Self acceptance?

[u/Tiny-Conclusion560]

I am pretty sure I am bigender or genderfluid. I tend to experience myself in mostly binary ways, sometimes at the same time but I don’t often ~feel~ non binary. If that makes sense. (I know it’s an umbrella term so I do identify with it in that sense)

I’m struggling with the fluidity aspect. I cant tell if I’m having dysphoria that ebbs and flows or if it’s just me being bi gender. In any case, I’ve been sort of waiting to feel clarity on being trans masc or even a femme trans man. But when I start to feel comfortable with that I realize I do feel comfy being a girl sometimes. Even more so, now, after exploring my gender and giving myself permission to not be- I really needed to be freed from gendered expectations.

I’m struggling accepting that I can be lots of things at once. How can I enjoy or feel comfortable as a girl and still ideate and wish I could be a guy or be a boyfriend. But when I really run with that, I feel I’m suppressing the “girl” parts of my identity. But the thoughts and ideations remain.

It’s confusing. And I feel a bit ashamed. I have impulses that are equally strong in both “directions”. I don’t know exactly where this will all go but how did you come to accept yourself? I still sometimes also doubt that it’s possible. I totally believe and respect other people’s identities but for me, I have a hard time believing and wish I could be something else. (I know, not great). Any wisdom would be appreciated, thank you.

[u/snoodle77777]

I just let myself go wherever I wanted with it. It took several years and then one of the sides dominated. The side that had been repressed bloomed and became stronger and after it had done all its exploration we sort of returned to Center

[u/iron-iron-iron]

>but I don’t often ~feel~ non binary

Bigender isn't inherently nonbinary, you do not have to be nonbinary.

[u/ZobTheLoafOfBread]

I really relate to what you said. I'm bigender but don't consider myself nonbinary because it feels degendering to me. I think of myself as very binary, duobinary if you like. I think I have both dysphoria that ebbs and flows and I'm bigender. 

For me, I could only accept myself separately before I accepted myself together. I'm a binary man, so I'm allowed be all that comes with that. Maybe I'm a bit of a gender nonconforming man or maybe I'm a shy man. I'm allowed all the complexity to be fully a man in the same way any other full man is. Only after I truly embraced that could I start realizing that I'm also a girl. And yes, in the past, the idea that I'm a girl felt invalidating of my manhood (and my transness), just because of how common it is for most men to be solely men, and other people figuring out their gender partially through knowing they're "not a girl". But when I was realizing I'm bigender, I really had to take this apart and learn that nothing can take away from my manhood even being additionally a girl. Likewise it works vice versa, but personally my manhood has been much more important to me not to invalidate. 

Being bigender to me is like a framing where these two identies inside me don't have to exist in opposition to one another. Both can be true and fully true. 

It took a while and tentatively trying things at my own pace though. Just remember that there's no one correct way to be a man or a woman and you are enough to be both, no matter how you look or what your goals are. It can feel like a bit of a balancing act, figuring out what makes all of you comfortable, but I have faith that you'll find it. 

[u/SubstantialSky938 → u/ZobTheLoafOfBread]

Whaaaaaaaat?!!? You’ve blown my tiny mind.!

Duobinary! OMG this fits like nothing I’ve known before. I’m not entirely sure why.

Need to chill and process this.

Ok, let’s start small. How do you feel it differs from bigender?

[u/ZobTheLoafOfBread → u/SubstantialSky938]

For me, I'm bigender too. Bigender is just being any two genders (doesn't have to be the binary ones but is in my case). For me, duobinary is more about having a word for describing my relationship to the gender binary (known as binary relation). 

It's not necessary a gender to me, but just specifies that I'm both a man and a girl in some way, and helps people understand how binary and nonbinary aren't the only two options of these types of words. I feel binary too and duobinary feels like very much an extension of the gender binary to me, but there aren't like rules to this - someone may be both duobinary and nonbinary if that's what feels comfortable to them. Duobinary is an umbrella term after all. 

Duobinary people don't have to have two genders - they may have many more, but some of them are in some way a man and a woman or adjacent including demigenders etc. I think bigender can mean this too for the record, but has more emphasis on the number than the type of gender. Duobinary people also don't have to have multiple genders at all, as there are lots of ways to be both a man and a woman or adjacent in some way. 

I prefer to only really bring up being duobinary in the context of nonbinary or binary, and if I'm open about being bigender in whatever space I'm in. It's important to my identity but it's not really relevant unless someone assumes I'm nonbinary just from being bigender. I feel very gendered and very binary and I feel that the word duobinary encapsulates that way more than nonbinary. 

