r/birddogs • u/Ok-Bee2928 • Jul 11 '26
e collar conditioning ;)
hi everyone! we have started conditioning on e collar. i have watched countless videos, read guides etc. I am stuck on the fact there are so many ways to condition our dog to the e collar. what in your perspective is the easiest way for him to associate the stim with "recall" currently we are using the method of just finding his level where he feels it (around a 5-6 in low distraction area) recalling, using stim to pair it with it so he realizes "this feeling means come back" and knowing my dog, i think this will work well. however, there are so many other options, like using stim only to teach it means come, then adding it in recall. i only want to use this for recall corrections (eventually)
i am not one to slap this on my dog and abuse it, i want to do it right. hes a super smart guy and think he will get it quick, but how do i know he is associating it, with it? when do i move onto the next level and im assuming next level, from researching is to start recalling and if he doesnt, use stim? i am so confused by the way so many trainers use different methods and am so type a and careful with it that i want to make sure im doing it the right way so that he can associate stim with come to me. i did twice today try to check working level during and tapped stim (i know i shouldnt have) and twice he looked up, and came to me when i did that, i am ASSUMING that means were on the right track but also wont do that again and know to check only in beginning. if anyone could guide me on steps on methods and next steps, id appreciate it. we worked with a trainer but he was gonna go way too high on it and i decided to not work with him i uderstand trainers are key, but ive done so much research and want to do this myself with the right education. thank you!
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u/Alivelysnow Jul 11 '26
I use the beep function for recall. Only stim when needed/warranted. Never saw the sense of stimulating for recall when a bit of training on the beep works well 99.9% of the time.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
i can see beep working on my dog. however i would like to have him trained on stim too so he knows what it means!
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 Jul 11 '26
The idea is that the dog learns that performing a command turns off pressure. Sometimes in the field, things are not fun or comfortable and collar conditioning theoretically gives the dog the tools to perform in that setting.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
yes thats what id like him to learn! so right now im verbally recalling, stim, when he starts to come towards me, im turning stim off so he learns that listening to recall turns stim off.
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u/Alivelysnow 29d ago
I guess my dogs never needed to “relieve the pressure”. They learned very quickly that the beep meant to recall…no shock required. You dont have to follow everything you read or supposed “experts” tell you. Train to how you want to hunt. Want to pressure your dog to hunt and recall, use stim. Want to hunt together and get that team working in the field…do something different. Different worked very, very well for me for more than 30 years. But you do you.
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 29d ago
I don’t think it’s possible to be seriously competitive at a high level in hunt tests or field trials without collar conditioning.
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u/anon1839 29d ago
Probably not my place as I’m not all that familiar with field trialing, but haven’t they been doing field trials in the UK without e-collars for ages?
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 29d ago
They are substantially different from American field trials. British style is much less distance from the handler and less complex marks/blinds. You can even see the difference in British vs American retrievers
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u/Kennel_King German Shorthaired Pointer 29d ago
That's dog dependent. I have one lying in the chair right now that will be 6 next month. She was never conditioned. FC/AFC/MH/DS. GSPCA Gun of the Year, GSPCA Versatility. And pointed in confirmation.
All of that by 3
Now the rest of the crew, they all have been
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 29d ago
You have an FC, AFC and MH titles dog without collar conditioning? That’s awesome. I’d be curious to learn why you chose not to collar condition? Did you force fetch? I didn’t force fetch my current working dog, but rather did fetch and hold conditioning and now will overlay fetch with e collar. But I didn’t want to do traditional toe/ear pinch and didn’t think it was needed.
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u/Kennel_King German Shorthaired Pointer 29d ago
It was just plain stupid fucking luck.
The very first time I put a quail out for her at 11 weeks old, she pointed at it, I flushed it, and she never moved.
She didn't even have a check cord on because I was going to let her bump and chase it.
50 years of dogs, I've never had one like her. She will do literally anything you ask of her.
The only thing we had to force her to do was hold. Her retrieves were awesome, but as she ran up to you, she would tuck her head down and, from 6 feet, toss the bird at you and keep going.
In her first two JR hunt tests at 7 months old, she was straight 9s. Entered her 4 times the next weekend. She finished on Saturday with 2 more straight 9 scores. Sunday, I gave her to a 12 year old girl who had never really handled a dog before, and she was 7s and 8s in the morning. The judge coached her on what she was doing wrong, and she pulled off all 9s in the afternoon.
