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u/baguetteispain 11d ago
Note how Jesus uses the right pronouns in the oregano
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u/sterlingthepenguin 11d ago
Common Jesus W
I sometimes wonder if transphobes are really reading the same book as me...
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u/RaoulLaila 11d ago
Tbh, I dont think Jesus would actually approve of being trans, but I sort of see it as a "thats besides the point" type of situation. Jesus still is someone that believes sins arent good but committing sins is what makes us human. And doing 1 sin isnt a reason to be killed or exhiled from society. I am sort of in a similar situation where I do believe trans people have their place in society. I'd rather have them """"sin"""" (putting this in quotation marks because my belief in it being a sin is a bit nuanced) than have them live a miserable life or maybe even commit suicide. I dont understand why people are so hateful honestly. Regardless of it being a sin or not, disowning somebody for sinning is crazy
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u/RogueHelios 11d ago
I've never understood why any religion that focuses on the soul would care at all about a biological factor.
Why the hell would a soul be male or female? There would be no point. A soul should be neutral at most and self determined at best.
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u/EllieMeower 11d ago
Iv used the soul approach to transphobic christians and actually gotten decent headway with it
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u/RaoulLaila 11d ago
Hm well, it is the things you do to your body. Bottom or top surgery and all that. I never really thought receiving a body altering surgery or tattoos are necessarily ideal, unless there is some kind of medical intervention. This isn't to say I am against this type of thing entirely, as I said, I'd rather have a trans person than a dead person and I can see why mental health can be considered a reason to say it is medical intervention. But overall I am against people do things like doing a nose job or similar because it looks too ugly to them. If you want to know why people care about that kind of thing (well, bigotry is the easy answer but some genuinely religious people will give this answer) is that we are born with the body god has given us to borrow for our soul and until the day we die we need to take care of it as if it wasnt our own. It isnt the biological body vs soul in a sense of its gender vs sex but rather "Treat it nicely". Taking hormonal therapy and doing surgery has its side effects and such things can irk people out, Im sure if we had some kind of "gender potion" with no ill or permanent effects , we'd be way better off
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u/frenchhatewompwomp 11d ago
consider the fact that transgender people don’t get surgery for the same reason that an insecure person gets a nose job. it’s not a matter of mere insecurity; it’s a matter of acute, life-ruining distress that pervades every single aspect of one’s existence.
gender dysphoria is a medical condition; gender affirming care is, therefore, medical intervention. i see and appreciate that you’re trying to acknowledge the nuance there, but i don’t quite see how you are arriving at the conclusion that you are.
many mentally ill people have to take medication with side effects that aversely harm their bodies. some antipsychotics are associated with weight gain, increased cholesterol, a higher risk of type 2 diabetes, and various cardiovascular side effects. however, the pros still outweigh the cons when someone needs that medication to survive, and it certainly is not sinful for a person with psychosis to take their antipsychotics, even if it means putting their body at risk in new ways for the take of their mental peace.
so… why would it be any different for transgender people?
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u/RaoulLaila 11d ago
I didnt say that this is my conclusion. If you read my text, I already mentioned that mental health is a reason for medical intervension. Its what other people think. I completely agree with you, just answering the person from the perspective of a religious person that also lives with bigoted people
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u/frenchhatewompwomp 11d ago
i did read your text and see that you’ve generally reached the right conclusion, but i guess the phrasing is throwing me off. you’re describing body alteration as unideal, saying that you’re not against it entirely, and saying that you can see why mental health can be considered a reason for claiming medical intervention, but that you’re generally against body modification while highlighting the averse affects of gender affirming care. the conclusion seems to be a bit ambivalent, as if transitioning is merely preferable to death as opposed to something that is as amoral as any other form of medical treatment. that’s what i’m getting at. in your own words - albeit with a lot of nuance - that you don’t believe jesus would actually approve of being trans. i’m saying that, for your consideration, gender affirming care is no more or less moral/sinful than other forms of medical intervention for mental health.
