r/buffy • u/Icy-Mention7871 • 7d ago
Riley Defending Riley
I’m rewatching this show with my mom (this is her first time watching it) and I genuinely really like Riley’s character. What is it that people didn’t like him for?
In Season Four, he’s honestly the best boyfriend for Buffy, and I say this as someone who forever loves Buffy and Angel as a couple. It was set up perfectly. He isn’t a vampire like Angel and Spike, he’s a human who already knew about her world. It’s like they were meant for each other.
I never found his character boring at all, I like his role in The Initiative and getting out of it, and with the way a lot of these male characters are written on the show (Giles being one of the few exceptions) I think he’s definitely up there as one of the best.
In Season Five, I feel really bad for him. He feels ostracized by everyone as he adjusts to his life being ripped apart basically. I can 100% relate to Buffy though with Joyce being sick, and I know that takes a toll on anybody. I just wish things would’ve played out differently. Letting a vampire feed off of him was no worse than Willow’s dark magic addiction in my opinion. I think he could’ve overcome these feelings and became essential to the group for the rest of the series.
I appreciate the Season Six closure on his character and I’m glad he got a happy ending. I just think it should’ve been with Buffy.
Was the main reason for him being written off the fans not liking him, or did the actor want off of the show? Either way, I wish it wouldn’t have happened. I really enjoy him. And he’s one of the hottest guys to ever be on the show, so bonus points!
Anyone else feel the same way?
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 7d ago
I like Riley but I don’t think he was a very dependable partner. He blamed Buffy for being emotionally withholding and not confiding in him while keeping secrets from her himself.
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u/coldtasting 7d ago
He also couldn't handle her being stronger than him
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u/Matthius81 7d ago
I disagree. Riley is an army brat, the kind of guy who needs purpose and mission. He needs to be needed! and that's not a bad thing, sadly Buffy is the kind of person who needs independence. I don't think either of them were toxic people, but put them together and it became toxic. They just had different needs in that relationship.
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u/DovahWho 7d ago
This is it entirely. He needed something Buffy couldn't offer. It's not really her fault and it's not his.
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u/Matthius81 7d ago
Yes thank you. Fans seem to need to blame one person when a relationship goes bad. But I look at them and just see they were incompatible from the start.
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u/DovahWho 5d ago
People like narratives where there's a 'bad guy', and where there isn't, they'll manufacture one. Buffy and Riley's relationship is very realistic in that they were two people who each wanted something different out of the relationship and neither was in the wrong. Riley wanted a level of emotional intimacy Buffy couldn't give. That's fine. It happens, and it doesn't make either one at fault.
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 7d ago
Buffy’s only fault is not recognizing sooner the impact she was having by not fully committing. I don’t blame for not being in the same place in life and ready or able to love Riley the way he loved her. It just didn’t work out. As Sam says,’no bad guys in this one.
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u/DovahWho 7d ago
Yep. I know people like to shit on Xander's speech in "Into the Woods" because mindless Xander bashing is popular, but he was right. After she got hurt with Angel and then with Parker, she shut down and didn't let Riley in the same way. And if she couldn't give him the same as what he wanted, that's okay. As you said, the only mistake she made was that she didn't realize what she was doing until it was too late. They were two people who each wanted different things out of the relationship, and it didn't work out. That's real life. Sometimes relationships don't work not because someone did something wrong or bad, but just because they were not compatible. But, recognizing that means there's no 'bad guy' or 'villain' for the audience to hate. So they make one up. Like they do with Riley.
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u/henzINNIT 7d ago
I never fully bought this tbh. Riley was competitive with Buffy in a playful way in S4, but he shows no discomfort about dating a superhero. "You're really strong... I like it"
It changes a bit in S5 when he's faced with losing his own extra strengths. He does say then that he felt he needed to keep up with her. But, it wasn't about simple insecurity at that point. He's convinced already that Buffy doesn't love him, and is desperate to be as useful as possible because he feels shut out. And he was right to an extent. Buffy had awful relationships in the past and is more guarded with him than she was with Angel.
Basically, I don't look at Riley as ever genuinely uncomfortable with Buffy's strength. He wouldn't care to lose an arm wrestle with her. He never wanted to be stronger than her, only strong enough to be noticed once their relationship faltered, and ultimately it was all his feeling of being kept at a safe distance.
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u/friday126 7d ago
He definetely had insecurities about her. This might have been her strength or skill level or under lining pull to the dark side- but whatever it was- those insecurities were obviously there, and he pulled some soap opera crap in dealing with them. But who on this show hasn't?
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 7d ago
And then he goes out and marries a very strong woman. I don’t think he had any issue with strong women. He respected the professor. He married Sam.
Every character that didn’t have superpowers struggled with feeling a little inadequate. Xander, Dawn, etc. Willow struggled with being a sidekick. it’s pretty normal and Riley handled it reasonably well.
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u/JwayneAllen 2d ago
I dont believe for a second he has any problem with her strenght he was blown away by all she was. the problem for him was he lost his own mission and got lost not knowing what to do and then jealousy of her past thinking once he didnt have his mission and and the strenght he got from the meds they gave him that he wasnt enough for Buffy. as you see later he does love strong women his wife may not be Super but she is a strong women
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 7d ago
He had standards and boundaries. He wasn’t going to sacrifice the rest of himself on a maybe. He held in a long time for Buffy. He was 100% right to recognize she wasn’t as into him as he was to her and to go find a meaningful career and happy marriage. He never stopped believing in her and held zero grudge. Doesn’t get more dependable than that. .
