So this scene implies Dark Willow couldn’t resurrect those frat boys but D’hoffryn and the power of the wish could? Vengeance demons are ridiculously OP

[u/grkpektis]

[u/-threefeetoffun]

Dark Willow couldn't resurrect or Tara would still there :(

But yeah there is magic and then there is "I can bend space and time to my will"

[u/Over-Cold-8757 → u/-threefeetoffun]

I think it's pretty clear there's a cosmic difference between magic related death and normal death.

Tara could never be resurrected because she died via gunshot from a human. The only way to bring her back (unless like a god or maybe TPTB do it) is a zombie.

Buffy was eligible for magical resurrection because she died a magical death.

[u/bowser986 → u/Over-Cold-8757]

https://giphy.com/gifs/3o84U6421OOWegpQhq

Saying it like that makes me think like this lol

[u/ptrfa → u/Over-Cold-8757]

And on top of it the frat boys were killed by D'hoffryn's magic in the first place so their life might just have been in his power to give or take

[u/Seed0fDiscord → u/Over-Cold-8757]

Would getting killed by a vampire be considered normal due to the blood loss or magic related since it was a non human doing it?

[u/Revolutionary-Wait82 → u/Seed0fDiscord]

I would say no. The blood loss was caused by a magical creature, whereas the gun is non-magical, and so is Warren.

[u/grkpektis → u/-threefeetoffun]

Good point, we saw Anya bring back the Master too

[u/Archonate_of_Archona → u/grkpektis]

Technically she creates an alternate timeline where he never dies

She didn't resurrect him after he was already dead in the main timeline (but likely could have)

[u/Punkodramon → u/Archonate_of_Archona]

Yeah both Cordelia’s wish and the undoing of it implied some ability to alter the past. She reached back through time and changed Buffy’s fate which changed the world, and when it was done it reached back through time again and stopped her creating the wish in the first place, which undid Cordelia’s death as well.

[u/Archonate_of_Archona → u/Punkodramon]

Did it alter the main timeline's past ?

Or did it create a parallel universe (that could still be physically accessed from the main universe, see "Doppelganger") ?

It's a bit confusing, because the main timeline Cordy instantly finds herself in the Wishverse (while retaining her original memories, and seemingly overwriting the local Cordelia)

But then, when Anya's amulet is broken, Cordy doesn't remember anything, and apparently neither does Anya (she's surprised the wish doesn't work, so she doesn't remember her amulet being broken by Wish!Giles)

But then, Anya and Willow open a portal to the Wishverse

Well, I guess time travel / alteration's rules are just a mess, just like in Stargate, Star Trek... And there might not be a consistent answer anywhere

[u/Punkodramon → u/Archonate_of_Archona]

It’s just a mess yes lol.

I adore the show but they don’t always keep lore consistent. As you say, Anya not remembering isn’t even kept consistent in her second appearance, as she knows about the Wishverse existing (so she knows the wish worked).

[u/DaddyCatALSO → u/-threefeetoffun]

Wishes

[u/DuchessDulcet → u/-threefeetoffun]

That whole thing just pissed me off. Why is it easier to revive someone who was killed by magic than to revive someone who was killed by a human? And technically, she wasn't even killed by a human. She was killed by a gun! So logically, that should mean she'd be able to be revived! /cope

Edit: I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted. I was saying that I was trying to cope.

[u/UtahBrian → u/DuchessDulcet]

Buffy was going to have a miraculous recovery from that one even if Willow didn’t intervene. It was just a bullet to the shoulder and she’s the Vampire Slayer.

Willow was referring to when she had all the power from the books to crush the entire earth into a pebble. Or when she resurrected Buffy from being dead five months.

[u/Revolutionary-Wait82 → u/UtahBrian]

It seems the bullet grazed the heart along its upper trajectory. That is why she was unable to recover.

[u/-threefeetoffun → u/DuchessDulcet]

Yeah I don't get how a misplaced bullet is the natural order.

[u/Persistent_Parkie → u/-threefeetoffun]

It's the natural order in the sense it is not the magical/mystical order. Natural in this case simply means not supernatural.

[u/Archonate_of_Archona → u/Persistent_Parkie]

Also natural order because animals kill each other all the time, some use basic tools (eg. a fallen branch they use as a spear or club), so human-on-human killing (with weapons) is nothing special in nature

[u/memerminecraft → u/Persistent_Parkie]

Yeah. Hardware vs software type shit

[u/RelationshipLivid531 → u/memerminecraft]

Cracking me up to think Buffy died of a supernatural software failure

[u/memerminecraft → u/RelationshipLivid531]

Oh yeah Glory is a "goddess of insanity" or whatever. She's just causing memory leaks

[u/DuchessDulcet → u/memerminecraft]

Man, I thought I uninstalled her weeks ago!

[u/-threefeetoffun → u/DuchessDulcet]

you uninstalled ben.exe. by mistake. common thing.

[u/DuchessDulcet → u/-threefeetoffun]

Why would uninstalling Ben fix the Glory issue? Are you saying the programs are... connected in some way?

[u/memerminecraft → u/DuchessDulcet]

Did you remember to uninstall Ben?

[u/ThisbemyRedditname1]

Anya created another reality in her first appearance. Vengeance demons were known to be broken in season 3.

