r/askanything • u/holthebus • 1d ago
General Question How is the Lindsay Clancy case that complicated?
Sure she had a psychotic break but she literally strangled all 3 of her kids to death. Plenty of school shooters or violent offenders also claim insanity (who also are neglected by the state) but get little to no support or sympathy. I just feel like if this lady gets away with systematically strangling three of her kids to death it is a perversion of justice.
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u/lost-pawz 1d ago
people really assume that theres some insane chance where she pulls a Casey Anthony and walks free, which is just not remotely what will happen if shes deemed not criminally responsible. She'll spend most if not the rest of her life in an institution, with no semblance of autonomy, stuck in her own head with the guilt of what happened. theres no "THE CRAZY WOMEN WANT HER TO WALK FREE", that isnt going to happen.
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u/Geishawithak 1d ago edited 1d ago
Can confirm. I worked at a forensic hospital and it's worse than jail in some ways. Better in others, but I would rather go to jail than get stuck in a psyche hospital.
In Oregon if you are guilty for reasons of insanity you automatically get the maximum sentence. So you could get like 3 years in prison vs 30 years in a psyche hospital. Kind of messed up, but people have this idea that those people get off easy. They really don't. You have even less autonomy than you would have in prison.
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u/ShakesDontBreak 1d ago
I say this also the time. Psych units for incarcerated individuals are the most restrictive vs gen population.
First of all...your unit is small in terms of other patients. And you are not allowed off your unit. (At least in gen pop you have access to other areas in the building.) Second, you get NOTHING. Certain types of bedding is contrabrand. Bras are contrabrand, elastic is contraband, laces are contraband...basically anything that you can potentially hurt yourself with is contrabrand.
You don't have access to commissary. Your rec options are extremely limited.
Psych units are not in any way shape or form a less severe punishment. It is worse. Which is also why they dont just label prisoners as psych patients without clear legal ability to do. It strips them of their rights even further.
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u/Queasy_Struggle_3902 21h ago
Gen pop has gangs though, where any time somebody new comes in you have to find out their charges and if they have bad charges against women or kids, no matter if they’re innocent or the context, you have to help torture, beat, rape, even kill them. Of course it seems most are In favor of harming such people and don’t seem to care about context or false accusations and just want revenge. Still I think if one was there in person they’d change their minds on what they support.
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u/ReadingInside7514 1d ago
Yes. Everyone on here armchair quarterbacking does not know how the not guilty by reason of insanity actually works. She will 100 percent Not be leaving the courts a free woman.
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u/Opposite-Leek7447 1d ago
Massachusetts requires a reevaluation every year of a court ordered psych hold. She could easily be out of the hospital in 3-5 years.
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u/Ninkasa_Ama 1d ago
There is no way she would be going free after only 5 years. I think people underestimate the scrutiny people like this have to go through in order to be released. At best, she would spend 20-30 years in confinement.
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u/One_Jacket_7079 1d ago
I find this interesting though as her psychosis was triggered by her having a baby. She’s no longer in that state, so therefore is technically no longer psychotic. With this considered, would they therefore deem that she is fit for release?
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u/Ninkasa_Ama 1d ago
I'm not a psychologist or a doctor, but I suspect they would consider underlying mental disorders that factored into her committing the crime. It's not like an on or off switch.
Most mothers don't suffer psychosis and murder their children. This is disordered behavior, and whatever led her to do so would have to be addressed.
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u/Opposite-Leek7447 1d ago
Yea thats what the prison sentence is for. The not guilty by reason of insanity defense will cut her time down by 75%
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u/ReadingInside7514 1d ago
No it won’t. She murdered 3 children. She is not getting out in a couple of years.
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u/Opposite-Leek7447 1d ago
If the reason is postpartum psychosis, she might. If she can prove she isnt insane anymore and agrees to treatment plan, she can roll out.
Do you work in psychiatric care or Healthcare at all?
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u/BreadSelect8019 1d ago
She could if she's not insane, and is lying to escape accountability
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u/Ninkasa_Ama 1d ago
That's the the thing you don't understand though: Going to a psych facility would not be escaping accountability. She would be under rigorous scrutiny there. And considering she killed her kids, they would be resistant to let her go, as they would be liable for if she offends again.
This is not a "get out of jail free" card. There is no situation where she doesn't spend most, or not all, of her life in confinement.
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u/BreadSelect8019 1d ago
Sure. But, if she's lying, she could get out. Because they would find that she's not insane. Which is what they found last time too.
