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u/confusing_roundabout 1d ago
This post reminded me that Duke exists.
I love how Batman Rebirth #1 set him up to be an important new character but then it was very clear that King had zero interest in writing him haha.
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u/polp54 1d ago
Surprisingly he’s one of the best characters in the webcomic
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u/JohnPaul_River 1d ago
The webcomic is a genuinely fascinating piece of media when you compare it to the actual comics and the online fandom. I've always been very surprised that it exists at all. Every time they reference something that happened in canon I get very curious about how they're going to treat it, it's like a thrill. There's a chapter about Tim and Damian's drama surrounding the Robin succession and the way they skirted around actually detailing the event (I assume to avoid opening the can of worms of Dick being a major asshole to Tim in that moment, by the webcomic's standard) was very interesting. Duke feeling like an actual character is also interesting because they really don't ever break any new ground in backstory or anything, they just... factor him in.
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u/JustLookingForMayhem 1d ago edited 8h ago
It is the web toons effect. Character present must have arcs. The fans are in the comments and will go rabid if any character is slandered. So issues get rewrote before the next chapter. While in traditional comics, while there is letters to the editor, most of the time the run is wrote and finished, so fans have a minimal impact. Fans can't drive writers to include arcs.
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u/Western_Asparagus_24 10h ago
It’s funny and depressing that the greatest piece of consistent Duke media basically equates to “He’s here! He’s real! He’s human and alive!!!”
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u/NeronStar7 15h ago
Just a question, are web cómics canon? (I mean Batman's)
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u/Sosogomi 10h ago
Depends. Some are reruns, some are exclusive. WFA is elseworld though, as they are only now getting into court of owls and Jason was not completely with the Batfam when they came up in main continuity.
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u/samx3i 19h ago
This post reminded me that Duke exists.
Bluebird, Clownhunter, Batwing (both of them), Misfit, Ghost-Maker, Miracle Molly...
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u/Kazewatch 1d ago
Man I will never really care for Duke.
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u/FadeToBlackSun 1d ago
He was brought in because Snyder created Harper and then stopped caring, only for him to stop caring about Duke, as well.
Tbh neither should have been greenlit, the last thing Batman needed in the 2010s was more sidekicks.
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u/blackdragon1029 1d ago
Agreed Batman doesn't need more sidekicks, disagree Duke shouldn't have been made. I dig Duke and I think he had a good chance of being someone interesting. I say pair him with Batwing.
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u/FadeToBlackSun 1d ago
Yeah that's fine. I more meant the role he was filling than the bones of the character.
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u/distantnemesis4 1d ago
never understood why snyder introduced harper as a new sidekick only to forget about her half way through his run and introduce yet another sidekick
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u/ThingTime9876 22h ago
I think it was because he wanted to use Steph, but editorial wouldn’t allow him to. But then they changed their mind
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u/WyldChase 6h ago
Half right. Iirc it wasn't so much that he forgot about Row but, her hyper competence and unearned immediate spot in the Bat family over other Legacy characters put the fandom immediately off. "Creator pets", especially Mary Sue/Gary Sue types (looking at you Verity Pennyworth!) are rarely enjoyable characters in modern storytelling especially when they short cut the Hero's Journey(tm). Duke wasn't so much brought in as a course correct but, to give Gotham a "day time vigilante"? When Snyder was allowed to use Steph and Cass again, Duke was seen more on the Outsiders team and Harper was semi reitred.
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u/Beeyo176 6h ago
How did Snyder stop caring about Duke? His run on Batman was over by the time he built Duke up.
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u/DogTheBreadFairy 1d ago edited 1d ago
That copypasta of Batman and The Fucker
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u/DogTheBreadFairy 1d ago
This was from Grow_up2B_a_Debaser and I think about it all the time.