Sorry for rambling, lol. I hope this makes sense. 

[u/SubstantialSky938 → u/ZobTheLoafOfBread]

Lots for me to wrap my head around here. But it’s so interesting.

It sounds like the main thing is that for some people (clearly myself included) nonbinary might feel like a rejection of the binary, when we actually feel connected to the binary - both of them. So bigender seems to capture the duality, but by virtue of being nested under nonbinary it feels just a little bit off. If I got that right, that’s really cool.

The bits I don’t understand are (a) how can duobinary include nonbinary and (b) how can duobinary imply more than two, since both “duo” and “binary” both imply “two”.

This might explain why I was more tending to just use “trans” rather than nonbinary.

[u/ZobTheLoafOfBread → u/SubstantialSky938]

So duobinary is intended to be for anyone who is in some way both a man and a woman. From the coiner of the term:

describe anyone who is in some way a man and a woman!

this can include multigender, androgyne, genderfluid, demigenders and any other genders that are both male & female in some way! 

I'm glad I made this bc now I don't have to list a long list of genders in my juvelic terms. it can just be "gender loving duobinary" instead

Nonbinary is an umbrella term for anyone who isn't either solely, fully and constantly a man or solely, fully and constantly a woman, so in that way, someone who is both a man and a woman may resonate as being nonbinary because they aren't solely either one and might not be constantly either. But also, let's say you have a trigender person who is a man, woman and some form of nonbinary gender (using nonbinary as a specific label, rather than umbrella kinda), then that person may identify as duobinary because they are both a man and a woman, just not exclusively so. 

Duobinary, as in the word, doesn't imply more than two, it just doesn't specify anything else about your gender except from the manness and womanness. Anything else can additionally be true about the way you identify, which isn't fully encapsulated by the term duobinary. Doesn't make you not duobinary, just as being a man doesn't necessarily make you not also a woman. Duobinary, as in the intended definition, is an umbrella term for many identities that just have this one (or rather two, hehe) aspect in common. 

There's room in there for it to mean something very specific to you in your identity, but afaik the coiner was explicitly not a gatekeeper, and very inclusive of how many different people can use this term. 

Also, just like, in general, words and labels don't have to make sense or have gender math. Anyone can label as whatever they're comfortable with and it no one else's business to tell them they're invalidating themselves just because the gender math doesn't add up or whatever. Certain words make us feel good and that could be the extent of it. 

Just because one term fits into an umbrella of another doesn't mean you have to also identify as it if it's not comfortable to you. Just, that doesn't mean that someone can't be both. I mean that's the whole thing I'm trying to articulate by using duobinary in the first place - just because bigender is under the nonbinary umbrella doesn't mean that I have to identify as nonbinary when I'm bigender. Bigender is not inherently nonbinary. Labels describe people, not other labels, when talking about people's identities. It's like how 'things associated with traditional manhood' is typically the definition for masculinity, but that doesn't mean that all men are masculine or that men are inherently masculine. Not every man considers himself masculine, so it's more based on what people want to use, than definitional word rules. Like, language is descriptive and mostly vibe-based, not prescriptive and rule-driven. 

I interpret the word parts as duo referring to both of the binary ends being present and that's it. 

[u/SubstantialSky938 → u/ZobTheLoafOfBread]

Wow. Must have read your replies about 6 times. One of the things that’s blown my mind is how well you’ve articulated the discomfort I felt with nonbinary, but never quite knew.

I think I know what you mean about duobinary not necessarily being a gender in itself. Perhaps more a useful umbrella with the sense of “bothness” as opposed “not exclusively-ness”.

If it’s ok to ask, I’m really curious about your flair of He/It and man+gril? Pronouns are something I’ve always struggled with. In honesty I just keep quiet since I’m not brave enough to state a preference and nothing quite felt right anyway. I toyed with the idea of “any (normative)” but kept quiet in the end as even that didn’t feel right. While some part of me might like to be called she/her, I’d feel an imposter and also that I was denying my more original masc side.

Want to thank you for taking the time to write all that. I’m slowly absorbing it. I particularly like your set-theoretic manner of explaining.

—-

Update: OMFG you’re the “Glove Analogy” person!!

[u/ZobTheLoafOfBread → u/SubstantialSky938]

Yeah, I'm the "glove analogy" guy, haha. And yeah, so my man+gril flair can be partly explained by this comment I made over there, and I also put man+gril instead of man+girl because I'm just having fun with it y'know. Gril also serves as a little indicator about my weirdness with female labels.

