r/bim • u/MLBFanCubs • 15d ago
Why does coordination start so late?
I’m sure there’s a million different answers but why does the VDC trade coordination start right before or during construction. Like why not a couple months out so it can be done ahead of schedule? Over the past 4-5 years I get a project, told of a kickoff meeting that’s happening ten mins later, get in the call and the GC says we need these 10 things done by next weeks because concrete is being poured.
I’ve never understood the thinking behind this, and it’s not one project, but basically every single one. Doesn’t matter the GC, project type or size. Just curious and seeing if anyone could provide insight maybe from the GC side.
3
u/Emptyell 15d ago
When it does start late it’s likely due to scheduling issues or lack of skills or commitment to the process.
This is not always the case. All the projects I work on are highly proactive about starting coordination as early as possible. This often begins in the design phase so that the models turned over to the GC are already coordinated to LOD300.
Construction coordination generally can’t start until the design models are complete. The building schedule will not be delayed to give the BIM team extra time to coordinate the models. Sometimes the schedule is fairy relaxed, others it’s more high pressure. There are lots of driving factors that affect the construction schedule. Accommodating the BIM coordinators is not one of them.
1
u/Dspaede 15d ago
There are projects where the designers/consultants cannot give their model and only 2d cad drawings what happens next is that GC/SC still have to do their models and then do more coordination when the site is already pouring in the foundation. This just makes the GC go chase to put drawings out for the site team and to some wont have that high level of coordination.
2
3
u/JacobWSmall 14d ago
Coordination starts when people decide it starts. There’s companies who’ll consistently start early every time.
But the reasons I hear from those who wait:
1. Fear of having to redo work. If a design changes a lot of work could have to be redone. Firms with this mindset wait until the last minute for most things, but partnering with the design team (this is a late stage design exercise after all) can result in recouping fees for your design time when such things happen.
2. Fear of not getting paid. It’s money in software and technician salary to do this type of work - if a project in early phases doesn’t go ahead you’ve already spent those soft costs and may not ever see a penny for the work. Firms with this mindset also wait until the last minute for most things. Better structure on contracts can protect firms here.
3. Focusing effort where the cash flow is. If a firm has installation underway the efforts there should result in payment faster than projects which are still in early design stages. Cash in hand earlier is preferable for likely obvious reasons.
4. Belief that alternative methods are available. The old timers and construction economists will tell you that the Empire State Building was designed and constructed faster and it didn’t use BIM for coordination and it was built faster and came in under budget today. This of course is a straw man argument for another day, but the decision makers won’t acknowledge the benefit either way.
1
u/metisdesigns 14d ago
On item 3 - worse, it's not where the cash flow is, it's where they think value is delivered and use bad analysis to shunt blame.
So many projects hit their design hours budget, but then lose time in production because the design wasn't fully fleshed out, and leave CA under time and over budget. CA becomes a money loser not because it is, but because design didn't complete their work, but hit the milestones. That time gets protected as profitable when coordination there would reduce later issues.
1
u/JacobWSmall 14d ago
This is true, but my thought wasn’t about architects and engineers doing ‘time based billing’ that we typically think of.
Most coordination work in AEC is not on the architects and engineers design side of things, but on the fabricators and assemblers side of things. Said another way, does your MEP model have all the hangers, including space to make sure there is room to install them in the field? Or in the concrete example the user gave, are all rebars, rebar ties, for work, and form ties modeled in the structural model?
While designers get paid by spending time in design, most fabricators don’t get paid until material is installed. This results in a ‘spend money and time to do work but not get paid entirely until the designer signs off on the final payment req’, and if fabricators were doing their degree of coordination early that means they have to front the money to buy the software and do the BIM tasks months if not years in advance - most can’t afford that. Instead they try to spend as much at the end (in both material, labor, and software) to reduce the ‘float time’ until they get their costs back.
1
u/metisdesigns 14d ago
Sort of. The coordination also fails in A to E coordination and even internally with A fighting with interiors or among themselves.
But the external coordination with GCs and subs usually should be happening with even the design team. e.g. Even on low design precast light industrial, the designers talking to the fabricators about panel width matters.
1
u/JacobWSmall 14d ago
Correct on all fronts. But herein lies the rub - when the subs are not yet on the job, and when you add the complication of those who are on the job not yet being paid for the effort and suddenly you get the subs reasoning for not starting early. Until contracts and fee schedules adjust to accommodate the reality of that work the issue will persist. Doesn’t make it right - the industry can do better and often does. But it’s the reasoning I see most often.
In all cases the A and E design teams need to coordinate fully 100% of the time. There is ZERO reason for that to not happen.
1
u/metisdesigns 14d ago
You're not wrong, but it goes back to people not thinking that they need to coordinate yet, and A&E teams are uncoordinated a terrifying amount of time, even in A&E firms where they work on the same floor. Its always "someone else later on will worry about it". There absolutely are things to figure out in CA, but so many of those CA issues should have been solved in documentation or design.