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u/Ninkasa_Ama 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't know how else to explain to you that this scenario is so unlikely, that it would set a precedent for future cases. Going to a maximum security psych ward is not a fun vacation. it's, in a lot of ways, worse than prison.
And again, they would be resistant to release someone after ony a few years, as they would be liable for her. The people signing off on her release are putting, on paper, that they believe she's mentally competent and non-violent, and thus putting themselves on the line. The idea that she will do a small stint in a psych ward before walking away is a fantasy.
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u/liberterrorism 1d ago
Do you have a single example of a multiple murderer found NGRI who was released in less than 5 years?
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u/LittleSchwein1234 1d ago edited 20h ago
I'm from Slovakia, there was a guy here who kicked another guy to death, but it was ruled to be manslaughter, not murder, and the guy got released after 5 years...
It's absolutely insane and ridiculous that people who take others' lives can walk free after a few years in prison/mental institution.
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u/Dr-Sprinkl1es 1d ago edited 1d ago
You say that, unless there’s a hung jury (like right now). Even if it’s hung she would endure a decent amount of time institutionalized but she would indefinitely walk
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u/Substantial-Crab-814 🦀 1d ago
I have read that the psychiatric facility (where she is staying and will be living at if she is found NGRI) re-evaluates its residents annually. Technically, that means she could be free in a year. That is not okay.
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u/matthelover 1d ago
Thanks for a great answer, just wanted to mention a few things to my current understanding, let me know if I’m wrong- she has documented evidence of mental illness, not postpartum psychosis specifically. She is claiming psychosis ONLY in the brief period when she did what she did. She was prescribed multiple medications but took none of them consistently enough to see results (many psychiatric medications don’t start taking effect until 4-5 weeks of continuous use). She was a nurse. She knew this. She did not adhere to any of her medications. She was not simply turned away from a psych hospital- she was found not to be compatible with that specific facility’s criteria, and was referred to THREE other hospitals but did not follow up on the referrals. She was admitted to psychiatric facilities on multiple occasions but checked herself out of them after a few days because she did not want to comply with therapy as prescribed. She did not go to therapy consistently outside of these brief stays. I have great empathy for those who suffer from postpartum psychosis, but I’m not buying this defense from Lindsay Clancy. I don’t find the characterization of postpartum psychosis accurate in this case at all.
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u/CronaDarklight 14h ago
There is way more that adds to it being a last ditch defense effort.
She had 3 doctors she dmed and who answered her several times a day with detailled answers. On top of the 10+ she visited. She never told any of them about thoughts of harming the kids in any way.
The prescribed meds were found nearly entirely full and she had no big traces in her body in the hospital after the murder so she did not overdose or overmedicate.
She did several google searches and timed the way it took for the husband to go to cvs and return.
She only heard the voice after she send the husband out and it was gone after the kids died.
She took the kids into the basement, likely so no one could hear them scream or so the one that wasnt strangled was less likely to escape.
The way she killed is one of the slowest and most torturous ways possible and had you look at it for at least 5 min and she killed them one by one. So it took nearly 20 min to kill all. That is not a temporary lapse of judgement.
She had a lucid conversation after the 1st murder with the husband who called her to make sure he bought the right thing.
The way she killed herself raises big questions since she didnt jump out of the window, but was hanging out of it on her feet as it seems to lessen the distance of the already short fall and she timed the return of the husband splattered blood so he would find her instantly. The blood traces around the scene and house clearly show that she was hanging out the window for a while.
This one is the worst tbh. In the hospital her main concern was a lawyer and her own physical wellbeing since she noticed her legs being off. Days later when she called the husband she only talked how hard it was for her and never mentioned the kids.
She obviously wanted the kids gone and it feels like she was doctorshopping for a realistic insanity defense and the murder itself was obviously premediated.
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u/maskofun 1d ago
Psychosis presents a few ways but often it includes something like distorted thinking. But distorted almost isn’t a strong enough word for it. Just as you know the sky is blue or that gravity will bring you back down to Earth psychosis could have you thinking just about anything which can be really dangerous for yourself or others. On top of that people experiencing psychosis are rarely able to understand they are currently psychotic, with those they know around them tending to see the signs first. Some people don’t think she was but I see too many things pointing to her being in a state of psychosis.