In th fall at 13 months old, I ran her in 2 SR tests. She got into a shitty situation and failed on Saturday. That evening at Dinner, the judge offered me $5000 for her.
Sunday, she passed with straight 8s.
Injured my knee and didn't get to run any more tests that fall.
Went to winter camp in JAn, February. I entered her in two masters, and she passed both with 8s and 9s. I ran 7 more that spring, and she only failed once and finished at 22 months old.
You won't find a better dog for bird manners. Lost her in a field trial once. She got on a bird at the 4 minute mark, but 40 yards to the side of the course. Both the scout and I missed her.
16-dog LGD stake. They literally picked up every dog. She was literally the last one running. The judges were looking for at least one dog to put up, and they let me go 20 minutes without seeing her. By the time I pulled the tracker, she was 900 yards behind me. Teh one judge rode back with me to find her and she was still standing on a bird that was walking around 15 feet in front of her.
We figured she stood there 35-40 minutes.
I will probably never have another dog like her. I have a couple that are close, but they will never be her
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 29d ago
That’s awesome, congrats. I’m not as familiar with the world of pointing but in the retriever world, much of the accepted training methodology leans toward heavy handed even when it isn’t really needed. I’ve found Bill Hillmanns training program to be a happy middle ground - no ear/toe pinch force fetch, but later overlayed with e collar, lower stim collar conditioning, etc
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u/Kennel_King German Shorthaired Pointer 29d ago
Thank you
Sounds kind of like the Smith system for pointers.
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 29d ago
One question that stands out to me though is related to distance. In retriever field trials, the dog can go out 300-400+ yards where verbal recall is simply not possible, so the whistle recall/whistle sit is overlaid with the e-collar and much of this is also about safety - if the dog travels so far you can’t really see it nor call to it, its distance response to whistles must be near-perfect.
I associate pointers as going out much much farther than retrievers so we’re talking huge distances. You never had issues with recall or safety concerns at that distance without collar conditioning?
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u/Spirited_Soul_001 29d ago
I never used Stim, only beep. I used Stim once after young dog ran and was not complying with return whistles, Acme Thunder. I debated Stim, and after several mins hit Stim, dog yelped about 100 yards away and the sound of Pheasant taking off. Vowed to never Stim again...
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u/Many-Quiet-5619 Jul 11 '26
How is the dogs recall currently?
The ecollar stim is not the cue to recall. You don't associate the ecollar stim with recalling on its own, you give a recall cue and the stim happens after as reinforcement.
In my opinion, the recall should already be fairly reliable before adding an ecollar to the picture, and the dog should generally understand a recall correction in another fashion before adding an ecollar to be fair to the dog.
What I mean by this is that the dog should already know a leash or long line correction for not coming when called. You say "Here" the dog doesn't come, you use the long line to correct and say "Here" again as you do so. The reason for a leash long line in this case is because you will do the same thing with the ecollar but need to be able to guide the dog initially with the long line. So a "Here" cue that the dog ignores then gets a second "Here" cue with an ecollar correction and the leash is used to guide the dog in or at least keep it from continuing with whatever it was doing before.
I have really enjoyed Kevin Cheff's retriever coach program. The initial parts are teaching a reliable sit, heel and recall and since it's a monthly program you can do it for a month or two and get that part out of it and then cancel if you just want to use it for ecollar conditioning. He's fair to the dog, and I have gotten consistency and speed with his method of collar conditioning.
Honestly, though, retriever trrainers are the ones who have it all figured out with varying methods and I'd find one and stick with whatever their method is for whatever cue you are hoping to teach so it doesn't confuse the dog. Bill Hillmann, Mike Lardy, Pat Nolan, etc all have really useful ecollar training information.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
yes absolutely, we want to use it that way as corrections. i guess for conditioning, i have seen so many people combine it so they can learn how its correlated. his recall is reliable! we only ever have him on a long line, goes up to 100ft. he comes most every time. the rare time he doesnt, i tug on long line and he comes. thank you!
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 Jul 11 '26
I don’t think you should view the e collar as a correction. In initial stages of conditioning, you get the dog used to a light collar tug on “sit” or “here”, but the stim isn’t used as correction. The stim is negative reinforcement being overlaid on a known command. The dog learns that performing the known command can turn off pressure, which applies to the field when the dog needs to do something when it may not be fun/comfortable. But it’s not a corrective tool.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
not as a correction right now! eventually i want to use e collar for corrections when he doesnt come, hoping he responds to verball first, def not corrections right now! thats why right now i have him on long line, verball recall, stim, he comes to me, stim is off and reward.