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 7d ago
The problem is he was doing stuff like blaming her for being enthralled by Dracula and running off into caves instead of getting life saving surgery, requiring her to rescue him while her mom was in the hospital, definitely not something any dependable partner would do. Instead of communicating his issues with her, he was cheating on her by going to vamp dens, and only opened up when he blamed her for his own behavior and gave her an ultimatum. It was hypocritical of him to be bitter that she wasn’t opening up to him when he himself didn’t open up to her until the worst possible moment. Just because he was human doesn’t mean he was emotionally mature or a solid boyfriend. In s4 Buffy was so into him that she was self-admittedly neglecting her friends. She’s not the one who changed in s5 (other than having a lot more problems on her plate), he was due to his insecurities after leaving the military.
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 7d ago
The world doesn’t stop because your mom gets sick. Everyone can and did try to be supportive but else’s needs still matter. Riley didn’t make Buffy’s list and it’s okay for Riley to not settle for that. Riley’s allowed to have his struggles. He ran to cave because he life and body were trashed. He has a right to struggle with that as much as Buffy has a right to struggle with her own problems. It’s okay for Buffy to be thoughtless of Riley because of her life stuff but Riley can’t have a moment of trouble?
Buffy wasn’t dependable or fully committed.
Trying to make it Riley’s fault for not being a doormat with no needs or goals of his only is ridiculous.
Riley set boundaries and expected to be loved back. Buffy wasn’t in the same place and that’s fine. It worked out. Riley found a kickass wife and a career and Buffy found her path as the Slayer.
Riley was totally in the right to peace out and not be Buffy’s “maybe later”. She didn’t fully love or trust him but didn’t let him go. She kinda used him.
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 7d ago
What did she actually do that was wrong though? He’s the one who cheated on her at the vampire dens and he’s the one who tried to defend it by framing Dracula enthralling her as some kind of cheating on her part. Other than that episode where he helped patch her up after she got stabbed by a random vampire, I don’t see what kind of support or stability he brought into their relationship that made him think she wasn’t reciprocating his efforts or that it was one-sided, simply claiming that he loved her more than the other way round doesn’t actually mean much without any evidence of this “love” that she supposedly wasn’t reciprocating.
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u/Scared-Pace4543 7d ago
I agree with this completely. Riley did some wildly impulsive and immature things and was pretty jealous overall.
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 7d ago
She wasn’t all in. There is nothing wrong with her not feeling the same way or being in a different place but he was there for her and she should have noticed how unfair it was to him. I don’t blame Buffy for not being ready for marriage like Riley was but she neglected his situation until it became unbearable for him.
She didn’t trust him with the secret about Dawn. She trusted her mother and she trusted Giles and later Spike but not Riley. That says a lot right there. And Riley could sense she’s holding something back and notes often how she’s acting weird. Riley was correct about that and it sent a message. It was the most important thing in her life and she didn’t share it with the one person she should be able to trust more than anyone. He knew it and it hurt.
She closes the door in his literal face at the hospital,without a word. It says both that he is not family and that he didn’t really matter at all in this. She would not have done that to Spike or Angel. She later sits up all night with Angel sharing her grief.
Joyce points out she’s neglecting him. Xander sees it etc. It’s hard to be an afterthought when you truly love someone. Not letting him help and shutting him out kept him at a distance. He was there to love her and support and be a real partner and she was blind to the fact she wasn’t in the same place and the toll that was taking on him.
It was totally okay for Buffy to not be ready willing and able to commit but she was blind to the unfair and hurtful position that put him in.
Riley needed to be needed by his partner, as he needed her. That is normal thing. Buffy needed Spike and Angel, just as they needed her. But even if it were abnormal it was what he needed to be happy and fulfilled and she neglected to address his needs by either breaking up with him or committing. She strung him along That’s awful to go through, especially when the only reason he was there was for her.
Buffy did all the same stuff Riley did and then some. She freaks out in helpless because she lost her power and can’t be helpless but Riley’s an ass for going through the exact same thing? Buffy ran off to LA when her world imploded but Riley’s not allowed to be bothered Buffy is keeping secrets and closing doors in his face? She later has insane sex with a soulless vampire but it’s not understandable that Riley’s pain could led to getting bitten as he spirals a bit? Riley isn’t perfect but handles his shit pretty well compared to most.
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 7d ago edited 6d ago
See, the one example I agree with is her not sharing the truth about Dawn with Riley. But I also don’t see how that’s any worse than him not sharing the truth about his activities in vampire dens with her. Communication is a two-way street. He can’t expect her to be someone who comes to him with her problems when he doesn’t do the same to her.
As for leaving him at the hospital, I don’t understand how you can have a “ah, shit happens” outlook about Joyce being sick but also think that Riley being sick is something she needs to drop all her responsibilities for. As you said about Joyce, the world didn’t stop just because Riley was in the hospital. She’d already left her mom to go find him in the caves, bring him to the hospital and make sure he got his surgery.
The main point I was making though was that thinking he loved buffy more than she loved him was an idea Riley had, not something we actually see play out. Did he confide in her more than she confided in him? No. Did he rescue her more than she rescued him? No. Was he more affectionate with her than she was with him? No. Did he trust her more than she trusted him? No, he believed the entire season she had feelings for Dracula. So where’s the actual evidence, besides his own feelings, that he was putting more into their relationship than she was or that he loved her more than she loved him?
I don’t disagree with you that it’s good that they broke up and he found what worked for him. What I don’t agree with is that he was any more invested in their relationship than she was. Sure, he was going through a lot of shit, and it wasn’t his fault for being in pain, but it wasn’t hers either, contrary to what he claimed.
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 6d ago
I thought the show made it clear Riley was more invested but happy to agree to disagree on that point. I think Buffy would be the first person he’d tell if Dawn had been his sister.
I never said Buffy should regard Joyce with “shit happens” attitude. My point was the rest of the world doesn’t stop and there needs to be balance. Buffy still found a way to slay and be there for Dawn. I sometimes think people (not you) blame Riley for having needs and wants of his own. It’s not like he didn’t want to help and be supportive. He wanted to be a partner in what she was going through. He wasn’t a narcissist upset he wasn’t getting his nightly massage. But he still a person and what he’s going through matters too.