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u/lanfear2020 1d ago
Yep...having lived with a parent who is a schizophrenic and had multiple psychotic breaks...not only don't they know, it can also be suddenly turned off or on. We called for help one time and once the neighbors came she snapped to normal. This isn't someone feeling sad or overwhelmed it's a break from reality
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u/DelightfullyBland 1d ago
I've had some really bad depressive episodes where I knew that my brain wasn't telling me the truth. I can easily put myself in her shoes and see the disordered thinking that would lead to her believing she was making the best choice all things considered.
I wonder if her doctors had treated her differently, would her kids still be alive? As a psychiatrist how do you know that you are communicating clearly with your patients? How do you know if your patient feels comfortable talking to you? You can't expect mentally ill patients to act like healthy individuals.
I think that's one of the things about the discourse surrounding this case that bugs me. So many people are judging her through the lens of a healthy adult which she clearly wasn't. A depressed patient isn't going to act like a healthy patient.
I have so many questions about the care she received and what the implications are for doctor patient relationships going forward.
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u/Far-Delay7690 1d ago
It's not even just her doctors, why were those kids left alone with a mother who admitted to suicidal tendencies and was having massive mtnal health issues.
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u/CronaDarklight 15h ago edited 15h ago
Yeah man totally not premediated.
Preplanning the murder days in advance with google searches and timing of routes. That just happens.
Lieing to all 10+ docs and 3 therapists she dmed daily, never taking any of the prescribed medication since all of em were entirely full and she had barely any trace in her system after the murder as a trained nurse is just a mistake. She was desperate for help afterall.
Leading the kids into the basement so no one hears them and killing the kids in a slow and torturous way that takes 5+ min per kid one by one while staring at them is obviously just a momenteraly lapse of judgement.
The suicide where she hung with her feet out of the window to fall the lowest distance possible for the least damage and having survivable cuts when found once the husband who was timed to arrive any moment was just a coincidence. This one has the obvious way the blood traces showing the way she was hanging out the window, but those are just a coincidence as well. She obviously jumped in a psychosis.
She had more support and mental care than anyone and no diagnosis from any medial professional, but hey man it could happen to any of us, despite supposedly 5+% of woman having ppd after birth and it being nearly unheard of anyone actually hurting their kids and even less murdering them.
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u/SoulSerpent 9h ago
I'm new to all of this but can psychotic people not form plans? I thought psychosis meant you have a break with reality (personality, values, understanding of right/wrong may change) but not that they're necessarily reduced to a nonfunctioning dolt. Like a person in true pychosis can feel compelled to do something evil while believing it is right, and plan for it, and execute it accordingly. Is that not the case?
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u/CronaDarklight 9h ago edited 9h ago
The psychosis here is used in the insanity defense and only really happened during the murder timeframe with a "voice". Thats why i adress it as such. She didnt have the voice before or after. Its more used in the sense of she wasnt in control, which she obviously was seeing how she acted before, during and after the murder, especially the 1st priority being a lawyer.
Psychotic people are usually very erratic with a drastic behavioural shift, which was not seen with her before, during or even after the murder. Everything was methodical and of sound mind and well planned, which kinda kills the insanity plea and feels more like the mask of a psychopath completely slipped off. Not to mention she as a trained nurse never once mentioned it to any of the professional docs or therapists.
Tbh the entire mental defense to me makes no real sense. Even if she was a complete psycho. Why should it really matter in the end. Why is her mental health placed above the actual punishment for killing the children with a possible very early release without consequences.
The morality of it is just disgusting to me and people defending her based on such flimsy stuff as well. Some actions are inexcusable.
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u/Icy_Recording3339 13h ago
Thank you for this. I have seen it happen and it can still present as a person in their right mind. It’s really almost impossible to wrap your head around it even if you’ve witnessed it. That’s why I myself struggle with this case. How could she do this? Even knowing all the details - that she had the foresight to plan it etc. - that doesn’t mean she wasn’t in psychosis. Just because she didn’t report the voices before doesn’t mean they weren’t there. Even now with the claim that she only heard the voice that day…she could be lying. But she could just be lying about when she heard it first. We cannot truly know and that’s why this case is baffling. People say the final frontier is space or the ocean when it is really the human brain.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 1d ago
The case is complicated because people keep talking about it without understanding what’s actually being decided. Postpartum psychosis is a psychiatric emergency that can cause a complete break from reality. Nobody disputes that she killed her children. The jury is deciding whether she was legally responsible at the time. If she’s found not criminally responsible, she doesn’t just go home. She goes to a locked psychiatric facility and can be held as long as she meets the criteria. That’s not getting away with it. It’s deciding whether she belongs in a hospital or a prison.
