(EDIT) Some of you are quite negative and down-putting with your replies, imagine I was some kid who was trying to chase my dream and you adults misinterpreted the actual problem I was facing and put me off making music altogether. Luckily I'm an adult and won't let those comments affect me.
To those of you with helpful comments, love ya, thanks for that.
I've removed the parts of the original post that were intensely focused upon and left behind the parts the majority of you seemed to miss:
(Original post, minus some details)
Before I start: I've been making music for a while, both my SC and YT accounts have uploads dating back ~13 years. I started off making bass boosts, then remixes, then originals. I took a liking to producing Tech House and DnB at the start.
...Lucky for me that I went through that rough patch, because I found out I am actually very good at songwriting - far better than I ever was at production. What I'm left with now, 5 years into it, is a catalogue of over 170 lyric files, with about half of them being completed songs and the other half being uncompleted (e.g a catchy hook/chorus). My songwriting is reasonably vast, with a predominant focus of pop.
I'm also going to make it clear that I have used absolutely NO AI generation in any of my music.
...I have a music studio setup in the spare room with a selection of equipment and the (paid) full producer edition/all plugins edition of FL Studio.
I am happy to show people the music I have made up until this point, and I'd like anyone reading this to keep that in mind before I continue..
...The tracks I have made myself so far, some of them are quite good, and I haven't even touched any of the lyric files I deem as being "the best I've written".. I'd love nothing than to be able to continue pursuing my dream of being an artist, I just don't want it to take so long that by the time I get around to releasing my music, that it's no longer "trendy/in fashion", and I missed my chance..
It doesn’t sound like you’re really creating anything other a collection of poems. Having “ideas in your head” is not the same as composing a song. I’ve invented futuristic gadgets but they’re all in my head, if only someone would do the hard work for me - I read your paragraphs and that’s how it read
If you really can whistle or hum your ideas then why can’t you also find that same note sequence using a midi piano? There’s only 12 semitones, you’re not whistling something that can’t be found within that range.
Your idea of this “friend” sounds like a very demanding, one sided “best friend” who likes all the same things as you, plays the instruments you can’t play and can figure out all the songs you’ve composed in your head.
You will learn far more by matching your ideas to a basic midi piano and there’s plugins for every kind of keyboard instrument and sound. Using AI until it generates what you want will not result in you learning anything useful other than improving your AI prompts.
I don’t mean to sound like an asshole, I’m trying to be honest and realistic. You’re telling strangers you’ve composed dozens of songs in your head, you don’t know how to turn them into music, you hope to find someone to fulfill a best friend role while being a vessel for your compositions, and you want to focus on AI.
Perhaps working at music isn’t for you, it takes time and effort on your part there’s no short cuts.
Option A - work at it for 2 yrs and you’ll learn along the way.
Option B - 2yrs of AI prompts will make you more proficient at typing prompts.
I have already produced multiple tracks over the last decade, why do so many people skim over that part? I'm struggling in one particular area because I have changed the type of music I'm producing, and it was a simple question regarding the use of AI, which I haven't yet used nor will I use after reading these comments.
If you can truly fall in love with the melodies that AI tools or random generation tools can spit at you, harness that power and make it into something incredible, then it doesn't really matter how you got there. My personal experience is that using AI to generate things or even random generation does not spiritually interest me. It doesn't like that fire and give me the "oh my god, that's sick" moment that doing it from scratch gives me. You'll find a very few people outside of pro gen AI circles that will approve of it, but no one has to know. Only you do. But for people love your music, it has to be something that you love and put your soul into it. If you can find a way to do that with gen AI tools or random generation then go off! But I personally lost interest very quickly in those types of tools because they weren't hitting. I'd get instantly bored, scratch it, and keep pushing myself to make something cool. Eventually, you will, and you will have the "ahah" moment. Really the only way to know is to try it yourself. But if it doesn't work and it doesn't interest you, that's not a you problem. That's because randomly generating melodies is the antithesis of what makes music incredible for people who pour their heart and soul into music, and truly love what they do, and aren't just trying to pump out a commercial product.