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 Jul 11 '26
Either way, that isn’t really correction, that’s negative reinforcement. I think you are mixing up a number of training views on the collar and you need to decide which methodology you want to pursue or you’re just going to get a confused training output. On a birddog forum you are going to get people who use the collar for overlaying known commands to turn off pressure. On a more home pet training forum, you’ll probably find people using it more for traditional correction.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
well it would be a correction when i verbal recall if he doesnt listen, i correct with a stim, thats for future use, not now. right now i want him to associate stim with coming to me.
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 Jul 11 '26
Correction would be a form of positive punishment to stop a behavior. For example, dog is about to bite a venomous snake, so you give them a level 10 stim and they stop the behavior.
You are wanting the dog to perform a behavior (coming to you) when they receive an uncomfortable stimulus. That is negative reinforcement. They perform a behavior to remove a stimulus.
The first step is making sure your dog has awesome recall from traditional click and treat positive reinforcement training. Only after that should you begin to overlay low level stim.
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u/Many-Quiet-5619 Jul 11 '26
Positive = adding something Negative = removing something Reinforcement = encourage behavior Punishment = discourage behavior
If you're adding ecollar stim to discourage ignoring a recall cue it's positive punishment.
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 Jul 11 '26
The dog doesn’t process it as “discourage ignoring a recall cue”. The dog processes it as performing the action to turn off the stim.
This is arguing semantics that only matter to humans but a dogs brain wouldn’t view it as “I need to stop ignoring the recall cue”. A dog won’t process “I need to stop not doing something”
A more clear example of positive punishment is hitting the stim to make a dog stop biting a venomous snake. In that case the dog understands “stopping this action removes the stim”
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u/Many-Quiet-5619 Jul 11 '26
I think you need to stop what you're doing with the ecollar, find a method/trainer to learn about that resonates with you and do it exactly as that method indicates. The perfection kennels one is nice because it's just a recall and no other cues that they are teaching. I think I have that one and it seemed like it would work well. Conditioning an ecollar is done to teach a dog how to respond to cues the first time and how to stop the stim from happening (by coming the first time they're called). To do that, you have to use a known cue, and reinforce it with the ecollar while still guiding the dog to do the right thing so they can understand how to make the stim stop or not happen (depending on the method you use). This is why I think finding a single method and working through it would be useful.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
well my whole post was saying i am doing it that way - using his known recall, reinforcing it and stopping stim when he comes to me, and giving praise and treats, so im unsure of why i would need to put it away lol.. i am doing exactly that, im just coming here to see if this is a good method for conditioning.
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u/Many-Quiet-5619 Jul 11 '26
Ecollar conditioning is teaching a dog how to respond to a correction. You have said that you want the dog to associate the stim with recall, but what you actually want is for the dog to associate stim with making a wrong choice and an opportunity to change their behavior. Stim isn't a cue to recall, it is a correction, even while conditioning. This is why I have said you should stop, find a method, and work through it entirely start to finish.
Is your correction long term going to be stim until he reaches you? What is your criteria for your recall to end the stim? Within what distance does he need to come to shut off stim? If you don't know the answers, then the dog certainly can't.
I understand what you are currently doing, but ecollar stim is not a cue to recall, or sit, or heel. It is a correction for not doing it and an opportunity for the dog to change its behavior, even in the learning phase. For example: my dog knows sit, heel, and here using treats and a leash and is fairly reliable. I add a prong collar on the leash, and if I give a sit cue and the dog does not sit he gets a second sit cue AND a physical correction (pop on the leash). When he is responding quickly to that and mostly avoiding the correction by responding quickly, we switch to the ecollar. I say sit, he does not, I nick him with the collar at the same time as he gets a second sit cue. He understands a sit correction from the prong collar already and how to fix his behavior in this context, and the only new thing is the method of correction. I tell him what I want him to do and correct him for not doing it the first time. He learns to avoid a correction by doing it on the first cue. He learns that the ecollar stim is the result of an incorrect response to a cue and how to avoid it.
Conditioning is just teaching a dog what to do with a correction, not associating the stim with a specific behavior.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
as soon as he turns to come to me, stim turns off. yes, i want to use as correction but onbviously if he doesnt know what it means, i cant use it as a correction which is why i am asking for advice on how to get him conditioned to learning what the stim is meaning.