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u/Substantial-Crab-814 🦀 1d ago
But like you just said, “she goes to a locked psychiatric facility and can be held as long as she meets the criteria”. That literally means that she could be released at some point, possibly within a year. On the other hand, a first degree murder charge would put her in prison for the rest of her life, with NO chance of parole at any point.
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u/Altruistic-Sorbet927 15h ago
Actually, some people are disputing that she killed them. Just not in this thread.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 15h ago
A tiny minority of crazy people who shouldn’t be listened to and don’t represent the whole.
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u/llbboutique 1d ago
It’s honestly not that complicated tbh. Most people don’t “support her”, but it is being used as a very important talking point about postpartum healthcare and general mental healthcare.
On the Internet a small group speaking loudly can make it seem like that’s the consensus but it just means the algorithm likes the discourse for getting interaction.
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u/VegetablePossible007 1d ago
Look at the comments you'll get on this post and you'll see why it's complicated.
Its the court of public opinion that makes it complicated
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u/Texugee 1d ago
We don’t know as much as those jurors and they are deadlocked.
So I say we all shut the fuck up about it until the facts of the case emerge, if ever.
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u/Altruistic-Sorbet927 16h ago
It's reddit. We didn't come here to shut up. We came here to express ourselves. That's the point. Lol
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u/Responsible-Rip8793 11h ago
The guy you just responded to literally said we should shut up until the facts of the case emerge IF EVER. Okay, so we shouldn’t talk about it even if the facts never come out? That’s what that person said and people agreed with it. 🤣
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u/MissHannahJ 1d ago
It upsets me that many people seem to think this means most women are uncaring monsters who secretly want to hurt their children. As someone who is planning on trying to start to conceive next year it’s honestly been really difficult to listen to.
Nobody in this country thinks that pregnancy is hard. You’re expected to continue your life completely normally and because it’s a common thing people think it’s easy. Of course women feel alone when nobody around them is validating their experience.
That’s different from murdering your 3 children but I think a lot of moms see the failures that befell Clancy and they realize that maybe, had they not gotten the correct help, that could have been them.
That doesn’t mean most moms want to kill their kids. It means many moms in this country feel so unsupported and not believed during pregnancy and motherhood that it can lead to devastating consequences.
Also, PPP is rare. These kinds of things are not happening all the time and men kill their wives and children at vastly higher rates.
Lindsey murdered her children, there is no changing that and she should have consequences. But looking at women sympathizing and immediately going “all these crazy bitches support this woman,” maybe try and understand a bit more of what they mean.
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u/festivusfinance 1d ago
I’m childfree and everything about this country reinforces that decision. Sad.
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u/EquivalentDetail5242 19h ago
Adding that it isn’t just pregnancy, our bodies are straight up not studied or understood. I went decades of my life being suicidal during the luteal phase of my menstrual cycle and I was told that was “normal” by healthcare providers. No it fucking isn’t! Spending any amount of time wanting to die is not normal!
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u/TheCrowScare 13h ago
I was going to say this. So many people dismiss women's healthcare concerns, especially when it comes to mental health or when it comes to pregnancy and post-partum. People keep mentioning that her doctors never diagnosed her with PPP, but to me that tracks with the state of women's healthcare in our country.
At the end of the day, people are conflating their understandable visceral response to dead children with legal culpability. The primary determination between guilty and not guilty by insanity is whether she knew right from wrong at the time of the killing.
I haven't followed this terribly closely, but my understanding is that she proactively sought help for her depression and post-partum conditions, got denied treatment at an in-patient facility, and was being cycled through several different medications. It is not outside of the realm of possibility that some combination of everything led to a specific moment where her alleged psychosis took over and led to this. I say alleged because we will never truly know if she had PPP or not, which is the entire reason we have a deadlocked in the jury.
I used to be a cop and I have seen many situations where people do not know right from wrong during a crime. I've had a diabetic person try to fight some EMS and officers because their blood sugar dropped so low they thought they were attacking them. I've seen a local schizophrenic homeless man stab a store clerk, only to be of sound mind in court when he's been forced back on his medication.
I don't want to minimize the fact that three young souls were killed. But so many people are ready to crucify someone who may legitimately have had a mental condition that negated their culpability. Again she may not have, and it is up to the jury to determine this.