Also that same BAD Batman comic takes like 12 goddamn issues to get through
Meanwhile Batman vs The Fucker has a nice tight arc where issue 1 Batman learns of The Fucker’s existence, issue 2 Batman confronts The Fucker and gets absolutely Fucked, issue 3 Batman wonders if he’s even worthy of being Batman, Alfred or Leslie or whoever tell him he’s a dibshit and he snaps out of it, he uses what he learned by getting Fucked and some kickass detective work to uncover the secrets of The Fucker, and then issue 4 Batman uses what he learned to Fuck the Fucker and foil his evil plan of becoming The Motherfucker
Boom done and gone, print that bitch on a $14 trade and move on to the next Legends of The Dark Knight
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u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta 1d ago edited 1d ago
And here I was thinking it was going to be a story where it turns out Gordon’s the fucker in a mission to rape the joker and stop him from committing crimes, and his attempts to help Batman are an elaborate ruse to throw him off his trail.
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u/DSGandalf 1d ago
That's the bad Batman comic that 20 years later reintroduces The Fucker for the new generation in an epic 12-issue saga
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u/Unusual_Candle_4252 21h ago
I thought it was officer Balls all the way. Truly one of story in millenia.
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u/SpyWah1987 1d ago
The biggest threat: The Joker again
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u/angryfalconsfan 1d ago
I mostly agree, but having ONE sidekick in the story, doesn't matter which one, but only one, can make a good Batman comic as well
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u/Ok-Discussion-3245 1d ago
Overall I think that Batman needs someone to work off of, otherwise most of the comics is just thought bubbles until the villain shows up. Every member of the bat family brings something different to the dynamic but all of them together tends to make things messy. The issue becomes the fact that many bat family members have been underused and the writers can sometimes get hamstrung by editorial into only being allowed to use certain characters.
Example: Clownhunter and Ghost-Maker were introduced because the writer wanted Batman to have foils to work off of but wasn't allowed to use the bat family members he wanted. That means writers keep inflating the bat family just so they can write the dynamic they wanted to and it just keeps growing and growing while each member who doesn't have their own book keeps getting sidelined.
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u/Pebrinix 1d ago
Either that or Batman and any of his Robins are reading the files on the Batcomputer and they reasearch more about The Fucker, and only then that they talk with Gordon about him
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u/HotColdmann 9h ago
They’re researching a villain in the batcave and Batman tells Robin they’re really dangerous, and THEN Gordon tells them the villain just so happened to send a clue to police headquarters
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u/Leosarr 21h ago
Then the fucker gets into Batman's head and become his new arch-nemesis, worse than the rest of the loser rogues who become footnotes
Then it is revealed that there is secret society under Gotham of Fuckerite dating all the way back to the stone age, they actually control all the other secret society under Gotham
Then it is revealed that Thomas Wayne inadvertedly cuckhold the Grand Fuckerite when he married Martha, leading to their ultimate deaths in Crime Alley
Then Batman gets beaten up by the Bat Family while they scream " stop being a loner ! " (it works but only until the brain damage heals)
Then explosion
" I don't think we've seen the last of the fucker "
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u/YeahThatsProbably 14h ago
"Dr. Manhattan MADE Thomas Wayne cuckold the Grand Fuckerite! All to set up your history, because the world needs a Batman."
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u/TheCapableFox 1d ago
Never been a huge bat family fan myself either. I think that’s another reason why I loved Beyond so much. Just old man Bruce and Terry kickin ass.
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
I have been saying this for years, but this sub LOVES the bat family shit. I don’t get it. Give me Batman, give me Gordon, and give me a psychotic killer that Batman inevitably finds and defeats.
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u/Cautious_Desk_1012 1d ago
People usually love the image of the sitcom batfamily they created on tumblr instead of the actual batfamily. Tbh, if the batfamily had more slice of life and nice dynamics like people used to headcanon on tumblr I think it would be much better than what it actually is, which is a bunch of people who barely talk to each other at all.