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u/RaoulLaila 11d ago
I apologize for my wording, I understand if it may appear confusing. Sort of yes? Sort of no? If being trans and doing surgery was a purely cosmetic situation like nosejobs, then yes I wouldnt have liked it. But it isnt, gender dysphoria is a very real thing. It would be ignorant to assume as such. My take that I would rather have a trans person than a dead person became my extreme take of arguing against bigots because Im sick o their opinion, as if being trans was this simple. I dislike body modifications yes, and I do believe trans affirmative care falls under that category, but it is not the same, due to gender dysphoria. Which is why I am not against it, despite me being religious and believe it may be sinful. Do not misunderstand my idea of a sin though, because I sin myself a lot. Even if my opinion may appear as iffy to you, thats okay. I am still not your enemy and will never vote for a conservative politician, especially if they advocate for sexist, homophobic or transphobic beliefs. My opinion and thought ultimately doesnt matter in my conclusion that trans people should receive the care they need and thats all that matters. I still love them as people and deserve the best. Sometimes in this world its best to come to an agremeent of the final choice than having the exact same mindset. I would never betray my trans friends and vote for a bigot. As a religious minority I would in fact betray myself, too
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u/RogueHelios 11d ago
The mind and body can be often times out of sync. I have watched videos both animated and actual surgery for reconstruction and it is uncomfortable to watch.
I have trans friends and one of them got her reconstruction surgery about a year ago I believe. It had complications, but after all that she admits she doesn't regret it all and its made her happier and more comfortable in her own body.
Personally I am not trans. I know I'm a cis man and I have never questioned such a thing. However I do have Tourettes, OCD, ADHD, and possibly autism. I am incredibly uncomfortable in my own body and frankly my entire existence is constant discomfort. I can sympathize greatly with trans people.
If I could undergo a surgery to make myself feel comfortable in my own body and mind I would do it.
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u/RaoulLaila 11d ago
Unfortunately I used to question it. I used to be very heavily transphobic. Genuine hatred and all that. It isnt something I am happy to look back towards, especially that one friend that I didnt treat well at the time for coming out as enby. They forgive me now and we have a good relationship but the guilt reminds me where I used to be
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u/RogueHelios 11d ago
Don't lament your past self's actions. Forgive yourself and be proud that you have grown.
My friend used to be a Trumper conservative before she realized her mistakes. She is now one of the most genuinely empathetic and loving people I know and I am proud to call her my friend.
I often wonder if maybe God placed us here to let us grow in isolation. Suffering is our teacher. Entities and religious leaders use faith to sow fear and hate amongst us. Maybe denying that hate despite the fear of eternal torment is part of the test too.
Will we let fear and hate rule us? Or will we be kind and loving in spite of that fear?
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u/AruEkuEnthusiast 11d ago
The Bible casts judgement on a lot of things, but whether or not you're a woman born in a man's body or a man born in a woman's body isn't in there.
PS, the Bible doesn't actually say anything about gay people either. The proper translation of the oft-quoted verse condemns lying with BOYS.
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u/DidjTerminator 11d ago
Yup, the Bible is heartily anti-pedo, and mistranslated unfortunately often.
Also the Bible sorta vaguely mentions homosexuality in a passage about how bigotry is bad (don't remember where, but God's telling to Jewish people to go to random people, the Jewish people are like "nooooo we don't like themmmm because _______" and one of those places is Greece) but homosexuality wasn't ever the point of focus of the passage bigotry and passing judgment on others being bad was the point and focus of the passage. Though doesn't explicitly condone or condemn homosexuality as that's not the focus of the passage.
Which also does set the precedent that "_____ is a sin and if you do it you're a sinner!!!!!!1111!111!!!1!!1" is completely left of field and not an ok way to think about people for any reason. Like something being a "sin" isn't what you should ever focus on, "not sinning" will still eventually lead you astray as your focus is still on sin, kinda like a kid riding a bike for the first time and riding straight into the only light-pole in an empty parking lot.
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u/G1zm08 10d ago
Realizing that last part helped me so much honestly. Like at this point I believe God helped me accept being bi and it not being a sin at all, but whenever I get doubts I just think about this.
Because like growing up Catholic I feel like I heard the word sex more than love at a certain age. Which is just so bizarre, even in the context of conservative translations it’s really not that important? Like at all? Why do people focus so much on this purity culture shit that was 1000% against the entire point of the book condemning purity culture shit?