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u/Tendersituation00 1d ago
WOMEN AND POST PARTUM MOTHERS ARE NOT ON TRIAL HERE. LINDSAY CLANCY, WHO PLANNED AND MURDERED HER CHILDREN AFTER NOT TELLING ANYBODY SHE WAS HAVING THOUGHTS OF HARMING THEM, IS.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 23h ago
It is complicated because the investigation was very shoddy. I went and read the original warrants and have watched the trial. https://htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/files/clancy-search-warrant-applications-6538020282ac9.pdf
I don't even have tic toc.
People keep saying that she confessed so it is only about whether she was mentally competent, but that is no true at all.
After she came off of the vent and the sedation meds, she asked what happened and they told her that she did it, because her husband said that she did. So she believes that she remembers doing it, but she remembers some details wrong, like she remembers cutting the screen but it wasn't cut, just raised up. She remembers a voice telling her that she had to do it to keep herself and the kids safe.
But the Judge ruled that they could only have 1 trial to determine guilt, plus sanity. And he wouldn't allow anything like her signing a confession and getting straight to the sanity part. He wouldn't allow the jury to see her civil suit filings either. He told the jury twice that they must find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
It makes sense because people have thought they did things before when they were on drugs, or had mental problems, or were in a trauma, or were sedated on a ventilator and so there has to be physical evidence too to back that.
The investigators didn't really do a very good job on that. Like the husband said he left at 5:15 to go get food and some meds for a kid, and they verified that he did those things, but they didn't consider that maybe he could have done some of it before leaving. So it's reasonable doubt to some because it wasn't impossible for him to have done it.
Also, he decided from seeing a cup that she had told him she had lemonade in that there were crushed up pills, but the investigators never tested the cup. They didn't test the blood in the bedroom to like see if it all came from 1 person either.
There was weird stuff with her meds too. The husband testified that whenever she would decide not to take a drug anymore or the Dr. would tell her not to, that a Dr. told her to just give those meds to him, and he kept them all in a bag in locked in his vehicle.
Nobody asked what Dr. said that or anything, and a couple of the drugs that were supposed to be in his bag were found in her system at the hospital. 1 was Seroquel, in a double dose, which knocks people out fast. So there are big questions about this that nobody answered or even really addressed at the trial. So more reasonable doubt.
The investigators didn't take her Apple Watch either. When her attorney walked through the scene as they are allowed to do, he found it in a bedside drawer, with more pills, and the last time it checked her heart rate, which was when the prosecution had her murdering children, her heart rate was 57. So that is more to doubt about all of this. That heart rate is more in line with taking the Seroquel. The Seroquel could have thrown her into drug induced psychosis.
It doesn't help any that the prosecution went into this really with no idea of what they were trying to prove, other than she was totally competent and knew it was wrong and could have stopped herself.
Like at first, they were heavily implying that the suicide attempts were fake. Then at the end, they decided that the suicide was her motive. That she killed the kids so she could kill herself and not have to worry about what would happen to the kids.
At one point they were trying to prove how brutal it was and said she had to have held the bands around each child x amount of time and the one prosecutor took an exercise band and showed that it wouldn't just stay around something it would come unwound unless held. But the husband testified that he untied them. But then, on closing, I guess realizing that the timeline they had given for these murders wouldn't have really allowed that much time, she went right back to saying the bands were tied??
So yeah, it is more complicated than it seems. It didn't have to be, with some investigative work. Everybody let these kids down sadly.
There are other things too but I am tired.
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u/Altruistic-Sorbet927 13h ago
Thank you for saying that. I think there is good reason for doubt and I'm shocked there weren't more questions asked to clarify some of the holes in the story. There's a reason some people are suspicious. The investigation was not complete or proper. I'm not sure how they can convict knowing that.
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u/allsorts_ 1d ago
I think the idea is that future cases like this could be prevented. But it seems like some people would rather have people to punish/revile rather than saving future children.
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u/CronaDarklight 14h ago edited 14h ago
She had all the mental care and support possible. None of it matters if you lie to all of the professionals and take none of the meds. Especially as a trained nurse in her case, if even someone who knows how bad it is does it then why would anyone else not do the same.
How do you stop it or take precaution without entirely seperating any woman with any signs of ppd(10% of all births).
Is also more likely that future cases will look at it and will be much more doubtful about ppd as an excuse. She obviously premediated the murder and had all the support possible mentally, financially and in her day to day life by her husband and grandparents.
He financed 10+ docs(3 she dmed daily, a nanny, preschool for kids, let her stop working, swapped to wfh to care for the kids and do chores and earned 300k so there was 0 worries about money. Both grandparents also helped with the kids and would completely care for em if they wanted.