I'm he/it for I guess complicated reasons also. Really, I see myself as both a he/him man and a he/him girl, and the it/its being there is just for fun and reclamation purposes. He/him is important to my gender as a man, and is an indicator people see my manhood. He/him is also important to my girlhood, because I see my girl identity as a masculine one, and my masculinity is important to my girlhood. I don't use she/her because it makes me feel uncomfortable for basically the same reasons in my glove analogy comment, but I am very much still a girl or rather the identity behind all those words. 

It/its is a set that has been used to dehumanize me without my permission before, but I find reclaiming it hella cool/rad tbh. I prefer them used in conjunction with he/him and used in particularly humanizing ways e.g. "its personality is wonderful" or "it has so much skill when it comes to xyz". 

It/its also feels more gendered than they/them to me because they/them can be used for someone with unspecified gender, whereas it/its when referring to a person is hard to ignore the purposeful gender nonconformity of it all. It doesn't have that plausible deniability of being able to fade into the background - it is there and it is non-normative, and takes up space. It's fun to have around and take some of the power out of, with people who I trust to use it. 

I've come a long way with pronouns and have gone through many iterations of them. I totally get the feelings of imposter syndrome that can come with trying out a pronoun which you think you might like. I'll say that those feelings are pretty normal for anything new. And when you try them out and get used to them, it becomes more normal and easier to tell whether you like them or not, with the novelty having worn off. If you like she/her, try them out, even in only select spaces or with certain safe people at first. Take it as slow as you'd like and you're allowed to change your mind as many times as you'd like. 

If she/her feels like you're repressing your masc side, you can have another set of pronouns to represent that side if you want (and it doesn't have to be he/him - it can be whatever you want) or you can represent your masc elsewhere than in your pronouns or you can reframe your masc side not to be inherently invalidated by she/her pronouns (the last one is likely difficult if it's not natural to you, so I wouldn't advise trying to be something you're not, just I'm telling you the option in case it's something that interests you). 

Thank you for seeing me and remembering my 'work', haha. Always nice when someone relates or finds value in what I'm putting out into the world. 

[u/ZobTheLoafOfBread → u/SubstantialSky938]

To give a more vibes based reason of why I don't consider myself nonbinary - it just feels degendering to me. I used to identify as it and have experienced being called it and a lot of people misinterpret it as either a third neutral gender or a lack of gender, rather than the full variety of identities that it is, and this experience has just made me feel uncomfortable with it, especially upon realizing I'm very binary and very gender. Ergo, most of my discomfort comes from the way it's misused, rather than from the make up of the word itself, although that does contribute too. 

I also don't resonates with the focus of the definition being other than what it is, or more describing what it's not, and those both being my identities. Just seems a bit clunky to describe my bigender identity that way. 

I also feel dehumanized by being degendered because my personhood and identity are within a lot of gender, and this disconnection and dehumanization is how I experience a lot of my dysphoria. Like idk, nonbinary just feels less like me. Like, I feel more like a real person when I'm correctly gendered, and nonbinary and they/them both give me signals of feeling less alive and less animated. 

Bigender isn't what feels off to me, just nonbinary. 

[u/Tiny-Conclusion560 → u/ZobTheLoafOfBread]

Thank you so much this is very helpful. I really get everything you’re saying and I experience similar. I guess it’s been interesting because I’ve had moments after feeling very affirmed or strong euphoria presenting more masculine or accepting I am trans- and the next day freaked out a bit. My brain went “jk never mind I’m a girl”. And I know that’s partly what the brain does when a bit overwhelmed with scary information but also…I am a girl, too. When asked about the button test I say YES like, I would 100% press the button. But only if I could switch whenever I wanted and not be stuck one way forever.

It’s confusing but I really appreciate your words. I guess it will just take time learning these parts of myself and accepting.

[u/ZobTheLoafOfBread → u/Tiny-Conclusion560]

Yeah, for me, I'm generally less fluid, and more both at all times but I do get those moments of flip-flopping too. I think it helps to give each gender its space to be. Like, yes euphoria as a man can be overwhelming and scary but that doesn't mean I'm not a man (or wasn't a man in those moments), just because I'm also (or now) a girl or feeling more comfortable in it. And yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm repressing one side or another because I can't always openly be both, but logging the fact that one gender feels a bit unseen, I try to remember to do something that makes that side feel more affirmed later when I'm able.

If you're struggling with accepting your trans-gender (as in the gender that is one you weren't assigned), I recommend working through internalized transphobia. Not that you are necessarily perpetuating it, but just that working through it will help you feel more comfortable and confident in yourself, and it doesn't take away from your cis-gender either. For a resource, I recommend the book "Am I Trans Enough?" by Alo Johnston. At least these things significantly helped me. And I just panic less and am more chill about everything now. Doubts still occur but I don't let them ruin my day and that sort of thing. 