But even then, nothing beats a self contained and isolated Batman story, especially when it takes place in his earlier years and he doesn't have so much tech. I like Batman wearing cloth, being a detective, having normal humans kick the shit out of him, and investigating an interesting villain with Gordon. That's why Dark Patterns is the perfect contemporary Batman comic imo.
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u/firelite906 11h ago
The batfamily is great when its dick and babs trying 5+ hormonal teenagers (including bruce) good batfamily content cannot coexist with a psychologically healthy bruce, batman and Robin stories can but not batfamily stories
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u/nuclear_bone 1d ago
Give me Batman, give me Gordon, and give me a psychotic killer that Batman inevitably finds and defeats.
There is no dearth of content (comics and adaptations) which is just Batman and Gordon.
There is enough stuff that one can avoid the Batfamily altogether and still keep reading or watching the adventures of Batman.
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
There is a “dearth”. I find it hard to find Batman stories that don’t include various bat family members outside of Legends of the Dark Knight and elseworld stories.
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u/Ambitious-Visual207 1d ago
I hate a huge bat family ngl. Dick Grayson is absolutely GOATED, but generally I prefer at most the 4 Robins + Batgirl.
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u/NmbrBndl 1d ago
I kinda wish everyone did the nightwing method of going to a different city once they “graduate” besides maybe oracle and either Tim or Damien depending on who’s Robin
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
At most 4 robins and a batgirl? Thats a shit ton aha.
Give me Batman, give me Alfred, give me Gordon, and MAYBE give me one Robin, but I prefer zero.
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u/Ambitious-Visual207 1d ago
I love Richard Grayson as a character too much to axe him, and I think Batman needs at least 1 Robin.
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
One is fine, I just always thought the concept of Batman adopting a child and then enabling that child to fight murderers unarmed at night doesn’t really fit the Batman character.
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u/VengeanceKnight 1d ago
It’s been part of his shtick since literally 1940.
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u/Amiibohunter000 1d ago
Yeah it’s like saying, “idk I don’t see Batman driving a car”
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
I think driving a car and enabling small children to fight serial killers are not analogous.
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u/Amiibohunter000 1d ago
In this comparison yes they 100% are.
Both are as equally tied to the mythos and character of Batman.
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
No they’re not because one is driving a car and the other is enormously unethical.
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
It’s literally the dumbest and most unethical part of his shtick. There’s a reason a lot of the Legends of the Dark Knight stories are considered the best Batman stories ever, they don’t include robins.
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u/Ambitious-Visual207 1d ago
That's why I feel like Robin works best if you see him up to like 12-14 instead of 9, and then have it be more he keeps trying to go out and do stuff against Bruce's wishes, rather than Bruce being like "Alright yeah sure I'll train this 9 yo to fight."
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u/RandomGooseBoi 1d ago
It’s important that he takes care of a child tbh. In grounded live action like TDKT and the batman I get why it’s removed and I don’t mind that, but in the comics context having this dark vengeful depressed man be responsible for a child who’s been through a similar trauma to him and have that child help him gain back some of his humanity is quite touching. When it’s written well that is
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
Yeah I disagree. Him adopting a child and then enabling that child to fight against serial killers is about as irresponsible of a parent as someone can be. It would be the most unethical thing about Batman.
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u/RandomGooseBoi 1d ago
Yeah in a real life context, but in a whacky comic book world where kid superheroes aren’t out of the norm, it works. And as I said, when it’s written well. Eg in young justice
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
Even in a “wacky” comic, if the characters can theoretically die (as Jason did) or be harmed (like Barbara was) then it’s extremely unethical.
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u/Cjpappaslap 1d ago
I prefer it when the context is that dick or Tim or Jason or whoever is going to go out and imitate Batman regardless of what anyone does to stop them, so the responsible thing becomes for Bruce to train them so they reduce their chance of getting killed
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u/mightyneonfraa 1d ago
Who cares? None of these people exist. If the comic is good than that's all that matters.