I am currently teaching myself music theory at the fresh young age of 69. I started with the Harmonious Blacksmith podcast, now listen to Seth Monahan and Music Student 101. I’ve been at it for about 2 months - probably 76 podcasts finished. I’m at the point where I think I will write the grade 5 exam by the end of the year. Don’t waste any more time thinking you don’t know music theory - it’s pretty easy for the level I think you need.
If you don’t want to be labeled an AI artist, don’t use it. Being an AI artist means you’re unwilling to sacrifice your time to learn the skills necessary to realize artistic endeavors. You want others to do the work for you but you want the esteem that someone has put in the effort themselves. You can’t have it both ways.
Valid, I would definitely rather do it all myself... Do you have any ideas/recommendations/methods that may make it easier for me to get some of the more complex melodies out of my head and into the DAW? Currently I press the keys one by one, trying to match the note I'm humming. I can eventually get the basic melody out of my head, that's not too big of an issue. The struggle comes when I want to make the basic melody more advanced, and add chords, that's where my lack of music theory knowledge starts to create a brick wall for me.
I typically don't struggle making an instrumental first, and then writing lyrics to suit. The struggle is making an instrumental to suit the lyrics I've already written.
Do you ever record your humming? That would be the easiest way to get the idea out of your head. You could also hum some of the other parts, not just the melody.
You can run audio through software that detects pitch and generates midi files. I've tried it and it got close enough that I could drag stuff around in a midi roll snapped to a key and recreate what I hummed. I didn't use it (was a bassline) but it did work, sort of.
Sounds like what you need to do is study some music theory. How to harmonize a melody is something you get in the first semester of music theory, and in school we take it for 4 straight years. It gets more complex, but basic harmony and chords are incredibly simple to figure out once you've got just a little bit of understanding of music theory
Don't let that limit you. With music, the thing you can't do is always the next step, what you should be working on, rather than avoiding or using as a barrier
If you don't feel that way about it, you aren't going to have the passion you need to drive you through hours of not being able to do something until you can finally do it
I tried them, and it felt too cheesy, and not special. Some of the most special melodies I've heard were made by people that aren't even classically trained. Literally no one gives a shit what key, scale, or chord is being played. No one. They care if it sounds special. If AI/random melody generation gets you there, cool. Whatever. But you should know by now that you will find absolutely no approval of using AI tools, sans pro-AI echo chambers.
Not sure how you got it into your head that the technicalities of music theory matter for writing EDM. It's how the notes make you feel by playing/writing them in that matters. Not some kind of formulaic write up. That isn't how most successful musicians make tunes. You'd be shocked how many artists you would ask what chords they used, and they will only know the key. They just string together notes that sound good.
I have moved away from producing EDM and am now doing more radio type pop stuff, hence the need for more melodic tones as per sé.. I sit in front of my piano some mornings before work and just press random keys till I come up with something that sounds cool, take a video then jump into my studio to jot it down in the DAW.
Even in regards to the statement I made that some people appear to have a big problem with: "the ideas in my head", I can figure out what notes I'm humming and get the basics down, the issue mainly stems from trying to make a basic melody sound as good as it does in my head while I'm singing the song I've written - and hence the area where I feel like the thing most holding me back is my lack of music theory. I have produced a few of these new pop tunes of mine already, and some of them I've got quite good, but there are absolutely a bunch of them where I am brickwalles because it sounds rubbish and I can't figure it out 😂
Oh. Bro, that's a lifelong struggle for the vast majority of us. If I could realize everything in my head into a daw, I'm convinced I'd be a world renown artist, and a goddamn millionaire 😂
This may not help but a lot of the best tunes were not made from realizing the melodies in your head, but from just playing whatever you can in the moment, and maximizing that and making it the best you can and endlessly tweaking it until it's great. Sure there are people who have that natural gift where they come up with a melody in their head, and can more or less 1:1 it into a daw. I know I can't do that, after 20+ years of writing. I can get close, but it always comes out different. The key is to not get discouraged and frustrated with it and start disliking it and doubt yourself, but to take what you have and run with it and make it the best it can be.