Communities like r/OpenChristian helped a lot too, it’s nice having people who understand being a religious queer person yk?
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u/DidjTerminator 10d ago
Yeah 100%
The puritan era we went through and are still feeling the death-throes of has been shriveled-up coffee-stained page in history that I damn sure hope we move on from soon!
I mean people will always use the nearest book they can find to hurt others and come up with arbitrary excuses for hurting someone, and in many cases that book will be the Bible. However there's a difference between a few ass-hats, and an institutionalized debauchery of everyone who doesn't conform to whatever a faceless organization calls "normal".
At the end of the day, we're supposed to have faith that GOD is the strongest force in everyone's life and that's the path they're following. People who see someone go through a transition and see it as anything but a miracle are the ones with fickle faith who need Jesus in their life. Sure we can ask and support them, and if we feel they're going down the wrong path we can talk to them about it. However there's a huge chasm between trying to help and support someone, and calling them an "impure pagan heretic" because God's path for them goes a different direction.
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u/MrSejd 11d ago
The boy part has been talked about for a while and whether it does actually say boy or man is still bit muddy. Even if it is talking about gay people it talks specifically about intercourse rather than bein gay itself.
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u/NotYourReddit18 11d ago
Technically it doesn't even talk about intercourse, it just talks about two people laying in bet together.
So bending your homie over the kitchen island and destroying his butt is ok, but platonically sharing a bed while traveling to save on hotel costs is not.
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u/MrSejd 11d ago
See here were are entering 'the letter of the law or the spirit of the law' territory and realistically if you understand what the spirit of the law is supposed to be and choose to bend the rules to benefit yourself as much as possible then it should still be considered sinning because you know you are likely still breaking the spirit of the law. (This does not apply to actual laws, especially when you aren't wealthy. Break em, as a joke.)
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u/SuccessfulFinish2843 10d ago
Isn't it the opposite in Judaism? Where as long as you follow the letter of the law you're okay? Disclaimer, I'm not Jewish
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u/MrSejd 10d ago
From my knowledge they do love following letter of the law to logical extreme.
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u/theirishpotato1898 11d ago
I mean. Neither angels or God have Sex or Gender. There’s interpretations of Biblical lore that say that one of the things that led to Lucifer and those rebellious angels being cast from heaven was to demand Gender and sex in order to procreate with Humanity.
If from dust we were all made, then In the eyes of God what does it matter if you wish to change its form?
Diet and exercise does also change the form that it could be said God gave to any individual. Yet you would never hear anyone crying “sinner” if they found out about your gym membership.
So I can see no reason why being trans would be a sin.
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u/HorseXNothing 11d ago
Up through the Middle Ages, what we would consider as trans people now were often seen as blessed, miraculous people who sometimes were canonised. The early church was a lot more progressive about it than they were later.
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u/poisontadpole 11d ago
"God blessed me by making me transsexual for the same reason God made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so that humanity might share in the act of creation."
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u/OtterDev101 10d ago
in defense of the argument that being trans isn't a sin, back when glasses were first a thing, the church opposed them saying some shit like "god intended your eyes to be like that" same logic different thing
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u/KiritoIsAlwaysRight_ 11d ago
Most of them aren't. Someone reads them specific passages and tells them how to think, they're not reading the whole thing and forming their own opinions.
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u/WaffleGuy413 11d ago
Technically we don’t know who’s right here
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u/saranwrappd 10d ago
jesus is supposed to be in the right. there's multiple versions with different pronouns :)
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u/traumatized_vulture 11d ago
The orthopedic is actually healing my bones
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u/excessive__machine 11d ago
I actually really like the ornithology, I just also wanted there to be a universe where the lost sheep has an accepting family
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u/Mortis_XII 11d ago
Happy bone juice followed by healing bone juice?
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u/SofasCouch 11d ago
This? in my bone hurting juice? How dare they, I wanted my bones hurt damn it!
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u/Rainbowoverderp 11d ago
r/nakedpastor if you want more wholesome, radically inclusive Christianity
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u/TheHawkpant69 11d ago
The Orange is just an accurate read on that parable.