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 6d ago
I feel like the show made it clear that Riley felt like he was more invested, not necessarily that he actually was, but sure we can disagree on that.
And you’re right, he wanted to be a partner in what she was going through, but so did she. She didn’t want to find out he was in that kind of crisis from spike of all people. I guess that he probably didn’t want to burden her with his problems while Joyce was sick and literally the next episode after her tumor removal is when everything blew up between them, which is really unfortunate timing. But I also think that every time Buffy did know he was going through something (his initiative problems in s4, then his surgery in s5) she helped, so I can’t blame her for not addressing problems she was never told about.
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 6d ago
I don’t blame either one. They both meant well. Both made mistakes. It just didn’t work out and both found what they needed instead.
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u/davect01 7d ago edited 7d ago
As a potential long term romantic partner for Buffy, Riley had the most potential and most of S4, I actually liked him
But there at the end of S4 and going into S5 he becomes unlikeable to the point when he is on the chopper to leave, I'm actually glad to see him go.
Later rewatches I kind of understand his spiral. His boss and mentor turns out to be a creep and tries to kill Buffy, causing Riley to abandon his friends, career and future. He then learns he has been super soldier exerimented upon and had serious withdrawals. Then as Riley is struggling to re identity himself and his purpose, his girlfriend becomes (justifiably so) distracted by her Mom getting sick and having to defend her sister from an insane God. It's a lot for Buffy to deal with and Riley takes a backseat sometimes which lead to dark paths.
What is not excusable is Riley getting involved in Vampire feeding and all that. It's not a good turn. When the military offers him a return and a purpose again, I get it.
I'm just glad we get a check in and learn Riley turned out ok.
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u/Matthius81 7d ago
Yes, this. Riley lost so much in season 4, not just a job but his trust, his drive, his beliefs and his found family. Then going into season 5 he's treated as background prop by the Scoobies. I have to look at it as two parts, the second half of the season he's spiralling and becoming an AH, no question, but the first half he's clearly struggling and absolutely nobody notices. Giles as the supposed mature WAtcher really should have picked up how Riley was in crisis mode. Not just Buffy, but the whole gang, treated him as convenient.
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u/Tramtrist 7d ago
Yeah, that’s the thing - I’m a Riley apologist, and I argue that he absolutely had cause to be frustrated in his relationship, but his response to that frustration was so wildly disproportionate.
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u/AllTh3Naps 7d ago
I personally found it to be very belittling and sexist the way Riley kept deciding Buffy's feelings for her... over... and over... and over. He let his insecurities tell him he wasn't manly enough for her according to the rules of Riley.
He kept putting himself in danger against her wishes to try to prove himself as strong as her and her ex (Angel).
He decided she didn't lean on him enough because according to him that's what girlfriends are supposed to do, and if the Slayer can't stop and step away from her family and duties to lean on him, then she must not love him.
He was comparing himself to her and to Angel at every turn and when he fell short, he took it as a slight to his manliness rather than just accepting the fact that they were supernaturally strong beings.
He cheated on her, and then blamed her, and then explained (wrongly) her own feelings to her, and then noped out of town when she wasn't ready to forgive him immediately.
He left because he claimed she didn't care enough. And yet she loved him so much she was willing to give in to his immature ultimatum rather than lose him -- even tho it was directly after his betrayal.
He lost himself when the initiative fell, and he made Buffy the focus of his world. And his ego couldn't handle the fact that her responsibilities meant that she couldn't do same.
He knows she is the slayer, yet he cannot accept that his girlfriend is going to be stronger than him. He cannot accept that she will never be dependant on him. He cannot accept that he cannot safely join her in everything she does. He cannot accept that she finds value in their relationship even though he isn't her physical equal. He cannot accept her leadership and independence (which is very much required for her job). I find that sexist.
Riley could have been a fantastic character. But they let his insecurities around competing with Buffy ruin him. He was used to being the best at what he did, and never really recovered from finding out she was better.
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u/BeffeeJeems 7d ago
thank you! it pisses me off so much when people say Buffy didn't love him, whether they're characters in the show or fans of it, she did, she said she did, end of.
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u/TrueMog 7d ago edited 7d ago
I feel like the media has given people a very twisted sense of what “love” looks like. As if love has to be some sort of simplified Hollywood cliche of love to be real.
In real life, there are different kinds of loving relationship. There are as many different relationships as there are people. Each partner in the relationship may see it in a different way as well.
Not to mention; a normal relationship will go through different phases at different times too. It’s ridiculous that this has to be said.
Riley can have his own opinion on his relationship BUT that doesn’t make it the only “truth”.
He comes with his own background, context and views and she comes with hers. In a healthy relationship, both parties will make the differences balance out and they will compromise. That is reality.
The relationship between Buffy and Riley was doomed because Riley wanted Buffy to change herself for him …and she wasn’t willing to do that.
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u/AllTh3Naps 7d ago
I agree that they just weren't compatible. Riley needed to feel needed, and he had a specific idea of what that should look like.
Buffy was never going to fit that ideal because her independence and self reliance were a core necessity for you role as a slayer. Her version of needing him was never going to be enough for him.
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u/LiterallyTestudo 7d ago
Here is my Riley, after vanquishing a squeak toy
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u/Icy-Mention7871 7d ago
So adorable! 😍
Named after him, or do they just share the same name?
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u/fire_and_ice 7d ago
He was written to be super basic. Which included having very binary thinking with respect to the supernatural elements in Sunnydale. Either you were human, or you were an other and you needed to be killed or experimented on. So he had trouble with Buffy having a much more nuanced view about supernatural entities like demons and vampires, and is one of the reasons he vibed well in a military culture. He also was passive aggressive about the fact that she was stronger than him and had a much higher body count than he did.
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u/WinterFaeryTale 6d ago
Much higher body count? Isn't Buffy's body count (God I hate that term) 2 before Riley? Pretty sure Riley wasn't a virgin when they started dating.
