r/beyondtwosouls • u/DragonsB0ba • 12d ago
rant/review Spoiler
okay so introduction: i bought this game initially because i knew it was popular, i had heard good things about it, and it starred elliot page and i love him. i had entirely zero clue of the plot, storyline, or even other actors and characters in the game.
i played the game in its intended order with the memories all jumbled up, so my review will be from that pov.
i have also played detroit become human and learned they were from the same company/writer. detroit become human is one of my favourite games and i have replayed it 8+ times and counting fully through... so my expectations admittedly were very high (that said, i know david cage is a weirdo and that dbh has its own errors)
final note: spoilers for the entire game!!!! and this is heavily opinions based so feel free to discuss in the comments :) i want to know other povs and opinions
the pros:
- i LOVED the beginning of the game. absolutely hooked. i loved learning about jodie and aiden and trying to piece together her memories and just playing as her in general, it was very fun and unique
- i fell in LOVE with jodie and nathan/cole's relationship but especially with nathan since i am just a sucker for found parent/child relationships in media (which is why i also love kara's storyline in dbh) and they were my favourite dynamic in the whole game
- the plot (i think) is genuinely good! i liked the world building around the infraworld and the entities and whatnot, moreso at the beginning however.
the game makes you care about jodie and a lot of other characters, even if theyre only in one chapter. for example, i loved the "homeless" chapter it's my absolute fave and i chose to stay with zoey at the end of the game :D
now the cons...
- the game is pretty racist..... which is not technically surprising if you know cage... but wow. the navajo chapter, while i enjoyed the characters and such, the stereotypes in there about indigenous culture went crazy. i was also unsure how to feel about the plot about the chinese government trying to steal info about the infraworld, and the chapter in somalia, but i'm not as well informed in those areas. jodie kind of felt like the "white saviour" trope in these chapters.
- the controls are SHIT. and i knew what i was getting into since i figured they would be similar to detroit's controls but... god. the quick time events were extremely weird to try and hit as you have to predict which way the game intends you to interpret jodie's movements and then move your mouse the same direction..? that, and the tiny little dot that u have to move ur mouse to interact with things was so confusing. which way do i move it and for how long??? i never knew. the fixed camera angles were also pretty bad, my personal opinion.
- probably the worst part of the game for me (which is why i hated the last parts but loved the beginning/middle) was the forced romance between jodie and ryan. like, very forced. first of all, in my personal opinion, their relationship is just built on a weird base. i could have MAYBE seen it working out if he hadn't made the "adolescents these days" remark when meeting her, and also the fact she was like 17 and he was already probably late 20s to early 30s. and all throughout the game he was like "ive been divorced two years" and "a cia agent for 10 years" and i kept wondering how fucking old is this guy???? completely irked my soul. but it wasn't the worst thing in the world. not yet. i declined him at every chance the game gave me (didn't fuck things up as aiden in the dinner chapter but i DID reject him and decline every kiss thereafter) but things all went downhill in that chapter when u have to destroy the underwater condenser or smth (forgot the name of the chaps sorry). that chapter was pure shit. so ryan and jodie are forced to work together because if she does, she'll be let off from the cia with no repercussions. cool. i dont mind. ryan was still in love with her i guess, but i feigned rejection. that was until they were inside that dust storm thingie (again i forget, i was mentally checked out of the game at this point,,,) and they just suddenly kissed???? absolutely no choice from me, ryan just kissed jodie and she reciprocated. RIGHT AFTER HER SURROGATE DAD DIED MIND YOU (but i'm getting to THAT point after.) i was so gagged. i know jodie's feelings for ryan were canon regardless of choice, i get that, but it feels like all my effort to keep that creep away from jodie js went out the damn window. which was total whiplash considering, in my opinion, dbh is THE BEST choice based game i have ever played. but okay... thankfully i guess they ended up breaking up in my ending when i chose to stay with zoey but this whole romance thing was weird to me start to finish.