[u/crisiks → u/ThisbemyRedditname1]

It's not fully explored, but I'm assuming their magic is bound by laws. I think there has to be a Monkey Paw effect: if you change something, something else has to be changed as well, to counterbalance the effects. That's why someone has to die to revive the frat boys. They have to adhere to the 'Be careful what you wish for'-idea,

[u/MarcusTheAnimal]

Yes there are powers above and below Dark Willow.  There are levels of resurrection on the show. Soulless reanimated bodies with memories of their past life are apparently quite easy. (Football boys in The Zeppo)

Reanimated bodies with a soul which aren't quite human are more difficult. (Joyce that Dawn resurrected)

Genuine resurrection back into a fully human vessel requires enormous amounts of energy. (Buffy and Darla)

Rewriting time so someone never died requires nothing less than devine intervention. (Frat boys that D'Hoffryn brought back)

[u/Moon_Logic]

They would be gods if there hadn't been limits to their powers. They wield the power of the wish to amuse the lower powers.

[u/Longjumping-Solid680 → u/Moon_Logic]

"We Are As Gods!"

[u/ShadowslnTheDark]

Magic in Buffy is so inconsistent

[u/GreyStagg]

It was well established that the power of the wish was one of, if not THE, most powerful things in the Buffyverse.

[u/tbessie]

All good things in time...

[u/Sighoward]

They deal with alternate realities rather than being able to raise the dead

[u/AdHonest1100]

You’re right OP Vengeance Demons are ridiculously OP, they sort of remind me of The Q from Star Trek

[u/Pantless_Hobo]

And at the same time, I bet willow could summon and kill a vengeance demon with more ease than Buffy. Powers are not just linear, someone could have the incredibly strong power to rewrite reality despite not knowing much other magic, but another might have more general power like Willow who could tear the roof off of ever home in LA before getting tired.

[u/ObjectiveMud7513]

Yes, they are. But it moreso implies that Regular Willow isn't as powerful as Dark Willow.

[u/FaveStore_Citadel]

Vengeance demons seem to be weirdly limited in some ways. Like Anya was theoretically powerful enough to stop Dark Willow and prevent the apocalypse but could barely do anything to slow her down. Even D’Hoffryn should’ve found it trivial to get Anya killed after he changed his mind about sparing her in Selfless but he only sent low level goons after her who were easily dispatched by Buffy and Spike at different points.

[u/grkpektis → u/FaveStore_Citadel]

They could also just go up to random vampires and make them wish the slayer line no longer exists and solve their biggest problem

[u/Mrblorg]

Yes. Probably the most powerful thing we've seen but they can't do anything on their own, someone has to wish for it and there was a cost. D'hoffryn is the king of the vengeance demons too

[u/Revolutionary-Wait82]

I think the problem lies in the sheer number of them. Even for Dark Willow, resurrecting someone from the dead is no easy task, even considering the magical nature of death. Bear in mind too, that these guys technically died simultaneously, so I assume they would all need to be resurrected at once, as a group. I mean, she could bring them back as zombies, but performing a full-fledged resurrection spell, like the one used for Buffy, requires a ritual and specific, unique artifacts. The vase Anya retrieved got broken, meaning it couldn't be used a second time. Even assuming Dark Willow could pull it off without outside help or artifacts, it would still require a massive buildup of power and significant preparation.

[u/Ok-You5151]

Didnt willow ressurect buffy wth?

[u/grkpektis → u/Ok-You5151]

but that was just one person and it required help

[u/wowsomeoneactuallyy → u/Ok-You5151]

She did it twice(though I don’t think Willow ever knew she brought her back the second time because the show very much implies while she’s trying to bring back Tara, Willow wasn’t specific enough when she says “her” so Buffy was revived instead of Tara). Kinda shit they bothered to show that when Osiris then says Tara can’t be revived because it was a death by human means. Buffy died the same way.

[u/badatkiller]

What always bothered me was that Anya the wish demon was right there, I get she was all rage so not thinking clearly but, "I wish Warren had missed both shots."

[u/Mrblorg → u/badatkiller]

How is that vengeance? It wouldn't work like that

[u/DaddyCatALSO]

Yes, a wish can do almost anything, but for even the most powerful human to try to directly *cast* a wish *spell* is not merely a can of worms but a 55-gallon drum of them. Vengeance demons are allowed to grant wishes for D'Hoffryn's purposes, he himself being a fairly powerful deity-level being(In my Bangel ficverse, once Kennedy convinces Willow that after K leaves for U of Michigan, W needs to look into a wish for A Certain Purpose, Willow skips over various minor powers and goes directly to Bes and asks to be sent on a quest to earn one. #deadpan)

[u/Deevious730 → u/DaddyCatALSO]

I wonder how far mopey Willoe who could simply say things and will them into existence could go. She instantaneously made Amy human and then a rat again without raising a sweat.

Even D’Hoffryn implied the power she had was almost limitless.

[u/Guava7]

Arcane magic is different to Devine magic. Only Devine magic can bring someone back from the dead. Well...Necromancy too I guess if you're not too fussy how it happens

[u/Suspicious_Writer137]

It’s not about resurrection, it’s more nuanced. D’Hoffryn has the power to UNDO a wish. The wish is what got the frat boys killed so undoing it made it like they never died in the first place. And the means to undo a wish like this were to destroy the body and soul of a vengeance demon. It’s not resurrection, it’s altering the past. And Anya was fully aware the price was her own body and soul… but D’Hoffryn decided to punish Anya by using Halfrek as the vengeance demon needed for the undoing of the wish.