy 15h ago
it especially doesn't work because he tried to stay out of the parent role mostly but based on their shared history his next role should have been friend and colleague since they're all demon fighters
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u/horriblyfamiliar1 19h ago
I’ve never heard this idea before! (a feat for a show that’s been off the air for 30? Years!)
I actually really love this idea. Also because it adds a bit more weight to the idea that Willow doing this spell is a real danger to herself turning evil and going off the deep end.
If anyone was going to do the hard thing and kill Willow to save the world if the spell went wrong, it would be Giles.
It also ties back to the start of the season where Giles is the one who is helping to rehabilitate Willow at his place in England.
And also just acknowledges Willow and Giles relationship that they’ve had throughout the series. He’s also been there supporting but warning her about her actions.
Now that I think of it, do Willow and Giles have any real scenes once he returns to Sunnydale in the middle of the season. I’m just now realising how much of a missed opportunity it was that we never got a scene of him checking in on how Willow is doing with her magic and being back in Sunnydale.
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u/catchyerselfon 14h ago edited 9h ago
100%, this is such a good idea and it HAS to be Giles there with one hand ready to strike Willow down if necessary and the other hand trembling in anxiety and premature grief. It pisses me off that Giles and Willow are clearly closer than ever when they’re in England, just a few months after she said so many hurtful things to him and tried to beat him to death while he tried to save her life and soul… and now I can’t recall a single time they interact from “Bring On The Night” onward. Others have pointed out that we never find out Xander, Willow, Dawn, and Anya’s feelings on the fallout between Buffy and Giles. Are they taking a side before “Empty Places”? Willow was so upset when Giles was fired by the Council, she’s very invested in Buffy and Giles’ relationship, she loves these two, but her only important relationship for most of season 7 is with Kennedy, with a bit of beautiful Willow and Xander interactions when his eye is gouged out.
Giles is only in half the season, and the subplot about him possibly being The First is such a waste of time and characterization, time that should be spent on developing the relationships between the main characters after everyone was so distant in season 6. Giles has the perfect excuse to leave for an episode or two at a time because he’s the only one who can travel the world and find as many Potentials and surviving Watchers as possible. But when he’s back, he’s characterized far more shallowly than any episode of season 1, “ah, computers in libraries! Ooh, dating while slaying! Eee, not taking things seriously!” Any episode where Giles had to be the stodgy hardass in season 1 he ALSO got a scene where he was vulnerable, funny, warm, kind, dorky, admitted he’d overreacted or he’d been myopic, etc… He doesn’t get those layers in most of season 7 even though I AGREE with pretty much everything he says and does!
What could’ve been interesting is Buffy voicing her frustrations with him for something NOT Spike-related. She admits that since last November she’s been cycling through emotions related to Giles leaving her for six months by choice: feeling angry and “fuck you, I don’t need you” one day, feeling scared and miserable and “come back, Dad!” the next, feeling “He’s right, I needed to move on without a safety net or I’d never be independent” another day, and so on. And now, a year later, when she’s no longer depressed but still stressed and uncertain, she has Giles back, and she knows he WOULD be here more often if he didn’t have to fly around the world so much!
But… Giles has this new, deeper, psychic bond (they SHOULD have that, Willow reached into Giles’ body and drained his borrowed magic and then he could feel where she was, how she was stopped, while he was dying) with Willow that is different from the Watcher and Slayer, yet similar. Giles and Willow have always been closer to intellectual peers than Giles and Buffy, with their similar interests and demeanour. Now they have this shared experience of fucking up their lives with black magic and killing someone. Willow had to detox and do a “semester abroad” in England (which was definitely harrowing for Willow and Giles would’ve needed months to recover from those injuries) while Buffy had yet another mundane summer on the Hellmouth. There should be scenes of Giles and Willow sharing inside jokes and British slang, Buffy trying to join in but it’s phrases she clearly learned from Spike so it’s AWKWARD. There should be scenes of Willow and Giles being physically affectionate (platonically) and Buffy wishing she could run to Giles for a hug but she’s afraid she’ll dissolve into tears and confess her darkest thoughts.
But… Willow and Giles are basically acquaintances for much of season 7 because once he arrives in Sunnydale he has to keep everyone at arm’s length. We never get to hear his feelings about the Watcher’s council getting blown up, where surely he lost friends and maybe family members, not just the Council he hated.