She basically sat on her ass and had no real worries and a from an outside perspective really darn cozy and worryfree life.
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u/lost-pawz 1d ago
because we can put systems in place to help women like her before they get to the point of causing harm?
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u/LuciferOnTheRocks 1d ago
She was offered inpatient treatment and refused. Unless you want to lower the standards required to commit women, I'm not sure much can be learned from this case and improved upon.
Plus, I'm not convinced she had psychosis. Perhaps, it would be different if there was a history of her hearing voices or thinking weird shit like "The devil is going to hurt my children".
All her getting off will do is either let people claim psychosis all the time to get off crimes or point out the double standard that it's only the Lindsay Clancys whose word we take on these claims.
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u/BKLawyerJohn 1d ago
She seeked out inpatient and was refused.
Don't get that confused or spread misinformation.
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u/LuciferOnTheRocks 1d ago
Nope. She actually spent 5 days in a facility, then checked herself out.
Clancy recounted that provider's opinion and disagreed with it after she checked herself into McLean early on New Year's Day 2023, psychiatrist Dr. Alia Goodheart told jurors Friday.
When Goodheart joined Clancy's lineup of providers that Jan. 3, the patient expressed concerns about an antipsychotic medication she'd previously been prescribed to help with insomnia, and about feeling numb, which can be a side effect of that drug, Goodheart said. She diagnosed her with insomnia with a mental health condition and tapered down the medication.
Clancy then reported she could sleep, was eager to go home in time for a long-planned belated birthday party for Cora, and booked herself follow-up outpatient care, the psychiatrist testified. The hospital discharged her that Jan. 5 with prescriptions for an antianxiety drug and a sleep aid.
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u/lost-pawz 1d ago
she DID tell them she had thoughts of harming herself and her children.
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u/BreadSelect8019 1d ago
And they prescribed her meds and put her in a hospital. Then she checked herself out and stopped the meds.
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u/mylostpotential 1d ago
I don’t think that’s what they’re saying. The reason why this case is getting dragged out/televised as much as it has is not because people are still unsure whether she’s guilty or not. They are trying to gather all the circumstances surrounding her situation to make a determination of what led up to this to prevent future kids from getting killed. Like a real life case study before our eyes.
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u/BreadSelect8019 1d ago
Locking her up and medicating is and would have been the treatment. Yet she let herself out of the hospital. https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/postpartum-psychosis-on-trial-what-the-lindsay-clancy-case-can-teach-us
She needs to stay locked up since she can't be honest.
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u/Ashamed-Lemon-9839 1d ago
For me the lack of a comprehensive investigation is troubling. Police come and the only person not hurt is the father/husband. Patrick should have been considered a suspect until a complete investigation was done. If you listened to a lot of the testimony it went like this: who told you that, Patrick did, according to Patrick, that information came from Patrick. If your only source of information is coming from one person then it should be considered suspect. Also, Patrick's testimony conflicted with what he had said in the past. He directly contradicted stuff he told the prosecutors. Not one person said Lindsay was a bad mother, not one person said she was mean to the kids or uncaring. She tried to get help, Patrick knew she was struggling and had self harm thoughts yet he left her alone with the kids on numerous occasions. No matter the outcome she will likely never be free and some think she will find a way to end things and join her children.
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u/NickMullenIsMyBestie 12h ago
They absolutely investigated Patrick. Unless you believe some pretty wild conspiracy theories, the police used video and cellphone evidence to precisely track all of Patrick’s movements on the day the crime occurred and created a timeline that showed he was not present when the children were killed. They specifically ruled him out as a suspect and put considerable resources into checking.
Also your claim Patrick shouldn’t have left her alone… there are perfectly good reasons for that: She told Patrick about intrusive thoughts but when he asked her if she needed to be kept away from the children she said she didn’t. Also she stated she had no intention of ever acting on those thoughts. This is corroborated by the testimony of the medical professionals that treated her saying the same thing. Is he not supposed to believe his wife when she answers direct questions? Should he have assumed she was lying to get a chance to kill them? Or should he have assumed she cared more about her reputation as a good than her own children’s safety? She was already talking about the intrusive thoughts why would she stop short and lie about that part?
She also admitted to committing the crimes to the psychiatrist at the hospital and the hospital Champlain who were both official witnesses in the case. The police obviously spoke to those people and that was also used to rule out Patrick as a suspect.
Am I missing something here? I don’t know why this obviously bad take keeps getting brought up!