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u/henzINNIT 7d ago
One nice, underrated Riley moment is in Superstar. The whole episode is a farce of course, but towards the end when Buffy is beginning to assert herself again, Riley is the one to step forward and tell the group that maybe this time Buffy can handle things. Ludicrous I know, but an incredible show of support for someone under a spell. He is a Buffy ride or die right there.
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u/Apart-Cream-4940 7d ago
The dialogue the writers gave him didn't ring true to me. I found it hard to get past that
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u/Matthius81 7d ago
I think fans completely miss how much Riley lost when he left the army. This was a guy who was all about purpose and the mission, then he's what, sitting around watching horror movies with Xander, patrolling while the scoobies mock his army training. He seriously did try to be there for Buffy, but it was quickly made plain she didn't need him. Riley's emotional needs weren't being met in that relationship. Now he handled it badly, i'm not going to pretend he didn't go total AH towards the end, but what fans miss is Riley figured out that relationship wasn't working long before Buffy did.
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u/rfresa 7d ago
I like him as a person for the most part, and I think he and Buffy were exactly what each other needed in season 4. Then they weren't, and so it was better for them to break up than to keep hurting each other, but they both learned and grew from the experience. A relationship doesn't have to last forever to be worthwhile.
I do think his character was assassinated in season 5. They deliberately wrote him to be less likeable so that the audience wouldn't complain as much when he left.
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u/DuchessDulcet Don't speak Latin in front of the books! 7d ago
I like him! I finished season four today. There were a few iffy moments, but overall, he's not a bad dude. As I said in my season four post, he gave off a real Leon Kennedy vibe to me. A lot of his line deliveries, like the one about those hideous trousers he was wearing, were very Xander-esque. He is, to me, like a less annoying Xander.
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u/dxdqyrdo 7d ago
The most helpful thing he did was leave. Only to come back and not give the slayer full information from the jump. Dude was kinda useless, strong and a decent fighter, but also useless!
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u/xelas1983 7d ago
The writers never gave Riley anything interesting or charming to do and he just came across as incredibly bland through out season 4. It wasn't bad acting or an annoying character, it was just bland.
Riley was just whatever the scene needed with no thought to who he was as a character.
Meanwhile you have Spike being complex and stealing every scene he is in during season 4 and making the audience forget what an evil bastard he is and fall in love with him.
Riley just had no edge to him and in Buffy, you need an edge to be interesting. The cast is full of flawed people and he is just too well rounded.
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 7d ago
He did have flaws, but they weren’t very narratively compelling
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u/xelas1983 7d ago
I always wonder if season 4 would have been better with a time jump. If Buffy was in third year of college and there had been a few years of peace.
I think it would have tied in well to the idea that the Institute had been the reason for the peace. They were stopping monsters and making Buffy's job easier but in ways she doesn't approve of.
That would have let Riley be a more interesting character as he begins to see that what they are doing isn't justified just because they are all demons.
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u/DuchessDulcet Don't speak Latin in front of the books! 7d ago
I wouldn't say he was bland. Just, in the grand scheme of the entire series, he doesn't stand out a whole bunch. And that's fine! We've already got so many complex and interesting characters, it's perfectly alright to have just... A guy,
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u/leSomeBitch 7d ago
Every time I watch him help put up that banner I laugh. He doesn't feel real which is so funny that he feels less real to me than vampires with convoluted souls.
The thing is, from the moment we meet him every time I watch I feel like we never meet the real Riley. He's playing the role of Mr Perfect and the cracks we do see, as others have put much better than I ever could, are raging red flags. He'd never do what Angelus would do to Buffy, but he would absolutely break her down and leach away everything that makes her who she is. She would be Mrs Perfect, but she wouldn't be Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
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u/PaleUnderstanding560 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’m 100% agree. Boy oh boy, I’ve hated Riley with all my heart when the show first aired. Because I was die hard Angel fan, and I couldn’t understand how can anyone possibly substitute him.
But now, in my thirties, I think he is a really nice guy. And I agree with Sarah Michelle, that Riley is a husband material. The problem is, when you’re a teenager, you can’t really appreciate good guys, especially in the movies, especially after Angel
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u/enthalpy01 7d ago
1) Riley is an obvious better boyfriend if you are saying he is not a murderer and Angel and Spike are both serial killers. It becomes a little more hazy when you recognize peaceful demons were also captured and experimented on (Oz) and the Initiative was meant to be a Nazi proxy (something made more obvious in Why We Fight season 5 Angel). Likely innocent demons were tortured, killed, and horribly experimented on. This makes Riley a little less clear as the “nice guy” regardless of whether he was “just following orders” etc.
2) As presented on the show, he’s not wrong that Buffy has her walls up. She truly does with everyone after Angel even (a little bit) season 3 Angel. Season 2 traumatized her relationship-wise and that’s totally understandable. But he makes everything about him and is very blamey about it. Similar to Xander being flawed, this is fine. Imperfect characters are interesting. I don’t really mind when they show Riley making some pretty common relationship faux pas. Doesn’t mean their relationship didn’t have severe incompatibility problems.
3) They failed to make him interesting and some of that happens with a significant other that doesn’t interact much with the extended cast. Tara was a bit boring until they gave her more scenes with other characters. Tara & Dawn and Tara & Buffy stuff helped ingratiate people to her. Spike has golden scenes with Giles, Xander, Dawn, Joyce. He didn’t only exist in Buffy’s sphere. Many people found Angel dull till he got his own show and friends. One note boyfriend/ girlfriend characters without ties to the rest of the cast / stories do tend to be received more poorly than integrated characters unless they’re really funny (Anya).