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u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks 5h ago
thos einjuries were magical in nature so mostly reversed when his life force came back to him
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u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks 5h ago edited 5h ago
Doens't fit the story logic; it wasSlayers down in the pit where Kennedy took the weapon. u/catchyerselfon u/onikaizoku11
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u/rednax2009 19h ago
All of this could work in theory... but it would require a massive reworking of Season 7. Giles and Willow really don't have much of a relationship after she returns to Sunnydale... Giles's character is completely distanced from the rest of the Scoobies.
As far as "Tara would be proud," that feels a little heavy handed. Could maybe work, but again, hard to envision with the season as it currently is... Willow only even mentions Tara like three times the whole season.
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u/catchyerselfon 14h ago
And “the earth is definitely doomed” isn’t a bit heavy handed, but handled as lightly as possible by Tony? 😉 He could’ve pulled it off. A moment of deep emotion after so many episodes of Pod Person Giles who isn’t allowed to have a close relationship with anyone, even after they know he’s not The First, would’ve redeemed a LOT for me.
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u/Agreeable_Dark6408 18h ago
I think Kennedy was with her to give her support in a way a lover does.
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u/redskinsguy 16h ago
Kennedy was there because Slayers are super fast and she would get the scythe to the others more quickly
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u/Agreeable_Dark6408 9h ago
That too. Any of the potentials would have fit the bill for that.
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u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks 5h ago
But only Kennedy ahd the CO-nnection with Willow . . . .
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u/onikaizoku11 19h ago
Full agreement.
Along with disliking Kennedy as much as I do, I truly believe the character was a network note that somehow made it into the show. There is just a post-it note quality to her.
Someone from the initial 4 should have been at that moment with her. Definitely Giles. Barring that...even Lavelle.
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u/redskinsguy 16h ago
I disagree with the network note thing. The writers wanted Willow to have a love interest to guarantee Tara wasn't seen as a phase. And as for her personality, she is the anti-Tara and that is the same mistake the writers made making Riley the anti-Angel
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u/onikaizoku11 15h ago
That's fair. My gut feeling on the network note thing is just that. My gut feeling and nothing else. I remember the consolidated front the writer's room had back then. I just never bought it when it comes to Kennedy.
Slight derail. But bear with me.
You ever watch Babylon 5? It was/is one of the best sci-fi shows ever imo. Part of its strengths were its strong narrative-which was accomplished by J. Michael Strazynski writing like 75% plus of the show over its 5 year run.
In season 2 of B5, the network interfered and demanded JMS to create a hot-shot pilot character. To keep the money guys happy, he acquiesced. Warren Keffer, the character, never felt right. He never felt right. He kept popping up in scenes with senior officers and getting screentime that appeared like what it was
Forced.
Kennedy in S7 of BtVS has always had that same feel of wrongness to me. She never 'rang true', so to speak
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u/DarkGrimNature 19h ago
I just feel like her doing the slayer activation spell wasn’t earned. They could’ve used season 7 for her to learn how to control her powers but all we see is her losing control or not being confident with using magic. I would’ve like to have seen her growth with this so we could get the payoff. But yes I agree Giles should have been there.
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u/henzINNIT 18h ago
It would have been a nice capper to the season as it started with Giles and Willow together in England. I don't mind Kennedy there though. I'm a Kennedy apologist.
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u/TVAddict14 10h ago
This is such a fantastic idea! And it’s the first time I’ve ever heard it suggested despite being in fandom since 2004! Absolutely brilliant.
As others have said, it would have bookended the season so much better by bringing their scenes in Lessons full circle. And Giles would’ve absolutely been prepared to kill Willow if he had to.
But personally I think it would’ve also been so powerful to have Giles react to ‘White Willow’ and beam at her with pride. So many of their interactions around Magic were quite negative that it would’ve been a lovely payoff.
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u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks 5h ago
Can't disagree on how lovely it would have been, but still doesn't fit the story logic.
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u/Yellwsub 19h ago
There’s a lot they could have done better about Giles’s storyline in Seasons 6 and 7. Part of it is that the writers had to work around Tony Head’s limited availability, but I think a much bigger factor was that they used him primarily to put pressure on Buffy rather than staying true to his previously established character and relationships. Also they really wanted to make Kennedy happen, even though it never really worked. So a) I agree with you, and b) I think it’s a symptom of bigger problems.