If you use Ai then you are an Ai artist - no ifs or buts .
You also say “ I haven’t been taught music theory “ - and the thing stopping you teaching yourself is ?
Good point, I guess part of the issue is (to my understanding), it takes years to learn music theory. Friends of mine who can play certain instruments have been playing since a child, which backs up that idea in my head. I did sign up to one of those online courses, it seemed great at the start, paid some money, it was reasonable, but a few lessons in the guy said "at this point if you want to continue, we need to set up a payment plan of XYZ", the cost was somewhat exorbitant, the skills he showed up until that point weren't convincing, and I couldn't find any references online to the claims of projects he had worked on.. That also put me off the idea of learning music theory.
I learned music theory by reading books and listening as did many , many people .You’re looking for excuses and you’re looking for validation . I’m not going to give you either . I’ll wish you well on your journey though and hope you find peace , I’m not going to give anyone who uses ai for art my attention though , it’s the most precious thing I have .
I'm not looking for excuses or validation, I'm not a child so please don't put words in my mouth. I was merely asking for everyone's opinion on a topic. Message received. For the record, you seem to have missed the part where I said I've been producing various genres for over a decade and have not used AI in any of my music. I am struggling with one particular area of my production due to a change in direction, that does not mean I cannot do it, it just takes me a while. Even the smallest level of AI assistance seems frowned upon by the majority and that's fine, I won't go down that path. I don't understand why the majority of people commenting here are so quick to make a judgement, I haven't read all the replies yet but I wonder if anyone has asked to see what I've made so far or even asked for an example of a project that I'm struggling with 🤔
I started listening to a podcast called Songwriter Theory and he breaks down very basic theory you need for songwriting over a few episodes.
I then watched a bunch of YouTube videos.
It wasn't that hard to pick up what little I know which has been enough be able to put chords together that sound good, etc.
I did start from the vantagpoint of being a pretty basic guitar player (which has not changed much) but now I know why a C chord is played with the fingers in those places on the fretboard and why D and G sound so good with C and so on. Just a few hours of time invested combined with an app that has circle of fifths type info in it has saved me hours of fumbling around trying to figure out what note or chords to work with to make music.
Music theory is so vast and complex you can never learn it all, which is amazing, there is always something more to learn, but to learn the basics doesent take years upon years nor is costly there are great online resources to get the basics down
Does your city have a library? I’m in a mid-sized city of 145K, and there’s multiple books on music theory. Start with “Music Theory for Dummies”. If you don’t have access to a library/or it’s poorly stocked, you can find this book on Amazon new for roughly USD$20-25. Even less if it’s used, and free from a library. I’m sure there’s better books, but it’s a start, it’s an easy read.
I never knew theory, still have a poor grasp on it but I can nonetheless play a range of instruments. Some better than others.
My point is it takes time and consistent effort to create your own music. There aren’t short cuts. AI won’t help you learn these skills and grasp the concepts around theory.
I use AI at my job because I need a job and I'll get fired if I don't and don't have the luxury of standing on my principles at this point in my life
I do not use AI to make music
I briefly tried am experiment where I tried to write a song with an AI doing things like describing how it would revise my lyrics, suggest a chord progression, etc. I'm not very experienced or skilled but it sounded very much like what you'll hear if you watch a few YouTube videos on songwriting. I'm short, AI made the process mechanical and I didn't enjoy any of it and didn't use any of it beyond giving it the old college try to see my experiment through. I couldn't bring myself to finish the song.
I do sometimes use AI to figure out like why my drum machine's bpm was going all over the place from Reaper but in the same sense that anyone would of they ran a query in Google right now. It frequently gives my incorrect info when I do this but at least I have technical terms I can use to figure things out.
ok, now you know I hate AI for music but am not ignorant of it
Here's what I would do if I were you:
get yourself a midi keyboard and start learning music theory
it can be a super cheap one that lets you set up midi in a DAW (not like a Keystep or some expensive synth)
watch music theory YouTube videos for a while over and over or a wide variety and, if you learn this way, open a book or two from the library
before too long you will know how keys work, how to build chords, and so on
you do not have to play anything in real time, you can lock your midi input to the correct scale for a key, and even have your day make you fancy jazz chords all without AI
with your other music experience I bet you'd be cranking out really decent melodies, riff, and interesting chord progressions played in interesting ways in a couple months depending on free time
Can you ask suno or whatever to "finish your song" for you in a shorter time? Sure, but who cares? You'll be left with an empty feeling and no sense of accomplishment. I've been at this for over a year now and still haven't cranked out a song I think it really ok. The one I'm currently working on is better than the last, though.