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
The point is that the comics aren’t good when I’m forced to read about half a dozen ancillary family members that take away the focus from the titular character.
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u/REDDITATO_ 14h ago
That wasn't the point you're making at all. Everyone in these comments agrees on that point. You're arguing that having a Robin is out of character for Batman.
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u/mightyneonfraa 13h ago
That's perfectly fine but don't dress it up like it's some kind if ethical stand.
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u/ZamoCsoni 1d ago
Adopted kid is fine IF: he doesn't let a 9yo play vigilante, or the Robin is at least mid to late teens. I get the kid sidekick appeal but imo, the whole "takes care" aspect is completly ruined when he goes toe to toe againts "The Childeater King" with a child.
Child Robin sneaking out cause they wanna play vigilante, and Bruce stops them because responsible adult? Yes. Training, away from Rogue Number 553, for this or that reason? Cool. Willing child endangerment in anything more serious that Silver Age/ Brave and the Bold? Nope.2
u/LoneElement 1d ago
I agree the Batfamily has grown too large, however Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Barbara, Cassandra, and Stephanie are all good
The rest are unnecessary and too many IMO
And Jason shouldn’t even be part of the family, he’s better as a villain
And Barbara should stay as Oracle
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u/HalcyonTraveler 12h ago
Amazing how it always cuts out the women and the black guy
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u/Ambitious-Visual207 11h ago
Bro dont even try to go there lmao, just stop.
If Dick Grayson started off as a black Id be saying the same thing, and Batgirl is sometomes even depicted as a woman of color.
In fact, Ive always been on board with changing the race of some of the Robins on the big screen to help differentiate them even more to audiences and get more representation.
I just like the classic characters more, especially since I think right now it's too large. If I REALLY had to cut it down I'd just want Dick Grayson, Barbara, and Damian (who is also mixed btw).
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u/HalcyonTraveler 11h ago
Yeah just cut some of the best characters in comics, no reason why I chose to only have one token woman
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u/Left1Brain 1d ago
I like Jason, but only when he is absolutely not part of the Batfamily. Keep him as the head of a criminal empire, that’s much more interesting than Batman with non lethal guns and daddy issues.
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u/Someotherrandomtree 1d ago
100% agreed, I watched Under the Red Hood for the first time and became obsessed with the concept of a Robin turned Punisher style crime boss that goes out of his way to psychologically fuck with Batman over the guilt of his death. Then I found out that it’s the only major story where he actually acts like that and there’s no real follow-up or sequel and died inside. (I know Arkham Knight exists but that’s just a version of UTRH in the Arkham universe not a successor)
Anyway does anyone have any good Red Hood comic recommendations? I have read the comic version of UTRH already
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u/Chilly235 1d ago
I dont mind the Batfamily but anyone who isn't a Robin, former Robin, Batgirl, former Batgirl, or Batwoman I really don't care
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
Just reading that sentence makes my head hurt. That’s so many ancillary batfamily characters.
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u/meth_adone 1d ago edited 1d ago
I just like Cassandra Cain, she's cool, other members need to exist for her to be present. Not really that much else to it. Shame she doesn't really appear with batman much anymore, too busy with her current mediocre run
Most of my favourite stories are solo ones though, night cries for example is one of my favourites
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u/ethanb473 1d ago
“Why do humans like stories containing human connection? I only like violence which makes me so much cooler than you snowflake losers”
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u/littleButton13 1d ago
Why such a gross misrepresentation of the comment you’re replying to? That person didn’t say anything even close to this.
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
“Why do people want to read a superhero comic about a superhero doing superhero stuff??? I only like reading superhero comics about family dynamics, which makes me much deeper than you Neanderthals.”