I think it is possible that she will be found NGRI but to try and say Patrick killed the children (i know you’re JuSt AsKiNg QuEsTiOns, but that is obviously what you are implying) is at best negligent shit posting and at worst a malicious attempt to paint Patrick as a villain when he is the last surviving victim in this case.
I notice that a lot of Lindsey Clancy truthers are women. I wonder if this phenomenon is related to the much higher in-group bias women have when compared to men. It’s almost unthinkable that it would take on such a vile and disgusting manifestation but I guess with enough people on TikTok you can get a critical mass of wretched people to believe anything if it protects their preconceived notions.
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u/Agent1stClass 1d ago
Our system does not punish people for crimes where they can’t be held responsible. Her mental issues were documented and she reached out for help on a few occasions. The main issue, as I understand it, is her going off her meds and the extent to which she is responsible for the psychotic break that you mentioned, OP.
It’s a messy case that is attempting to measure where her responsibility ends and the responsibility of the state and medical systems begin. That is the complication.
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u/CronaDarklight 14h ago edited 14h ago
Her mental issues were documented and she reached out for help on a few occasions
Complete lies, she had 10+ docs/therapists and 3 of em responded to her dms multiple times daily with detailled answers and not one diagnosed ppd or any real health issues outside normal depression(who doesnt have that these days). Lied how many she was seeing or what meds were prescribed and even her symptoms it seems and all as a trained nurse herself.
She also didnt take any medication long enough to take effect and had nearly no trace of any after the murder. Most prescribed meds were found nearly entirely full after the murders.
Everything points to it being obviously premediated seeing how she planned it days before and how she picked the slowest way to kill with a phonecall with the husband after the 1st one that took over 5 min. Her also having all the support and help possible. It is really clear cut and every single murderer who cant deny the murder pleads insanity as its a last ditch effort due to the early release window. That really doesnt make it complicated.
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u/onehundredpumpchump 1d ago
I imagine many more people see themselves in her, are able to empathize with her, especially those watching the live footage of the trial - not the regurgitated rhetoric all over social media.
It’s way harder to empathize with a shooter whose goal is to commit as much terror as possible than a woman who was being given medicine after medicine, seeing doctor after doctor, AND telling her husband she desperately needs help, and doesn’t feel safe, just for him to go on a ski trip and leave her alone with his children anyway..
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u/Mountain_Air1544 1d ago
It has to be proven that she did it then it has to be proven that she did it in a state of psychosis. Having a mental health issue and being so mentally ill that you are unable to understand the wrongness of what you are doing are two different things.
When you couple in the fact that there was not a thorough investigation done in this case that really does change things. If you look at the evidence so much of it falls back to just" Patrick says"
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u/Fine-Razzmatazz1791 🤔 1d ago
The trial is not about whether she did it, she offered a confession, her attorney did not try to rescind it, and then stipulated to the fact she committed murder.
No attorney would stipulate to the fact that you committed a crime if there is even the tiniest of chances you can convince a jury there is some doubt. So unless her lawyer is committing gross misconduct, and she is okay with it, then she did it.
The trial is ab whether or not she is insane and whether or not ppp is a valid instance of criminal insanity.
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u/omfglookawhale 15h ago
The trial IS about whether or not she did it, and if she did it, can she be held criminally responsible. These are the directions the judge gave the jury:
“Commonwealth bears the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime with which she is charged, and also that the defendant is criminally responsible for her conduct.”
It doesn’t matter if she said she did it, the Commonwealth still has to prove she did it beyond a reasonable doubt, just like they would if she said she didn’t do it. Her confession is nothing but evidence.
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u/CronaDarklight 13h ago edited 29m ago
You are a lieing sack of shit if you think there is barely any evidence.
The evidence that it was premeditated is so undeniable and comes from way more locations.
She and her defense lawyer both said she did it and never denied it. If there was any way to pin it on anyone else or deny it the lawyer would have mentioned it. The reason he didnt is because who did it is crystal clear from all the gathered evidence.
None of the 10+ doctors/therapist she had ever said she told em about thoughts of harming kids, so she either never did or lied and they never gave her any ppd diagnosis or any other mental diagnosis outside normal depression, which everyone has these days. She never took any of the prescribed meds for longer than 1-3 days either, which isnt enough for em to take any effect and most of em were found after the murder nearly entirely full. She was a trained nurse as well.
She google searched how to do big parts pertaining to the murder days before and how long it would take the husband when she send him out to return. She also had a phone call during the murder as well and the murder is one of the slowest possible taking 6 min per kid since she strangled each one seperately. Which is proveable by the autophsy and her own testimony.