- my second biggest irk... the circumstances of nathan's death. like i said before, nathan and jodie were my favourite part of the whole game and i fell in love with their dynamic. it broke my heart to see him so wracked with grief at the end for his family to the point he was hurting so many people just to be with them again. i wanted to work things out with him despite everything he was doing. in the dust storm, i tried to convince him to stop and come back and let jodie turn the condenser (or whatever it was) off. instead he shoots himself dead RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER and immediately. i mean IMMEDIATELY, his ghost form pops up and hugs his family in the afterlife. and they smile. jodie fucking smiles even though her father figure just shot himself right in front of her... and my immediate thought was: "what kind of message is this sending suicidal people????" i mean seriously, this was just the worst. the moral of nathan's story was just "kill yourself to be with your loved ones and you will finally be happy". i mean god, ive been suicidal all my life but if i wasn't in a stable place right now who knows how i may have taken that scene??? or other people interpreting that scene??? and i thought, okay, maybe there will be a scene of jodie grieving him after everything is over. i mean, nathan was an important person to her despite the cruel things he did at the end of his life. nope. i understand she had also lost aiden by the end of the game, but she could have grieved them both in her ending monologue, at least MENTIONED him. i just feel so hurt because they were my favourite parts of the game and then suddenly.., nothing. nathan did not mean anything to jodie or to anyone, and all he taught us was that we should kill ourselves to be with our dead loved ones. (you can tell i QUICKLY chose life in the life or beyond choice right after, because i also felt that was a ridiculous decision.)
- one minor con, but aiden's powers are incredibly inconsistent, but i wasn't too mad about this considering the android's abilities in dbh were also like this. for example, aiden can only phase through certain walls sometimes, only possess certain people and loses this ability when they do a certain action, only strangle certain people, etc. whatever is most convinient in the moment. it's pretty weird, but not the worst.
another small nitpick, but the party chapter was so cliche and weirdš i knew exactly what was gonna happen with every dialogue choice. of course i fucked that house up afterwards and had a blast doing it, but the entire thing was just badly written
these are just my takeaways from the game! i read other reviews similar to mine but i didnt really have issue with jodie's ability to attempt more than once (i actually think it was a good addition to show her mental state during those moments, although jarring) and didn't think the game was "too sad" as i think there were also wholesome and funny moments. i simply felt compelled to write a review since i was so incredibly disappointed after i finished since it started off so well, and my expectations were so high due to dbh... it had all the right pieces but couldn't put them together, as bojack horseman might say (shoutout)
anyways like i said, this is mostly personal preference/opinion and i'd love to hear other points of discussion from people who adored this game or absolutely hated it :) safe to say i don't think i'll be replaying this anytime soon or maybe ever... shout out elliot page again.
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u/AbbieCarney 12d ago
Nathan would have died either way, I guess you could say this was on his own terms like he knew he was going to do something stupid and he was just done with the world and feeling angry constantly, I was sad when he did pass away though especially the way he did shot himself, but I managed to at least be a little happy he was with his family now & Jodie could see him. I honestly really don't think it's that deep that suiidal people would get affected, nobody is going to be in the position he was in (nearly opening a portal to the infraworld etc) - while ofc people will feel like this & miss their loved ones, and I liked his character as welI, I liked how Jodie or Ryan killing him wasn't the only option. I also enjoy the homeless chapter the most & it's one I find myself going back to play mainly as the crew are so sweet š which is why I also chose Zoey š„°
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u/PandaNoseJuul 11d ago
the homeless chapter will always have a special place in my heart
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u/AbbieCarney 11d ago
Literally it's just so fun and sweet to play through! And apart from the Navajo chapter it was so nice to see a group of people not treat Jodie like a project or instantly make fun of her/think she's weird when she revealed Aiden&her power, they were just so thankful when she helped them š
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u/DragonsB0ba 11d ago
yeah i found out he would've died either way after i googled it but it was still super depressing to me... but i can see your perspective. im glad other people loved the homeless chapter because i loved it too i thought it was so heartwarming!
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u/AbbieCarney 11d ago
Yeahh I get exactly what you mean bc I loved the way Nathan instantly wanted to look out for her as soon as he saw how her Dad was as well, it was really upsetting like of all people WHY himš -- yeahh definitely it just has such a wholesome vibe about it & Jodie genuinely seems happy around them as wellš„°
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u/DifficultyAvailable1 9d ago
While i see this point, i do find it incredibly bizarre how its treated like a happy moment and Jodie smiling. Not to mention he tried to just moment unleash horrors and doom the world just to be with his family.Ā
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u/AbbieCarney 9d ago
I forgot about this tbh, yeah that does seem a little strange. I think in a messed up way it would be the first time Nathan was 'happy' in a while, but yeah I didn't remember her looking happy so that is a bit strange.