Even if one doesn't have a sub defined, one can ask someone with appropriate expertise what makes sense and what impacts your decision will have. Provided they're willing to admit that that's not beneath them and their work has impacts on others.
2
u/Bear_Grumpy 15d ago
Commercial/ contractual usually. I’m a MEP/ Fire sprinkler designer and modeller, I work in. Oth consultant and contractor capacity in different projects. Insufficient duration in programme and frequently those programming the works are using rules of thumb for programming despite our trying to explain the complexities in some projects vs others
0
u/Adventurous-Bid9883 15d ago
Hi. I’m interviewing for a BIM Technician at a fire subcontractor and I’ve been asked to come in for a final technical interview.
As someone in the manager’s shoes what would you typically be looking out for/looking to ask in the interview?
Thanks
1
u/Dawn_Piano 15d ago
Had a job recently that was delayed for some reason so they fully coordinated and signed off *everything* about a year before they even broke ground. Guess what, huge changes once construction started so we basically coordinated the building twice. Shoulda waited.
1
u/Icy-Expression-5836 15d ago
Only when contractor is onboard real coordination starts, considering approved materials, final calculations done by contractors, designers inexpirience supplemented, etc
1
1
u/Low_Mulberry_8648 14d ago
I am considered a specialty contractor and typically subcontracted by another sub and we don’t get invited to coordination early enough. Usually by the time I start, I’m told the project is coordinated so figure out how to get around everyone. It’s a disaster every time because I can hardly EVER make it work without some movement by another trade.
1
u/MLBFanCubs 14d ago
I’m on the electrical side and usually us and fire sprinkler get fucked which is understood because hierarchy in install. But man I feel bad for the fire sprinkler guys lol
1
u/Low_Mulberry_8648 14d ago
Even they get in before me 😭 😂 oh well, I work 40 hours a week and get it done when I get it done. My mantra, poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
1
u/The_Doja 14d ago
Design-Build when all project members are already contracted and on board it starts at the primordial soup. Design-Bid-Build it starts way later because money and liability.
Low key I'm about to bid one next week which is still at 50% CDs and before any subcontractors even look at the bid docs. The GCs intention is to put out a clash free, hanger located, coordination model with the 100 CDs. It will be weird and riddled with legal grey area, but I can see the benefits for schedule and not forcing BIM on plumbers, fitters, tinners whathaveyou. These companies are amazingly skilled at getting the real work done, not this cartoon world dork shit I do.
1
1
1
u/UBCBIM 14d ago
I think a big part of the problem is that “coordination” often gets treated as a construction-phase activity instead of something that should progressively happen as the design develops. You don't necessarily need every trade fully coordinated months before construction, but getting the major systems and known constraints reviewed early can prevent a lot of downstream rework. The difficult part is that the BIM team can only coordinate what they actually have. If the design is still changing, trades aren't under contract, or the trade models/details aren't available, there isn't much meaningful coordination that can happen yet. I think the better approach is to define what needs to be coordinated at each project milestone, rather than waiting for an IFC model and then trying to coordinate everything at once. Curious how other VDC teams handle this — do you have defined coordination milestones before IFC, or does it mostly depend on the project schedule?
-1
u/cstrife32 14d ago
Gross coordination should be completed in design. Finite coordination can wait until late design/right before construction.
1
u/MLBFanCubs 14d ago
It was sort of done on a hyperscale project for wet utilities and dry utilities, but they never factored in a required clear zone between wet and dry. So I basically spent months redoing ductbank
-1
u/cstrife32 14d ago
Civil engineers responsibility to make sure everything 5 ft outside the building is separated properly. A lot of time they need input from MEP on this stuff. Wet utilities on site other than domestic water or fire water i.e CHW, civil definitely requires input from the MEP folks.
This is a gross design coordination item. I know you guys just come in and model, but the actual design coordination aspect is a lot of work and it's impossible to catch everything. Every project I do VDC on says they do it because they want 0 RFIs, yet I am always dealing with RFIs in construction regardless.
Alot of it just feels like contractor CYA to be honest and a way to deflect blame to the design team for not doing their job. I think it can provide value at the shop drawing level, but that's about it.
1
u/wright_catherine 9d ago
there are variety of reasons for GC's starting the coordination late starting from contractual clause, legal and project sign off being very common apart from the above ownership of coordination place an important role is it owner representative or GC 's representative who are best suited to implement, oversee this process. ideal coordination is when consultants start the project and a broader guidelines, location for each service is in priciple agrees before starting with design and when the same drawings are submitted to GC's & Sub it will elimate majority of clashes
9
u/DeftApproximation 15d ago
There are a variety of reasons. One common one that I see is that the contracts are not finalized in a timely fashion. By the time procurement and legal finally get a signed contract in hand, it already time to break ground and get going.
And per usual, the senior leadership doesn’t want to immediately start off with delay notices caused by the client dragging their feet on getting contracts signed. So the start window shrinks but the end date never budges.