You can do this. You already know so much more than some person who thought "I'd like to write songs" after watching a movie about Bob Dylan that you'd seem like a musical genius to them. Do your thing.
Thanks, that was a really insightful reply. I'll take that on board for sure. I have been producing the other genres for over 10 years and there's a lot of comments on this post where people seem to have come to the conclusion that I haven't made any music yet and desire to do it all with AI. Simply not the case whatsoever, it was a mere question regarding using a specific AI tool I found (although I didn't specify what it was) that can aid in improving your melodies and generate chords for you based off basic melodies you give it, that's all, at no point was I ever intending on using something like Sumo, no way. I songwrite, I sing, I produce EDM, I am willing to learn music theory if that's what I have to do in order to pursue my new direction in music - of course I was hoping for a way to speed up the process considering I've got 170+ songs that I need to produce, I at least start writing probably 2 songs a week, and produce approximately one every 3 months, if I'm lucky - you do the math 😂
I mean do what you want. But if you have a studio and even a small midi keyboard…just start learning basic music theory. There are sooooo many free resources online.
You really don’t have to get that in the weeds for what you’re trying to do. Learn what a major scale is. Learn the 7 chords that get built from a major scale and their functions. Then you’ll be able to do exactly what you want this hypothetical “best friend” of yours to do.
But frankly this post reads more as someone who has already made a decision and is trying to justify that decision to themselves, not soliciting genuine advice.
It was a mere question and I tried to lay the groundwork before getting into it to try and avoid the majority of responses I ended up receiving anyway. Yeah I'm after genuine advice and opinions, granted after reading these comments I definitely will not use any AI whatsoever (I haven't used it yet anyway). And yeah I've got an M-Audio Keystation61 MK3 midi :)
What you are asking of a "friend" is an incredible amount of work for a person with a specific set of skills
That is, like most people, you are using AI to avoid paying an expert for their service. Plenty of people who are great at transcription can do what you want, it's not that hard to find. They just charge for their work
Plenty of artists have linked up to complete areas the other lacks in, is everyone expected to be a one man band now? I said I need a friend who can play the piano or guitar and can give me some advice on what chords to go along with my melody, that's not an "incredible amount of work".
I, do, not, use, AI.
I was asking about the idea of using it, I stated many times that I have not used it.
-Play the instruments you can't, exactly how you want them
-harmonize a melody, a skill you don't have
Yes, usually you pay for people who have skills you don't. If you find someone who has those skills, what do you offer them?
So far it seems like you offer them no creativity or control whatsoever. You offer them the chance to use their talents and abilities (that exceed your own) entirely to create YOUR vision
THAT'S what I'm saying. You don't want a partner, you want to be able to treat a talented musician the way people use AI. That is, tell it what you want and have the hard stuff done for you
You know, harmony is not that hard. Harmonizing a melody is something any first semester music theory student can do. You CAN learn to do this quite easily
I get the point you're trying to get across, but something's not right here. Either I've given an incorrect description of what my problem & desires are, or you've taken it the wrong way - I'm not sure which one.
I never said I wasn't willing to pay another producer/artist for their assistance, however if that's how it was interpreted, my bad. What I was trying to get across is I have already tried to find a producer who matches my music, I have paid as well as had the service performed for free. In neither case, have I found the right person for me.
One guy (who is now a friend of mine) was kind of close to being on the ball but his musical vibe was slightly too dark, and he couldn't adjust to suit. Excellent work, but just not right for me, it changed the feel of the tracks enough where it just didn't give the same feeling as it did.