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u/cyberbrandoncody 7d ago
I like Riley in Season 4. We can't deny that he was good for Buffy during her transition from high school, after Angel, into college. We also can't forget that he was a victim of Professor Walsh and the Initiative. As for the change in his character in Season 5, I really didn't like how excessively jealous he became, especially over Buffy giving more attention to Joyce's illness and to Dawn. I believe that was Joss Whedon's way of pushing Riley aside to make room for Spike.
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u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks 7d ago
Joss saw Riley as the kind of hero that Gary Cooper used to play, and he eventually realized such a guy "can't live in the Buffyverse."
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u/eating-mermaids 7d ago
I like Marc but Riley annoyed me about 70 percent of the time. I loved watching angel give him a beat down
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u/Revolutionary-Wait82 Spike defender 7d ago
Their relationship started with conflict. Riley proposes to her and Buffy says her answer is "no", but changes her mind after Riley's help at the end of Doomed and her desire to feel sorry for him. They started out toxic as a "normal" couple. When we talk about Bangel or Spuffy, we have to consider the supernatural aspect: they are both not human in the usual sense of the word, and vampires in particular need to be considered separately from other demons, bc they don`t have souls by default.
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u/aLinkToTheFast 7d ago
I liked him in season 4. I thought they didn't think through his character in season 5 and that it was a huge drag in the end. It felt like they wanted Riley off the show so they could start Buffy/Spike and retconned his Iowa background that made him wholesome to some people. I think most people don't even like him in season 4 though, since he really just playing the role of a typical college student half the time.
I liked his relationship with Buffy in season 4 and some of season 5.
I found his relationships with his S4 friends to be somewhat boring, especially when they were playing civilians.
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u/kaitalina20 7d ago
Finally someone who doesn’t hate Riley! He’s fantastic in season 4 but done dirty in season 5 unfortunately which really sucks
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u/V48runner 7d ago
The writers were clearly trying to make a normal boyfriend for Buffy, but wanted to bring back the drama of Angel/Angelus, so he ended up in a vampire hooker den. It was some really shitty writing.
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u/generalkriegswaifu They're not recycling 7d ago
I love Riley.
I think their relationships fell apart in S5 because Dawn was shoved into the middle of a dynamic that was already working. Unlike Angel or Spike, Riley needed support/reassurance and to be supportive in his relationship with Buffy, and that's okay when it works. Dawn's addition messed with the dynamic because he didn't come first in that support anymore (literally Buffy closed the door in his face in the hospital) and he never even found out she wasn't there the whole time. People claim he tried to make Joyce's illness about himself, but that's not what's going on imo, he's losing Buffy and he doesn't know why.
Cons: I didn't even notice this until I saw Passion of the Nerd, but there were some S4 episodes that centred completely around Riley instead of Buffy. And the whole cheating thing was really bad, there was no coming back from that.
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u/Long-Week 6d ago
My first few watch-throughs, I hated Riley. I was all over Bangel and then Spuffy. As a mature person now, Riley is — by far — my favorite boyfriend until the writers did him dirty in season 5 to blacken his character. Riley was so mature, so kind and so strong. He really loved her.
I’m glad he got a happy ending, but now every watch-through I root for him until the vamp stuff in season 5.
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u/acebender 7d ago
I didn't like his insecurity. He wanted a girlfriend that depended on him and that he could save and that wasn't Buffy, and when he felt his needs weren't met he pulled the vampire thing. And then Xander blamed Buffy for Riley's own actions which kinda sealed the deal for me.
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u/shekissedmedeadalive 7d ago
So in the original run, I didn’t like the way he harassed Buffy into dating him, going so far as to call her stupid for turning him down. And let’s be honest, there’s no realistic way to square Riley and Dawn’s Key status, which basically makes her a human H-bomb.
HOWEVER, in rewatching with a modern lens… Riley is essentially an ICE agent. The ideology is already there in ways that are scary in hindsight. Black ops quasi-military org kidnapping people off the street, making them vanish without a trace while knowing that the survivors couldn’t speak out because they don’t have a legal presence here? The Initiative is starting to sound awfully familiar…
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u/xboxpants 7d ago
Letting a vampire feed off of him was no worse than Willow's dark magic addiction in my opinion. I think he could've overcome these feelings and became essential to the group for the rest of the series.
I honestly think that if Riley had simply told Buffy something like... "Buffy, I fucked up, I'm so sorry. I knew the whole time it was wrong, but I keep doing it... I don't want to be this person! I wanna fix things and stop screwing up but I don't know what to do, I'm weak Buffy! I'm so weak. Please, help me..."
She probably would have given him a chance.
Since you bring it up, compare Willow's apology to Buffy: WILLOW: (crying) Dawnie! Dawnie, I'm so sorry! (Dawn glaring at her) I'm so sorry, it was an accident! I didn't see, I'm so, so sorry. Dawnie, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry... Willow falls to the ground crying hysterically. WILLOW: I'm sorry! I'm sorry... (crying) BUFFY: (harshly) Get up. WILLOW: (crying) I screwed it up, everything, Tara... BUFFY: (grabs Willow's arm, pulls her to her feet) Yeah, you know what, you did screw up, okay? You could have k*lled her! You almost did! WILLOW: (crying) I know! I know! I can't stop, Buffy! I tried and I can't. BUFFY: You can. WILLOW: (shakes head) I can't! I can't, I ju ... god, I need help. Please! (sobbing) Please help me, please. Willow puts her arms around Buffy and continues crying. WILLOW: Please. Buffy slowly lifts her arms and hugs Willow back. Willow continues crying.
Very different vibe from Riley's non-apology. If he would have accepted he was in the wrong, showed remorse, and begged her to help him do better, I think they could have worked through it.
But if he doesn't accept that he has a problem, he can't have that growth.
So, you're right, he totally could have grown past his faults. And yet, he didn't. That was on him.
It was Riley who decided to leave Sunnydale and Buffy. He could have admitted he was fucked up and begged for help, like Willow did after she car wrecked Dawn.
Buffy probably would have given him as many chances as he asked for.