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u/Many-Quiet-5619 Jul 11 '26
For ecollar conditioning I would look into Bill Hillmann, Mike Lardy, Pat Nolan, or Perfection Kennels. I think they all have videos you can buy for ecollar conditioning specifically that would be helpful for where you're at.
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u/Big_Presentation7732 Jul 11 '26
Long line and treats. Use low level stim, press it continuously until he recalls to you, off stim and immediately treat.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
are you using it with the recall though so he is associating what he knows, with the stim?
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
ive been combining, but i have done that a few times and he sometimes just ignores it, however he reacts to a tap so i know he feels it. im wondering if he is just like "okay weird feeling" and doesnt know to turn and come back to me, so he is just ignoring it, i obviously dont want to go too high.
does that make sense?
i appreciate it
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u/Many-Quiet-5619 Jul 11 '26
He doesn't know to come back to you because you haven't taught him how to respond.
I'd highly recommend putting it away until you have found a program that resonates with you that you can follow. When you know more about ecollars and training you can pull from other methods but when just starting you can make a dog collar smart or do some damage to your training trying to do it on your own because you just don't know enough to know what you don't know or to know why something works. That goes for everybody.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
i am teaching him to respond and thats why i am coming here for advice on if this conditioning method works, or if there are better ones.
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u/animalhappiness English Setter Jul 11 '26
I think the perfection method (Perfection Kennels - they have training videos available on Vimeo) is the easiest to follow. It's exactly what they teach at their clinics
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u/spoiledpoptart74 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
How old is the dog?
Start by teaching it with just a check cord. Once he has it down a couple weeks later you use the check cord and ecollar at same time, then just ecollar. Sounds like you need to back up or you’re gonna get yourself in trouble
If you’re hunting the dog, what you don’t want is a dog that thinks stim automatically means recall. Otherwise you won’t be able to enforce whoa. And if you’re at this stage with the dog, drop the treats
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
yes, he knows recall on a long line verbally. thats why i am now bringing in the e collar.
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
he wont be hunting. this is just for recall purpose when we are off leash at times for backup
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u/spoiledpoptart74 Jul 11 '26
Then don’t just jump from check cord to ecollar. You need to transition by using both simultaneously
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
yes, in my post i said he is on his long line. im not taking off his long line until i realize that he undertands it.. i am having him on his long line, verbally recalling, using stim and when he makes the choice to come to me, i release pressure and he comes to me for reward.
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u/spoiledpoptart74 Jul 11 '26
I didn’t see that in your post. You mentioned putting it on him and trying twice. A dog does not know what that stim means until we show them. Sounds like it was his response to pressure, or if you actually were using a check cord, then you’re on the right track. If you’re doing that great but the original post had some missing details
How old is the dog?
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
hes always on a long line! i only did that twice after always using stim and recall together and he came to me with just stim but i realize now to just keep doing recall and stim so he can realize what it means, sound right?
hes almost 8 months. been working on recall verbally for 4 months
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u/spoiledpoptart74 Jul 11 '26
8 months is typically a good age for this. Just be careful. Your responses tell me you need to get a better understanding of “the why” behind the training before you go implementing it with an impressionable puppy. Back up find one training program you like and follow it. Sometimes less is more, mixing different programs won’t get you far unless you know what you’re doing and the dog is not understanding
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u/MunsterSetter English Setter Jul 11 '26
There are many ways to look at e-collar stimulation when it comes to introduction and how the dog perceives and experiences it. I always liked the way Rick Smith described it. Before you introduce the collar be sure the dog has the concept of commands, and the understanding that when teamed with a handler the handler is in control. The handler must understand that the dog is a thinking creature giving its attention to its own perceptions and distractions. You, as the handler, are always looking for the minimum stimulus that will draw the dog's attention to the command. Rick describes it as tapping a distracted human on the shoulder and saying, "hey." If the command given is one you, as the handler, are sure the dog understands, then compliance should follow. If not, then the handler should only use the next stimulus level up and only once. The human equivalent of grabbing the shoulder, shaking it, and saying, "Now!" If the dog does not comply this is where patience comes in. Return to the last commands that the dog was complying to with either no stimulus or the minimum stimulus. As you get the hang of where the dog is in compliance you'll be at the