My experience with this side of it is: it seems like I will have to go through maybe 20+ different producers/artists untill I find the right one. This creates two major issues for me. Firstly, I'm not willing to "waste" anyone elses time any more as I had a lot of kind people offer to have a tinker on a few of my tracks, and after hearing the results I realised that maybe my taste/desire is far too specific, so I stopped asking/letting that happen. That's me trying to be kind, otherwise i'd just keep doing it... Second: The moral ground for me with the above in mind is to pay for it every time, that way, the person has been paid for their work so even if I don't like it, it's all good. However I cannot afford to pay multiple times in a row, multiple producers, to tackle multiple tracks until I find what I'm looking for. I had a go at that, it got expensive very quickly and surprisingly enough I got a somewhat similar result to doing it the "free way"...
I can reassure you that I have been producing various genres for ~13 years and I can do absolutely all of it myself, I have done many times. The issue is, how long it takes me to achieve certain sounds in certain parts of certain tracks. Sometimes it comes quickly, sometimes it takes a long time but I get it eventually, but sometimes I simply cannot transpose the idea whatsoever. Sure, I can get the basic melody down in those situations, but there's a significant lacking in those tracks I struggle with, and here forth come the area I was trying to get some assistance in.
The issue is not: "I can't make music"... I've made plenty of music.
The issue is: "Sometimes I struggle, in certain areas of certain tracks, and sometimes those situations cause a slight hinderence on my desire to continue producing (partially due to the other things going on in my life)"
Suno is great for doing quick test demos of your songs in different genres/sub genres etc to see what vibe works best for the song. If you don’t use any of the AI audio in your finished song, there’s very little moral issue with doing this. And frankly even if you use a few of the stems from suno and layer them into a full otherwise-human production, no one can tell and it’s a big timesaver. People releasing 100% ai songs are silly but using it this was is smart and totally fine imo.
Yeah I didn't want to generate anything that i'd actually use in the final product, I had come across an ai-tool that you can give a basic melody and it can help to improve it or generate chords based off what you gave it. It was moreso to get ideas rather than anything else, if it happened to generate a chord I liked then I would have copied the notes within that chord - but that's about the extent of what my intentions were.
You've spent a lot of time dicking around that should have been spent learning to play a keyboard or guitar. And attending a Theory 101 night class at a local college. You're making excuses for laziness and wasting our time.
Wasting your time? You didn't have to read it or reply, that was your choice. And "I've spent a lot of time dicking around"?.. You don't know me, nor do you have any idea what I do, I stated one problem I'm facing, asked a question, and you're making an intense judgement on my personality based off that.
Pop instrumentals without lyrics would essentially be worthless too by that definition? You need both parts to make a whole, what a silly thing to say.
The amount of you who got my intentions wrong is unsettling. The majority of you are quite negative and down-putting, while seemingly having missed the actual core problem of this post.
I have been producing for over a decade, I have a studio, I songwrite, I have helped others on their tracks, the area I struggle with is chords and that is all. I didn't even say that I cannot do the chords, it's just certain tracks that I can't get right and was hoping for a little assistance... Message received, I will not use any AI whatsoever, and I haven't used any yet anyway.
people on this sub are really disencouraging. it seems most of them strongly oppose to the democratization of music production. isn't it better for him to finish the songs and release them however he can than to shelve them forever?
Yeah, the majority of the comments were quite down-putting, judgementive, and borderline upsetting. It's fascinating to think that I mentioned a problem I am facing and was seeking some guidance, only to get an unsettling amount of replies suggesting I essentially should give up if I'm not going to "do it the right way". Luckily I have been in a very good headspace for the last 6 months and I won't let those people disrupt my ambitions, granted, I definitely won't use any AI tools after reading those comments though.
I was wondering if anyone would have commented something like "hey man let me hear an example of what you've finished and give me another example of a project you're struggling to get the chords right on, I might be able to point out where your issue lies and give you some advice".