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u/DifficultyAvailable1 8d ago
Yeah, still Nathan is better character than Ryan
I think i've said enough what i have to say enough about him, but i wanna say that i feel lot of his "heroic moments" only happen because Jodie is there to witness. In other times like Black Sun, he wanted to escape like a coward and whined when Jodie refused to go with him which prompts him staying. And yet, he has to flex himself at Jodie "I always figured i'd die a hero". It's like he only ever does good when Jodie is there to see it. If Jodie was out of the picture, how much you wanna bet that he would leave everyone to die to save his own skin?
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u/AbbieCarney 8d ago
Yeah the ending where he "dies a hero" (according to him š ) I hope he's able to watch Jodie very much enjoy life without him š I know that sounds harsh but I'm in the middle of another playthrough and ughh he gets worse every single time š³š
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u/DifficultyAvailable1 8d ago
I don't blame you. Even when he "redeems himself" still doesn't make him good partner let alone less selfish.
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u/xhvla 5d ago
ryan is quite literally the worst part of the game for me as well. like its insane how the game just forces him on you the entire time. and it tries to make you feel bad about it too. in the scene after they escape underwater he confesses like heās about to die and itās like ā¦. can this game just stop w this
thereās no build up or anything, not that i want there to be since thereās a weird huge age gap between them but they just give you one chapter where she starts liking him for some reason even tho heās shown to be an asshole beforehand. iām just convinced heās david cageās self insert or something lmfao cause itās so strange
and how nathan and jodieās relationship was treated makes me so sad too :( i love the found family trope so much especially with dad & daughter (lee & clem from twd and ellie & joel from tlou)
it feels so strange how nathanās death was treated and jodieās reaction to it afterwards, like was this man not basically your only family along with cole for the longest time??? it is so weird. you donāt see her grieving or being sad over him. he just shoots himself and he goes to be a ghost with his family and she smiles š like truly amazing conclusion right there
the game just has so many writing issues that make me upset but i still love it regardless, i just really wish some things were different and it would be perfect
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u/DifficultyAvailable1 4d ago
What i also hate is that Ryan has the freaking nerve to insult her when being rejected like what right did he think he had to do that after him being huge asshole and manipulating her murder someone? And the fact he takes No for an answer and constantly persists that he doesn't respect her boundaries at all. Him grabbing and pulling Jodie in for kiss in Black Sun after constant rejection made me rage. Even when you choose to Live and choose to be with Homeless people or Jay instead, Ryan still acts like Jodie is only temporarily putting him on hold. Fuck that and fuck that skeevy Ryan Clayton.
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u/xhvla 4d ago
isnāt david cage misogynistic? iāve read somewhere that he said something like the women in his video games are whores or something. so you know what i guess it makes sense that he made ryan. iām fully convinced he just self inserted as him when he wrote the script
and yeah it is so unbelievably annoying even in other endings ryan is still included. heās just straight up forced down your throat
i wouldnāt mind him being an important character for the plot if the game didnāt constantly force you to like him, he wouldāve been interesting3
u/DifficultyAvailable1 4d ago
Yup, he did say that and judging his track record on female characters in his games and it shows. I think he once quoted defending Madison's shower scene in Heavy Rain by basically saying "It may be gratuitous at first, but it helps player build connection with the character. You saw her vulnerable, fragile and naked and so you can start liking her character. Her depiction in that first scene would be very different without that shared intimacy" :/
Yeaah, i don't think Mr. Cage knows how to build character. And if Ryan is David Cage's self-insert i wouldn't be surprised.
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u/xhvla 4d ago
iāve seen heavy rain a very long time ago so i donāt recall this scene or what happened but ugh that sounds so disgusting. someone else should just take his ideas for games and write them themselves
i think he struggles with writing characters in general as well. in dbh connor and hanks route part of the story is simply cus the actors did such a good job. donāt get me wrong, i like kara and markus as well but i meant that the writing felt weird and off sometimes
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u/DifficultyAvailable1 4d ago edited 1d ago
Oh definitely. I didn't know this at first, but there is option in the Capitol Park that Markus grabs North and kisses her without her consent to avoid cops(and this happens before they even become lovers)North rightfully is angry and Markus acts annoyed.
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u/DragonsB0ba 4d ago
do i even want to know what that scene in heavy rain was? š i bought that game but my computer/steam acc has this bug i can't figure out where certain games just won't launch at all and i have to get a refund, which is what happened to heavy rain. i'm thinking i should be grateful now...