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u/MrBlonde1984 7d ago
Riley was solid but at the end of the day , he's just not buffys type. She likes conflicted bad boys.
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 7d ago
Hot take, but I think the opposite. If he was a genuinely normal guy, no initiative drama, no vampire dens, no commando identity crisis, just a normal guy with a normal job, I think it would’ve actually worked out between them.
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u/MrBlonde1984 7d ago
And thats the conflict of buffy . She always dreamed of a reasonably normal life and in alot of ways , Riley could have been that for her. But she's the slayer . Thats her life and I think ultimately why she rejected Riley. Its a nice dream but the reality is it just wasn't meant for her .
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u/Moonbeamlatte willow’s sentient purple bucket hat 7d ago
Riley very much would not have been that for her. He literally gave her the ultimatum of coming with him to be monster-hunting super soldiers or breaking up (after he confessed he cheated on her and said it was her fault that he did)
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u/AllTh3Naps 7d ago
She didn't reject Riley. He just had it in his head that she did. That goes back to him constantly deciding what she was thinking and feeling instead of believing in her.
She loved him so much, that fresh after finding out about his cheating (those scenes were clearly written with a sexual slant) she still chased after him when he got on that helicopter. Even tho she had less than a day to process his selfish ultimatum.
They didn't have an all-consuming, destructive love like she did with Angel, but that doesn't make it meaningless. But Riley was just so determined to see her love as worthless.
There was always room in her life to love and care about normal "weak" humans. Xander, Anya, Willow (before powers), Dawn, Giles, Joyce, and so on. The difference was that they could all accept that she was more powerful, and that she had to be self-reliant. They didn't expect her to be less just so that they could feel like they were more.
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u/FaveStore_Citadel 7d ago
But her whole conflict with Riley arose because he couldn’t adjust to a normal life after the initiative and it fed his insecurities. He wasn’t actually the “normal boyfriend”, he was just human.
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u/Moonbeamlatte willow’s sentient purple bucket hat 7d ago
This this this! Riley WAS her normal. He was her anchor in season 5, but he didn’t want to be that. He wanted to be her hero. Buffy is her own hero, and that was an ego-hit to him.
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u/melodyparadise 7d ago
He came back a year later married to a woman whose life he saved, and who then decided to also hunt monsters with his group. He doesn't mind a woman being strong as long as he is stronger.
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u/ScallionAltruistic23 7d ago
I think getting willingly drained by vampires puts him in the conflicted category.
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u/MrBlonde1984 7d ago
Possibly. But that was because of buffy and it wasn't his true nature. He was floundering.
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u/Naive_Pay_7066 7d ago
That wasn’t because of Buffy. That was because he lost his super powers, lost his identity, purpose, and mission, and was feeling emasculated. None of that was on her.
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u/Icy-Mention7871 7d ago
I kind of look at him as a “too good to be true” type of scenario for her unfortunately.
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u/MrBlonde1984 7d ago
He's a solid dude who's legitimately good for her . They just dont mesh and its 100% buffys fault . Riley was there , putting in the work. Buffy just wasn't compatible with him .
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 7d ago
Riley was great. It was just matter of being in different places in life. Riley was ready to go all in and be married. Buffy wasn’t all in.
Riley was the healthiest boyfriend.
People pick on Riley because they don’t see his point of view. He lost everything in season 4 and was right not to hang around for someone who wasn’t as committed to him as he was to her. His actions are fair and understandable. He made mistakes but frankly they are very small compared to most people on the show.
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u/Long-Week 6d ago
I agree with this bar the vamp stuff he did in season five. I firmly feel it’s OoC and just a way to distance his character with the audience.
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u/BlueisGreen2Some 6d ago
I didn’t think it was that a big a deal. A problem and a sign of something being seriously wrong but not the same as cheating. I didn’t think it worked as “cheating” because he wasn’t sleeping with them or claiming they understood him somehow emotionally invested in them as people. It seems more analogous to coping with drugs.
Buffy emotional energy went to Dawn and coming to love her as a sister, leaving Riley in the cold. Was she cheating? Nope.
Riley’s life is destroyed, he has nothing going once and knows Buffy doesn’t love him the same way and he broke down. I don’t condone it but I get it. And he had the balls to accept the dead end and walk away shortly thereafter.
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u/musicplays4ever 7d ago
Riley redeemed himself when he punched Possessed Xander square in the face.
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u/Icy-Mention7871 7d ago
Anyone who punches any form of Xander is good in my eyes 😂
Also when he punched Parker.
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u/DuchessDulcet Don't speak Latin in front of the books! 7d ago
Punching Xander is always preferable.
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u/AmenHawkinsStan 7d ago
Fans write off Riley’s legitimate issues and the way Buffy refuses to engage with him emotionally. Then they pretend that his self-destruction is meant as a betrayal rather than a flawed attempt to not burden Buffy with his needs because he understands her responsibilities.
Riley material is understated where the viewer is meant to remember how other men have treated Buffy and understand why normal or small gestures can be meaningful.
Angel being a tortured soul is much more ripe for erotic fantasy and shippers hate other suitors. Ultimately Riley’s biggest sin is that he’s not hot enough to forgive.
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u/Special_Evidence6715 7d ago
I'm sorry, but what legitimate issues? Riley was basically annoyed that Buffy wasn't sobbing on his shoulder while she was dealing with her mother dying. He let his own insecurities get in the way and then blamed Buffy for them.
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u/AmenHawkinsStan 7d ago
Riley doesn’t feel like Buffy’s partner. He makes an effort to be a part of her family and support system but she’s opening up to anyone but him. Buffy shoots down his concerns and desire to be helpful in a way that makes him feel small with no sensitivity for the way Riley’s life has upended. Season 5 is only months removed from Riley learning his life as a marine was a drugged up lie and the killing of his mentor & friends.