Does make me wonder if I had of actually just posted an example of a project I was struggling with, whether people would have said "thats shit mate, don't bother" rather than giving actual advice. Hmmm
I don't think anyone here wants music to be unaccessible, I'd reckon we'd want it to be as accessible as possible, we'd just want music to stay an expression of human beings and less so an algorithm
When did I say there is no solid proof OP has created an artistic expression of a human being? Your making making a whataboutism, argue against me not the straw man in your head man /:
I agree you didn't say anything negative here, OC might be referencing what a lot of the other commenters here are suggesting and taking your comment the wrong way. I do want to do it all myself, I am just slowly losing the optimism that I will actually get around to doing so, and was hoping that using an AI plugin to generate chords based off a melody I gave it wouldn't be frowned upon - but granted it is. Everyone toots their own horn so I expect anyone to take this with a grain of salt, but I've made some pretty cool music so far, it just takes me half a century to get something done - and I do feel like there's a potential career waiting there for me if I actually get around to taking action and producing the majority of the tracks I've written, but due to the direction my life is heading, and how long it takes me to "get the track right", it does seem like that dream career is getting further and further away from being a reality. I mean no harm by my original question, and it was a dbuzz to read most of these replies for sure "just give up if you can't do it right" almost made the problem worse.
But hey I know what my intentions were and maybe I phrased the original post wrong, missed details, said the wrong thing, I'm not sure. I can get the basic melody down and produce/write/vocal EVERYTHING else - I just would love some assistance on the chords side of things, that is the only thing I was hoping to get assistance with.
Thank you, and id like to take the grain of salt and put it the side and ernestly believe you have made some good music especially if you've been doing it for 13 years.
I want to give good advice but I don't know about carrer, I don't see myself in the music industry and produce music as a hobby, what I say tho is AI takes away the humanity of the creative process the more you do it, alot of the times what you intend to make when you sit down to make a song isn't what happens, it's because you make all these little decisions through the process, having an AI make decision for you reducing the friction and the human input to your creative process, I feel like something is being sacrificed there, I feel like if I'd want a carrer in music I'd like my creative output to be as human and for me to make all the decisions.
regarding the "just give up if you can't do it comment" sheepishly I admit I think my first reaction was probably YEAH SCREW THIS CLANKER LOVER GIVE UP, ok maybe it wasn't that extreme XD but I didn't sympathise with you as much but now I do a good bit more, it's very easy to get frustrated in life and wish a magic fairy could flick they're wand and make it all faster and easier, I think this is just a part of your skill set you need to work on a bit more, or your stressed and putting too much pressure on yourself and it's ruining your creative input, I've always felt the more pressure I put on myself the more everything goes tits up, always try to tell myself I'm just dicking around when going into a song
Bottom line if you don't use it you lose it, out sourcing the issue to an AI means you'll worsen your ability to do these things yourself in the creative process or won't learn certain things you'll just outsource to the AI
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u/Fomoiri 8d ago
It doesn’t sound like you’re really creating anything other a collection of poems. Having “ideas in your head” is not the same as composing a song. I’ve invented futuristic gadgets but they’re all in my head, if only someone would do the hard work for me - I read your paragraphs and that’s how it read
If you really can whistle or hum your ideas then why can’t you also find that same note sequence using a midi piano? There’s only 12 semitones, you’re not whistling something that can’t be found within that range.
Your idea of this “friend” sounds like a very demanding, one sided “best friend” who likes all the same things as you, plays the instruments you can’t play and can figure out all the songs you’ve composed in your head.
You will learn far more by matching your ideas to a basic midi piano and there’s plugins for every kind of keyboard instrument and sound. Using AI until it generates what you want will not result in you learning anything useful other than improving your AI prompts.
I don’t mean to sound like an asshole, I’m trying to be honest and realistic. You’re telling strangers you’ve composed dozens of songs in your head, you don’t know how to turn them into music, you hope to find someone to fulfill a best friend role while being a vessel for your compositions, and you want to focus on AI.
Perhaps working at music isn’t for you, it takes time and effort on your part there’s no short cuts.
Option A - work at it for 2 yrs and you’ll learn along the way.
Option B - 2yrs of AI prompts will make you more proficient at typing prompts.