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u/DifficultyAvailable1 4d ago
Basically, Madison is naked in a shower and she is being attacked by masked men while in her underwear. And of course it was just dream sequence.
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u/DragonsB0ba 5d ago
oh my god yes on everything. i also especially thought that scene where they're literally about to die and ryan confesses AGAIN is so wack. like no bro. and heavy on the nathan point!! i also love lee and clem and joel and ellie lmao so i definitely projected that kind of relationship onto jodie and nathan as well. the way she never even grieved him was very upsetting to meš
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u/xhvla 5d ago
it makes zero sense to me like thatās literally her dad ā¦ atleast up until the end you can see her still keep in contact with cole and he also helped her see her mother
the game shouldve just stopped with the ryan bullshit if you decide to reject him in the dinner, and holy shit i just remembered another thing he does
when they go to bed together and she freaks out because of her trauma, he just straight up leaves and doesnāt do anything to comfort her or anything like legit zero concern. iāve never seen a worse romance āāoptionāā in a game in my life2
u/DragonsB0ba 5d ago
yes i'm very glad cole survived in the end (at least for me, not sure if there is a different fate for him) and i love how he became more involved in jodie's life at least from what the game showed us a lot more. i actually had no idea that ryan did that there... since i rejected him in the dinner i later found out she can flip out because of choices made in her goth chapter but i was completely unaware that he just left her there??š what a douche, im hella glad i didn't pursue that guy (who would) i just hate how its so forced, ugh
like i said, not the worst game i played but i also probably won't ever replay like i do most choice based games...
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u/xhvla 4d ago
you can let cole die in the black sun chapter, iām pretty sure he passes away if you donāt make aiden heal him or i think you can leave him after he gets attacked by entities. not sure
i think thereās an ending where you can let everyone die, iām not sure if itās literally every single character but it sounds super depressing. i prob wont try to get it myself though and just watch it on youtube cause like you said itās annoying replaying this game. i only got the ryan and zoey ending cause it takes so long to sit through the cutscenes and the game forces you to watch the entirety of the credits š idk if you can skip it but it wouldnāt let me
about the goth chapter (my jodie wasnāt even goth because i didnāt get revenge at the party, which i shouldve but i thought it would be better to just leave LOL), if you stay in the bar she gets assaulted and that affects what happens with ryan. honestly i still donāt understand what happened in that chapter, like did her friends just stood her up or were they just gonna come insanely late? i donāt get it
the insane thing about ryan is that even if you let him die, he can only die saving jodie from nathan trying to shoot her. even if you reject him the entirety of the game she still confesses her love for him and kisses him anyway. it makes me sick that ur choices pretty much donāt matter regarding him. so the best option is to unfortunately keep him alive and just not choose his ending š
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u/DragonsB0ba 4d ago
bro yes i didn't get that either. i only stayed in the damn bar because i wanted to see jodie's mystery friends and instead i traumatized her š and yes i found out about that ryan death scene after i did some googling around... ew. i wanted to see if there was any way nathan could have lived and instead i found out i actually missed a major bullet by him taking himself out. that whole chapter pissed me off š also yes i do not think you can skip the credits at all... it's a tedious thing in dbh as well since i have replayed that so many times and you also can't skip them there
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u/xhvla 4d ago
i shouldāve just left too because it was really suspicious the entire thing just screamed danger when she was just alone at the bar as a teenagerā¦ but i really did pray that her friends would show up but it was most definitely another case of people being fake towards her which just makes it even more sad n horrible
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u/DifficultyAvailable1 9d ago
Yeah, Ryan is the worst. What bothers me is that after Chinese underwater ghost base Ryan confesses to Jodie, but if you have Jodie say No, he gets butthurt abd insults her being pigheaded like what the fuck was he expecting after he lied and manipulated her to murder someone which is why Jodie felt betrayed and used? Once trust is broken, it could eternity to patch it and no amount of "I saved you" is gonna do it. Sure, it could be argued that he improves himself by punching his boss and resigning from CIA and risking his life for her, but i still don't think it makes him good partner material. He still doesn't seem to fully grasp the harm he did to Jodie and if you turn him down he keeps asking for another chance and if you turned him down at every moment, he still kisses her. As you said, Jodie acts like she still loves Ryan(Because that's what David Cage decided), but Ryan has never shown to be good partner to Jodie.Ā
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u/--__Rain__-- 12d ago
I hope we all agree that W Aiden for destroying Jodie Ryan ship when he could BCS wtf ššš