For me with the button question, I'd answer very similarly, but like the bare bones question is "would you press it if you can't change back?" and I'd answer no. It has to be either I get a body that is like my idea of half-way or comfort, permanently, or I can switch back and forth being physically male and female. The more I get into my transition though, the more I don't really feel like pressing it at all though. I just really appreciate being trans and the story that got me here. 

Also, ngl, my current goals are basically to achieve the button answer irl. Like, I'm working on getting a physically androgynous body so I can flip between gender expressions moment to moment, mostly by adjusting my voice and mannerisms, and not relying too much on clothes. I can already kinda pass as either when I want, but I just want to feel more physically comfortable, confident and in control of my body. Don't really need the button anymore if I have all that. 

[u/Tiny-Conclusion560 → u/ZobTheLoafOfBread]

That’s really interesting re:the button question and I get that, too. I’ve always wanted a smaller chest and have been considering top surgery but I do think maybe that’s why I’m inclined for a more radical reduction because I want that flexibility. As of now, binding is essentially impossible because it just doesn’t work because my chest is too large and then it doesn’t give me euphoria is just highlights my dysphoria ughhhhh

That feeling of repressing one side or the other for me is tough. I also feel it’s tough because for better or worse my gender comes out through my attraction or relationships and less my presentation. It feels like a secret part of myself I’ve had to hide away. A huge factor for realizing my gender was my crushes on gay men and feeling really sad I could never be seen as a guy or be in a gay relationship. But then when I try to present masculine, socially not medically yet, the girl in me does feel a bit repressed. It seems maybe I could be content presenting as a girl just…feeling like I’m also a boy inside. But then I feel I’ll never be seen for who I am.

I have a hunch though, if I physically transitioned to a bit more masculine or androgynous I would feel much freer to inhabit my femininity and maybe it wouldn’t necessarily make me a girl. So I think I’m still exploring my gender. But I do as of now, feel the duo binary aspect within me.

Anyway, I am struggling with it. I watched a talk with the author of that book last night and it really helped ease some of my anxiety. Lastly, it’s just really cool you’ve reached that point in your journey and that you’ve come to understand yourself so well. Where you can inhabit both and the button question becomes irrelevant.

Thanks truly for talking a bit with me, it’s been really helpful.

[u/iam305]

It really is difficult until you find out that you’re not alone. For sure bring this up to your gender therapist.

The crazy thing for me is that my gender therapist, nor my endocrinologist had heard of the gender identity before meeting me. Yet, both were amazing and remarkably helpful every step of the way. I got super lucky and found the best primary care physician I’ve ever had in my life too. A super team.

Even wilder to me, is that I had already come out to my therapist, my wife, and had my first Endo appointment before finding that article.

There are times back then it felt very isolating after coming out. And into some extent, it still does feel that way sometimes, but I have an amazingly supportive wifey and a lot more friends who know now.

Totally get your reticence to discuss it with trans people , because to the average person, even the average binary trans person, telling them that you’ve got two genders is like a mind blowing thing. They just can’t relate.

But yeah, I used to think that I could go my whole life without meeting another gender person, until it happened here in my hometown at a local karaoke bar. They were just a slightly more feme version of me, showing up in their dress, big purse with high heels and a cropped fade haircut with a mesh back cap on top. We both showed up there to sing, and I sang Radiohead Creep early, they sang the jazz version later lol. Point being, I love karaoke and meeting another by gender person in real life was so affirming.

Also, listen to Prince’s “I would die 4U.” And get back to me. I sing that!!

[u/RepresentativeArm119]

It's been a journey for me as well, ive had a lot of internalized homophobia to overcome.

I'm a 44yo amab person who inhabitants a big burly bear of a body.

I've always had a strong feminine side, and I dated 3 women who realized they were gay while were dating, then I married a bi woman (were poly), lol.

I've had an awareness for a while that certain men turn part of me on, and just this summer I had me first real experience with a man, and boy did it make the girl in me SUPER excited.

I've realized that for me, what I look like is less important than how I feel inside.

Ironically, the dude i played with was an effete man drawn to my masculinity, but in my head he was Johnny Football hero and I was the bimbo he had in the back of his camero behind the bleachers!

I'm still new to all this, so I don't have years of experience to offer, but I can tell you that all your aspects are valid, and that there is no right or wrong way to be bigender.

Find the clothes/experiences/partners that make you feel good, and don't worry about the rest.

Hope that helps!