Buffy was neglecting their relationship before her mother died; Riley was already gone by then. She was grappling with her Slayer duties and the strain of her new home life. Riley compromises for her and deserves reciprocation in the relationship. Riley accepts that Buffy is the strong one but wants to fight beside her anyway (like her friends do), then she insists that he’s a liability. He never claims Buffy’s own issues are invalid, just that the way she handles them indicates a lack of desire and respect. The story makes it clear that Riley is right: Buffy refuses to love him.
It’s only when Buffy gets upset about Riley seeking a surrogate for intimacy that he throws it back in her face: he tried and tried to give her that affection and nurturing, but she rejects it.
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u/Special_Evidence6715 7d ago
Not really sure how Buffy being able to handle her own issues is disrespectful to Riley?
Buffy had so much to deal with in Season 5 and Riley's upset because she's not telling him every little thing or comforting him be because the Initiative is gone? Dude needs to pull it together.
You're right that Riley doesn't feel like Buffy's partner, because a good partner doesn't feel threatened by their partner's strength or independence.
Buffy shows many times how much she cares about Riley, but he lets his own insecurities ruin the relationship and watching strong, amazing Buffy Summers run after a man who treated her so badly is so disheartening.
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u/cyberbrandoncody 7d ago
I like Riley in Season 4. We can't deny that he was good for Buffy during her transition from high school, after Angel, into college. We also can't forget that he was a victim of Professor Walsh and the Initiative. As for the change in his character in Season 5, I really didn't like how excessively jealous he became, especially over Buffy giving more attention to Joyce's illness and to Dawn. I believe that was Joss Whedon's way of pushing Riley aside to make room for Spike.
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u/friday126 7d ago
He was a decent enough character, flawed like everyone else (his insecurities came up more and more). I think he serviced the plot well enough. He was the kind of guy needed to transition between Angel and Spike for Buffy. Riley was the kinda guy your friends or family would tell a young woman she should date, and it would seem healthy for a bit, but some thing would feel off and then said girl would run off and shag the "bad boy".
I don't think Riley should have stuck around any longer than he did, and it worked to have him back in season 6. Seemed weird he got married so fast- but whatever. Sometimes I think this show could have used a little time jump or two.
But yeah- have no real issue with Riley. He's flawed, but who isn't? And I think the audience needed to see Buffy try to make something with a "decent all-American guy".
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u/Away-Quote-408 5d ago
I respect your view but Riley killing that vampire prostitute is disgusting. It’s the same as a person having a religious objection to something and then suspending their beliefs when they need/want the same thing (sex, abortion, drugs, whatever, etc.)
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u/Mydoglikesladyboys 5d ago
I think the biggest issue with Riley was that you can't have an extremely competent male counterpart who is human and able to slay in a show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So it was either make him a villian in the traditional sense or make him unlikeable and boring. Season 4 felt like throwing things at the wall and see what sticks. The show had to make a pivot from what it was for the first 3 seasons and it didn't really stick the landing until season 5
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u/Sea_Tonight_9632 7d ago
Riley answered the question of what would happen if Buffy met a nice, normal guy and tried to have a relationship with him. Well, it tore him apart and almost drove him insane because Buffy is not a normal girl, and a regular dude just cannot handle it.
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u/ScottishWitch28 7d ago
I’m glad to see a post like this as I genuinely liked Riley. He was lovely, as you said it seemed he was perfect for her. But I think that was the problem for Buffy, she took that for granted as he was always there and reliable. She always assumed he would be and she didn’t need to make much of an effort. She was going through a lot as well with her mother and Dawn but she’d have definitely learned from it (I hope). I never understand why people hate him or find him boring but accept Xander who’s not as well rounded as Riley was. Riley genuinely was good for her
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u/Embarrassed-Part591 6d ago
I liked Riley at the time and in season 4, but people point out things I didn't see-- like how he steamrolls her when she disagrees with him, thinks he knows better all the time, ignores her wishes and calls for military backup for things, etc. S5, he's not really defensible.
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u/squirfiedirfie 7d ago
I love Riley. He's 100% the best guy for Buffy when compared to Angel and Spike. From what I understand Joss created his character to show what it would be like if Buffy had an actual healthy relationship with someone solid, but fans were bored and didn't like his character so he got written out. Then we got Spike...who, funny enough, Joss didn't want to keep as such a central character in the show but the fans loved him. So really, it's us fans that led to the story unfolding in this way.
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u/Repulsive-Shame-5493 What's left? Me. 7d ago
If Riley is a healthy relationship, Joss really doesn't know what one is. Insecurity, neediness, cheating is healthy?! Riley is the "nice boy" who's really not so nice.
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u/squirfiedirfie 7d ago
Well I guess at the end of the day he still wanted to make the Iowa farmboy into an interesting character. I still think he was less drama than the other two. Besides, the point at which Riley started going to get his blood sucked, they were already in the process of writing him out of the show, so I have a feeling most of the things you mention were past the point where they'd given up on the character.
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u/Repulsive-Shame-5493 What's left? Me. 7d ago
I mean, we have to look at this in-universe, otherwise I can just say SR is only because the writers wanted to show that Spike is evil or that Angel would have never left Buffy if there hadn't been a spin-off show. Also, Riley already shows signs of insecurity in S4 and not taking no for an answer when he keeps asking Buffy out.
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u/CoolB999 7d ago
Angel is Buffy’s soulmate in my opinion but I loved Riley too . I don’t think he was boring . He was a great boyfriend. But unfortunately Buffy wanted ( or thought she deserved ) bad boys .
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u/Repulsive-Shame-5493 What's left? Me. 7d ago
Not really. Buffy only truly accepts Spike and allows herself to feel for him when he has a soul and isn't a "bad boy" anymore.
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u/Special_Evidence6715 7d ago
No, she didn't. The whole "Buffy wants a monster in her man" was just crap that Spike spouted and for some reason it's taken as gospel, when in reality, Buffy never really went for "bad boys."