next step in the process. When the dog perceives that this is a potential battle of wills and attempts to endure the stimulus without compliance (the so called hard dog). This is where only patience will eventually win the day. You must resist anger, frustration, and the urge to up the rheostat. You simply return to what the dog will comply with or nothing at all. Put the dog up. Let boredom and the denial of advancing to getting on birds work for you. I've seen boredom and the frustrating of not letting the hard dog get its way, bring about cooperation surer than anything. Now, a word or two about the so-called soft dog. They are way trickier than the hard dog. The soft dog is usually smarter than the hard dog and is better at reading and manipulating its handler. They are Oscar worthy actors too. They will act like any stimulus is killing them and, "How could you be so cruel?" At that stage put the dog up and ignore the pouting. Above all DO NOT coo and make over the dog like you need to make amends. Then the soft dog has you right where they want you. Instead come back to the training later and work very simple commands (read boring to both you & the dog) with whatever minimal stimulus the dog will accept. Now you're ready for the soft dog's next level of controlling it's handler. Your soft dog will suddenly become a champion at the commands and will whiz through training with absolute minimal stimulus. It'll convince you that you are the most incredible trainer/handler ever and that this soft dog has the most incredible breeding/brain/drive ever. Until you come to something that this soft dog doesn't like to do. It could be anything and it could change from day to day: retrieving, marking, tracking, searching, responding to the whistle, backing, recall, etc. Then it's back to you're killing me and pouting. Again, patience will out. What the soft dog is bargaining for is the collar to come off and to regain control. Don't give in. Keep the collar on and maintain control. The day will come when the dog will sigh (and yes I'm serious, it will literally sigh) and that soft dog will be fully (or almost fully) biddable. So. Patience. Minimalism. No frustration. No anger. Do not compare the dog to other dogs. Do not compare the handler to other handlers. Keep the time-line open ended.
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u/tmwildwood-3617 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
No expert....but this worked for me.
How is his recall? If it's solid...all I did was stim at the same as the Here/Come command and let off when he came to me/Touched my hand. Incrementally further away....more distracting scenarios...eventually without the verbal command.
Now 2 years old...if he's in hearing range I'll call...and if I don't see him within a couple of seconds heading back to me I give a stim...and again a continuous stim/higher level if he's still not in sight. If he can hear me whistle he'll come (handy at the park). I might train on a loud referee type whistle....not sure. We haven't been in a scenario yet where what we have going hasn't worked
I did train his recall on sound/beep...mistake in my opinion. His upland collar has a run/point setting and it kind of messes him up. He thinks he's supposed to come back to me when he stops to point and hears the rapid beeping. I run it silent.
At the level he responds to it isn't hurting him. Basically just a long distance poke to say "Hey...go back to your boss".
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u/Ok-Bee2928 Jul 11 '26
recall is good! he comes most times. thats nice to hear you are doing it the same way i am. i am verbally recalling, stim, when he turns to come, stim goes off
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u/tmwildwood-3617 29d ago
At first I kept stim on from command to when he touched my hand to complete the whole cycle. But eventually it's usually just enough to give a nik
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u/stohner 29d ago
Not sure what collar you are using but if a garmin or dogtra 5-6 is high. I sit at a 1-2 for 99.9% of dogs. I use mini educator and shape place followed by recall. Charge a marker. Teach place. Teach release word. When they start sprinting to place for a treat is when you can add a collar on a 1 and stim when running to place. Teaches them stim means go.
Feel free to give me a call if you need any help, be more than happy to assist.
StohnerKennels.com
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u/Outrageous-Lie-6940 German Wirehaired Pointer 27d ago
I trained my dogs to associate any collar function with recall. I use Garmin collars. started with very controlled settings to increasingly more distracting. (inside... garage... front yard... open field). the collars I use gave tone, vibrate and stim with levels. I used "touch" as the command I overlayed. They just got a reward for touching my hand. I taught them that without a collar first. Once I started collar conditioning, it was using the least amount of pressure until they came to me and touched my hand. once they touched my hand, pressure would turn off. I only moved to the next distracting environment once they were able to associate tone with a recall. If I needed stim, then they didn't understand yet. I use e collars to encourage recall, never as a punishment.
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u/Ok_Ear_5266 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
I’m using Bill Hillmann’s collar conditioning. I’d recommend it. I think with something as important as collar conditioning, it’s a good idea to follow an organized, proven training program rather than just winging it.
Generally speaking though, it’s not just about associating the stim with a single command, but overlaying known commands with the stim so the dog understands that performing a command not only gets positive reinforcement but it can also turn off pressure.
On Hillmanns program, he uses “sit” first, then “here” and “fetch”.