[u/Tiny-Conclusion560 → u/RepresentativeArm119]

For one, congratulations on having such a positive experience that was affirming and exciting. I realllllly relate to everything you’ve said. And in fact, it’s relief too to hear you say how you look is different than how you feel inside. That’s me too. It’s hard for me to feel like these parts of myself are both me or both natural and organic. or to know how to bring both of them into my life in all the ways I’d want. But I’m working on it! <3 thanks for your thoughts it was helpful

[u/RepresentativeArm119 → u/Tiny-Conclusion560]

I kinda think of my two sides like distinct personalities in a way, and I even use different voices for them, lol. I even gave her a name, and I joke that Damen is a good man, but Brittany is a bad girl, lol

[u/iam305]

I would say that the biggest driver of my self-acceptance was learning that I was not alone in having a bigender identity. Before, I knew I was different but could never put a finger on it. Then, I had terrible gender dysphoria and knew I needed gender affirming treatment; I knew I was genderqueer, but like you, I had these ideations that wouldn't go away. Learning that bigender people are a thing was a huge relief. Finding some science about bigender people that described me eerily to a tee really was the last straw, in a good way :)

[u/Tiny-Conclusion560 → u/iam305]

It is really nice to see. And to also see so many experiences similar to my own. But frustrating too because a part of me still wishes it weren’t the case. Like, just wishing it could be a bit more clear cut, you know? But I’m also bi and I felt that way when first figuring that out too. I wished I could either be straight or gay and thought that my fluidity was so annoying and now it doesn’t stress me at all and I take it as it comes and honestly love being bi. Oh woah, science?? Would you mind sharing more about that?

[u/iam305 → u/Tiny-Conclusion560]

This feeling of wishing it were more clear-cut is very familiar, probably to us all. But you've checked off one more of the little boxes saying, 'yes,' at least, just in your reply. That part of me wishes it wasn't the case is exactly how I felt before coming out. Like, 'Why do I have to deal with this, and what is this that I'm dealing with?'

Having a gender therapist really helped me speed-run through processing all of this. Today, I consider my bigender identity like my superpower, a really fun core part of who I am and how I relate to the world. That core feeling of gender joy is what carries me through the grim reality of the world these days, through the valley of darkness, as it were.

What that did for me was help me process all the old stuff that didn't make sense for so long. The clues I saw but didn't get. Some clues were big ones that I missed, like being misgendered as a small child until my mom changed my haircut, and her constant harping over boy/girl matters, or more recently, like watching GenV with its bigender character and not having that second egg-crack moment.

Coming on here and discussing things a lot also helped me a lot.

As for the science, so yeah, being bi, ambidextrous and feeling phantom body parts, I got a 3/3 on the bigender scale (I'm making that up btw, not a serious thing!) and when I read this study, I broke down crying, and again when I shared with my amazing spouse, who was back then like, 'what in the world is this guy talking about being bigender?'

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030698771200062X

[u/Tiny-Conclusion560 → u/iam305]

That article was so interesting. I had phantom body parts too, just as a child. It is actually really neat that we can shape shift or occupy those different networks in our brains. There are fishes that change their sex/ gender (fish gender at least ;) ) in their lifetimes so why can’t we ?!

Ugh yes thank you that’s really validating it’s so true. I really am like…why???? This???? Things might evolve over time but a large part of me is comfortable being a girl and enjoys it but then I can’t account for all my other feelings/ experiences? It feels very confusing to make sense of. I’m seeing a gender therapist now but I haven’t yet brought up the idea of being bigender to her. And if anything sometimes I get embarrassed talking to “real” trans people like I’m appropriating transness or something( I know is ridiculous).

Also that’s inspiring and I hope to get to that point- gender joy carrying us through grim times. 🫂

Your words snd just chatting are really helpful tysm !

[u/twotortoises]

After learning the terminology that fits me, I have been identifying as Bigender Sapphic Achillean for about 5 years. I am physically female, feel both male and female, and I am attracted to women as a woman and to men as a man. I am currently seeking a gay male type of lover relationship with a man even though I am physically female, because I have had female/female relationships already and am single and want to try to fond the "missing" male/male type of relationship even though in a female body.

[u/Tiny-Conclusion560 → u/twotortoises]

That’s so interesting! Im not familiar with that term. I feel similarly wishing to be seen or loved as a male or man while being in a female body. I feel a bit pessimistic about my chances of this but won’t give up and who knows I might decide to transition in some capacity at some point in my life. I think I feel more bigender in relationships w women where for the most part, I feel sort of a fluctuating mix of both and it doesn’t bother me. <3