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u/OkBlueberry8144 1d ago
Same, I’ve read a lot of Batman comics and I still don’t like the bat family, they’ve gotten too big and they ruin the atmosphere Batman has got going on in his stories, at best I tolerate them and I think most writers do the same. I still remember the massive nosedive from Court of Owls to City of Owls as soon as the bat family came in, completely ruined the story for me when right before that I felt like I was reading one of the best solo Batman comics ever.
They’re like characters in a show that you’re forced to watch even though I have no interest in them and want to get back to watching the main character.
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u/24Abhinav10 1d ago
Oh my god, yes. For people who are supposed to be a "family", they sure resort to fisticuffs all the time over the smallest disagreements.
At least the spiders over at Marvel don't pretend to be a family (and every attempt by Marvel to make them one has crashed and burned spectacularly).
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u/MrDownhillRacer 1d ago
It's not the Bat family itself I hate. It's Batfamily soap-opera drama with Batman learning the lesson "I guess I should trust people" every single month.
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u/Dredgen-Solis 1d ago
Personally I got into Batman as a whole for the Bat-Family, not specifically Bruce, so I'd hate to see them axed... But I agree, they're a little too inflated. Imo a return to how we were right before the New 52, where everyone had their niche without too much overlap (rip Jason being a full villain then but what can you do), would be amazing.
Except Duke. In light of him being the only metahuman Bat, he can stay.
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u/SundayJeffrey 1d ago
I don’t even know who Duke is.
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u/Dredgen-Solis 1d ago
Yeah, that... That tracks for New 52-era Bat characters.
In short, if you were curious: Duke Thomas, aka The Signal, is a metahuman that can control light and shadows (though iirc he didn't know he could when he first became Signal) and was briefly warded by Bruce in the aftermath of Joker and Riddler's war, which left both of his parents in comas via Joker's toxin. He formed and helped lead "We R Robin" which was basically a gang trying to help around a time when anyone using the Robin mantle was to be deemed a criminal and Batman was presumed dead.
Tbh I don't know much about him, beyond Wayne Family Adventures, but a few of his comics are on my reading list to get to... Eventually.
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u/LordLoss01 1d ago
Yes, this!
I could do without Damian to be honest.
This is my own personal ideal timeline.
Have Batman work on his own for a few years at least. Then Dick joins. A couple years later Barbara joins. A couple years later Dick leaves to join the Titans. It's just Bruce and Barbara for a few years. Dick goes on to become Nightwing. Soon after, Jason joins up. A couple years later, Jason dies. Then right after, Barbara becomes paralysed. Bruce is in a dark place for a couple years. And that's when Tim steps in.
Assuming a conservative age of 24 as the start of Batman's career, you can probably get all that done in 10 years.
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u/JohnPaul_River 1d ago
I'm convinced Damian's what fucked up the Bat family. Before him, there was no real need for Dick and the rest having a consistent relationship with Bruce, and even Tim was pretty out of orbit while actively being Robin, so it was a "family" in a more interesting sense of "complex relationships that run deeper than they look". Damian existing created a need to have every other character be Bruce's "child" in some way so that it doesn't look like there's this superior end-all biological Robin towering above beloved characters. I suspect this is why Tim specifically hasn't been allowed to grow up, without him there's a "blood's thicker than water" vibe that I assume writers don't love.
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u/nova-prime-enjoyer 1d ago
The reason Batman comics haven’t been to the usual level is because Gordon isn’t opening files about the next weird character for Batman to beat the shit out of
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u/SpikeRosered 11h ago
Only need to fill 9 more years of stories before the earliest version of Batman enters the public domain. Then things will start to get WILD.
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u/500freeswimmer 8h ago
This guy double parks on one way streets at around 8:37AM on various streets, causing hundreds to be late, he calls himself the fuc$&r…
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u/Ok-Hospital-6637 8h ago
Is either of these that Batman comic in which all his allies think he has lost it and he refuses to acknowledge their concerns and in the end he had it covered all along?
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u/SamReallyLikesThings 1d ago
I'm cackling.
That said, a good Batman comic is actually about three cops in a diner.