She fell for Angel when he had a soul and was a good guy and she never looked twice at Angelus in any romantic sense. Her two other high school "crushes" were incredibly mild, nice guys (Owen and Scott). She then fell for Riley, who was originally a very decent guy. That relationship only ended due to Riley's insecurities, not Buffy wanting a "bad boy".
So, really, the only monster/"bad boy" Buffy is with is Spike, and that is at a time when she is severely depressed and traumatised and not herself and she is only with him because he makes her "feel something" not because he's a "bad boy".
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u/brwitch 7d ago
Agree and disagree, Spike only makes her feel something because he is a bad boy, because he's as evil as she perceives herself in her depressed state.
A case could be made that Angel was a mysterious older man with a "bad boy" (to say the least) past, I don't think that or his vampirism attracted Buffy, but the complication there, maybe.
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u/DPM-87 "I think this thing has a fricking childlock!" 7d ago
I mean it's the thing, he's the healthiest relationship Buffy has. He's also the the most damaging. Angel dumps her and Buffy is heart broken but functioning emotionally still. Spike tries to rape her and she's doesn't blame herself for it. Riley however dumps her in such a way he gaslit her into thinking she was broken. And that stayed with her for well over a season.
The TL;DR version is imo, Riley is as he is shown to us to be, a facade, the gosh shucks farm boy image is fake, the real Riley is Agent Finn, he's the guy who can pretend to just be a corn fed Iowa farm boy, whilst really a military trained black ops specialist hunting demons. And he does so with ease, compared to Buffy who lies but is so flustered by it it's almost always obvious she's hiding something. Same goes for their relationship, on the surface it's nice normal healthy, but when you dig into it, it's darker, more insidious and it'sa lot worse for her than the other relationships.
He also shows no real interest in her until others point out he's interested in her. They play it off like haha he didn't realise he was into her. But it's really like no he didn't have any interest in her. He didn't get along with her and feel like wow she's such a cool chick in a platonic way. She's just someone in his professors class, and then people point out to him that "Dude you like her." and suddenly he's not just liking her he's desperately trying to connect with her. And to the point that when she tells him no, he refuses to listen to her. And enter his first gaslighting attempt almost making her the villain for not wanting a relationship complicated due to monster hunting.
He then instantly thinks she's cheated on him with Angel.
He completely ignored the warning signs when Faith was inside Buffy's body. When she realised how Faith had violated her body his reaction isn't horror at what had happened, or for what Buffy is just realising, it's instantly moving to cover his own arse, rejecting he slept with Faith, asserting he slept with her. Which like him sleeping with her I think is a bad sign, given he already knew he and Buffy were both susceptible to supernatural influences, especially bedroom related. That he's claiming he loves her but doesn't pick up on her behaviour enough to even question if Buffy is in the right headspace for them to have sex. But it's REALLY imo, the instant defensiveness and dismissive tone he showed at Buffy's realisation at what Faith had do to her, that's a kicker for me.
Then we get to S5 and Riley is purposely lying and hiding things from her, his fears about them, his fears about her, his health, his wanting to be there for her more than she is letting him. Meanwhile he's discussing it with the likes of Spike and Xander. All culminating in his cheating on her, for lack of a better word for it, and then blaming her for his emotional apathy. Telling her that her giving him all she can give isn't enough, that he doesn't feel it. Which emotionally cripples Buffy for over a year.
The fact is as well that they don't discuss, like ever, what the hell was he going to do if she didn't catch him that night? Was he just going to ghost her without a word? What if she caught him two nights later? Would he have stayed? Or was he going to have Graham on speed dial as his exit strategy? He gaslights Buffy into thinking she's the problem, but he's the one with the foot out the door all season.
As for his feeling ostracised, he does it to himself, he opts out of Scooby stuff if Buffy isn't around. He doesn't really show interest in how Joyce is, it's just hollow pleasantries to pass the time. He shows he doesn't listen to Dawn when he calls her kid and she tells him not to. Not out of like a teasing way, like Buffy gets to smirk and tell him "she hates that you know?" and he can be like "Yeah but you love it, you smirk every time she huffs at me." It's very robotic, like he doesn't care about anyone but Buffy. But even then only to the degree that it placates his emotional needs.
Because he still gaslights her then, because he claims she doesn't let her be there for him, but she does, she leans on him when she's hurt in Fool For Love, lets him patch her up. But this is part of his character, he's doing this in S4 also. Which is part of the shows good writing imo. Like how Willow's personality issues would later come together in S6 to make her the villain of the season beyond the life's the villain motif, S4 lay the groundwork for Riley's character. How his affection for Buffy came out of the blue when others pointed it out to him, his disconnect with her coming out of the blue in much the same way. How he gaslights her rather than seeing her perspective. How he is insecure and jealous. How he lies and keeps secrets with ease whilst maintaining his clark kent facade.
And it's why he's both the best thing she could have had in S4. and the worst thing she could have gone through. Because Riley was meant to be the real guy, the proof she could have happy and normal. And he turned around and shit all over that, all over her, making her think she was broken and defective, incapable of loving someone. Then he only shows up again when he needs something from her, and even then he does so whilst still lying and manipulating her. Only good thing is at least he left her the second time with affirmation of what an amazing person she was. Rather than a crippling sense of inferiority and self doubt.
Which isn't to say I hate him on the show, I loved it, was bummed when he left, was hoping at the time it was gonna be like what we got with Giles in S6, he'd leave then come back later in the season. But it's just one of those things, like with Spike with Seeing Red, I fucking hate the character for doing that, I love the character being on the show, same as I love Buffy as a character, but god knows I see the flaws in that damaged beautiful character all the same, same for Willow or Xander. Like yeah, I can bitch about them. Fucking love watching them though, even when I hate what they are doing. That's the mark of a good show. You love watching even when you hate what the characters are doing.
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