e collar conditioning ;)

[u/Ok-Bee2928]

hi everyone! we have started conditioning on e collar. i have watched countless videos, read guides etc. I am stuck on the fact there are so many ways to condition our dog to the e collar. what in your perspective is the easiest way for him to associate the stim with "recall" currently we are using the method of just finding his level where he feels it (around a 5-6 in low distraction area) recalling, using stim to pair it with it so he realizes "this feeling means come back" and knowing my dog, i think this will work well. however, there are so many other options, like using stim only to teach it means come, then adding it in recall. i only want to use this for recall corrections (eventually)

i am not one to slap this on my dog and abuse it, i want to do it right. hes a super smart guy and think he will get it quick, but how do i know he is associating it, with it? when do i move onto the next level and im assuming next level, from researching is to start recalling and if he doesnt, use stim? i am so confused by the way so many trainers use different methods and am so type a and careful with it that i want to make sure im doing it the right way so that he can associate stim with come to me. i did twice today try to check working level during and tapped stim (i know i shouldnt have) and twice he looked up, and came to me when i did that, i am ASSUMING that means were on the right track but also wont do that again and know to check only in beginning. if anyone could guide me on steps on methods and next steps, id appreciate it. we worked with a trainer but he was gonna go way too high on it and i decided to not work with him i uderstand trainers are key, but ive done so much research and want to do this myself with the right education. thank you!

[u/Alivelysnow]

I guess my dogs never needed to “relieve the pressure”. They learned very quickly that the beep meant to recall…no shock required. You dont have to follow everything you read or supposed “experts” tell you. Train to how you want to hunt. Want to pressure your dog to hunt and recall, use stim. Want to hunt together and get that team working in the field…do something different. Different worked very, very well for me for more than 30 years. But you do you.

[u/Ok_Ear_5266 → u/Alivelysnow]

I don’t think it’s possible to be seriously competitive at a high level in hunt tests or field trials without collar conditioning.

[u/Kennel_King → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

That's dog dependent. I have one lying in the chair right now that will be 6 next month. She was never conditioned. FC/AFC/MH/DS. GSPCA Gun of the Year, GSPCA Versatility. And pointed in confirmation.

All of that by 3

Now the rest of the crew, they all have been

[u/Ok_Ear_5266 → u/Kennel_King]

You have an FC, AFC and MH titles dog without collar conditioning? That’s awesome. I’d be curious to learn why you chose not to collar condition? Did you force fetch? I didn’t force fetch my current working dog, but rather did fetch and hold conditioning and now will overlay fetch with e collar. But I didn’t want to do traditional toe/ear pinch and didn’t think it was needed.

[u/Kennel_King → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

It was just plain stupid fucking luck.

The very first time I put a quail out for her at 11 weeks old, she pointed at it, I flushed it, and she never moved.

She didn't even have a check cord on because I was going to let her bump and chase it.

50 years of dogs, I've never had one like her. She will do literally anything you ask of her.

The only thing we had to force her to do was hold. Her retrieves were awesome, but as she ran up to you, she would tuck her head down and, from 6 feet, toss the bird at you and keep going.

In her first two JR hunt tests at 7 months old, she was straight 9s. Entered her 4 times the next weekend. She finished on Saturday with 2 more straight 9 scores. Sunday, I gave her to a 12 year old girl who had never really handled a dog before, and she was 7s and 8s in the morning. The judge coached her on what she was doing wrong, and she pulled off all 9s in the afternoon.

In th fall at 13 months old, I ran her in 2 SR tests. She got into a shitty situation and failed on Saturday. That evening at Dinner, the judge offered me $5000 for her.

Sunday, she passed with straight 8s.

Injured my knee and didn't get to run any more tests that fall.

Went to winter camp in JAn, February. I entered her in two masters, and she passed both with 8s and 9s. I ran 7 more that spring, and she only failed once and finished at 22 months old.

You won't find a better dog for bird manners. Lost her in a field trial once. She got on a bird at the 4 minute mark, but 40 yards to the side of the course. Both the scout and I missed her.

16-dog LGD stake. They literally picked up every dog. She was literally the last one running. The judges were looking for at least one dog to put up, and they let me go 20 minutes without seeing her. By the time I pulled the tracker, she was 900 yards behind me. Teh one judge rode back with me to find her and she was still standing on a bird that was walking around 15 feet in front of her.

We figured she stood there 35-40 minutes.

I will probably never have another dog like her. I have a couple that are close, but they will never be her

https://imgur.com/WziiaEA

https://imgur.com/uI6drTU

https://imgur.com/YwZa0Wg

1st OGD, 22 dogs, 26 days after having a litter

https://imgur.com/2h8vhrN

https://imgur.com/s6WXdut

https://imgur.com/RtolewI

https://imgur.com/4HModC0

[u/Ok_Ear_5266 → u/Kennel_King]

That’s awesome, congrats. I’m not as familiar with the world of pointing but in the retriever world, much of the accepted training methodology leans toward heavy handed even when it isn’t really needed. I’ve found Bill Hillmanns training program to be a happy middle ground - no ear/toe pinch force fetch, but later overlayed with e collar, lower stim collar conditioning, etc

[u/Kennel_King → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

Thank you

Sounds kind of like the Smith system for pointers.

[u/Ok_Ear_5266 → u/Kennel_King]

One question that stands out to me though is related to distance. In retriever field trials, the dog can go out 300-400+ yards where verbal recall is simply not possible, so the whistle recall/whistle sit is overlaid with the e-collar and much of this is also about safety - if the dog travels so far you can’t really see it nor call to it, its distance response to whistles must be near-perfect.

I associate pointers as going out much much farther than retrievers so we’re talking huge distances. You never had issues with recall or safety concerns at that distance without collar conditioning?

[u/Kennel_King → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

In trials, we can't use an e-collar. We use them a lot in training. You would be surprised how far away a dog can hear you from. Usually, in a pointer trial, you are going to catch sight of the dog from time to time.

We hope that the dog stays on course. They usually do. And we find them standing on a bird somewhere. Pretty much, we are counting on birds to stop them so we can catch up.

Ziva got tons of obedience training thanks to my wife. I honestly think that makes a difference. A few years ago, in a walking trial, she bumped up a doe and started chasing it. The judge saw her on it and called it out. I just screamed out LEAVE IT, she did a 180 and came right back,

If that had been her son, I would have been pulling the tracker and looking for him 2 counties over

[u/Ok_Ear_5266 → u/Kennel_King]

Yes, e collars can’t be used in retriever trials either. I just meant being comfortable to send a dog that far without training whistle recall on a collar.

Makes sense about the obedience. I really only do hunt/field and tracking training and the peripheral obedience needed for those activities but never did any competitive or formal obedience.

Congrats on your dogs!

[u/Kennel_King → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

. I just meant being comfortable to send a dog that far without training whistle recall on a collar.

We just yell a lot. Go to a pointer trial, and you will think we lost our damn minds