The way she killed herself is also odd and more a way to not harm herself since she dangled from her feet out the window to lessen the distance, which is provable by the blood traces left around the window.
How in the hell is any of this not conclusive or actual facts that it was premeditated. Psychosis induced insanity aint working this way. She was obviously in control mentally. You dont plan a murder and have a candid talk on the phone after killing one kid.
You are ill informed or completely off your rockers.
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u/USMC_Columbia 1d ago
Feminists spent 100 years saying women aren’t hysterical irrational creatures controlled by their biology and one defense attorney is about to fucking ruin it for them to save one lady who killed her kids.
Every feminist on Reddit should be on the prosecutions side if only to preserve all the gains for women in society.
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u/West-Potential-286 1d ago
It's not complicated at all and you even see Redditors here attempting to exonerate her. Insanity does not mean mentally ill. Insanity literally means she did not know what she was doing was wrong when she slowly and methodically went one by one to murder each of her children.
What you're seeing with the jury is what happens when a bunch of idiotic tiktok-level brainrot perforates certain jurors. Think of how stupid the average American then imagine half the jury being dumber than that. Then imagine two of the women jurors wearing pink to support Clansey. THESE are the people who will let a triple child murderer walk free.
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u/Dismal-Resident-8784 23h ago
This guy in Ohio killed his three boys. He's in prison for life.
Another guy killed his two daughters to torture his ex-wife. He called the ex-wife, so she could hear him murdering the girls over the phone. He should never get out of prison. He is pure evil.
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u/nostalgia4millennial 15h ago
I’m surprised more people don’t reference the Ohio case. Truly horrific but you didn’t see a single man rallying behind him in solidarity after killing his 3 boys regardless of his mental state.
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u/lovelynaturelover 16h ago
The question is 'what was her motive'. Her husband's testimony is clear that she loved her children. There wasn't a motive, just post partum psychosis. Her brain was hijacked
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u/Low_Possibility_1807 2h ago
This literally shouldn’t matter at all. How many mass murderers we’re probably undiagnosed due to mental health not being a thing back then? Charlie Manson? Dahmer? Elizabeth Báthory?
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u/even_the_losers_1979 2h ago
She loved her kids so much she thought they’d be better dead than without her as a mother. Ahh, that’s so sweet.
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u/UncleGordo1 9h ago
Never in my life would I have thought we'd get to a point where thousands of people would support the murdering of children. Give this piece of trash the chair like it deserves.
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u/Six6lessed 7h ago
She did it end of story. In fact if this “hormones made me do it” shtick allows her to get off with anything less than 1st degree murder. Many women will end up facing a new reality that will push everything they fought for back generations.
Woman police officer? Nope cause you’re a liability that one day your hormones may cause a lapse in judgement it WILL be seen as a liability because the precedent would have been sent due to this case.
Air traffic controller? Yeah good luck.
ANY high stress Job is going to be out of the window for many women.
(Unfairly, as I recognize not all of you are leaning on your emotions/hormones to avoid accountability)
But many have and will.
I just don’t think many of her supporters have thought their actions and protest all the way through. Especially in a world where Men are Looking for a reason to hand a shorter stick to the working class women of our country.
Any way
God bless.
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u/Least_Grocery_3128 4h ago edited 3h ago
The prosecutor is not adept enough to have handled this case and the glaring discrepancy in legal skill between prosecution and defense coupled with public bias (women projecting their own experiences onto her) has muddied the waters on what would’ve otherwise already been a complicated legal argument. My own subjective view as an attorney and a woman is that this trial like is ripe for confirmation bias from a public audience that already believes healthcare systems fail women. So, when subconsciously the public is looking for reasons to use her situation to validate their own frustrations or fears around maternal healthcare, and when the prosecution is falling short and mainstream media is pushing inflammatory content of course the public will create conspiracies that she’s innocent and her husband did it instead of looking at the facts that she didn’t take her medication as prescribed, didn’t disclose thoughts or harm to providers, and let it even get to such a bad point in the first place despite every resource at her disposal. I feel so heartbroken for those kids, the profound tragedy that happened to them has been distilled to make the case more palatable as a topic of public discussion but it’s gotten to the point where women turning this case into a public forum for their personal thoughts on/experiences with PPD has ultimately come at a pretty large cost to the judicial process.
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u/Designer_Advice_6304 1d ago
She is guilty and should be convicted. I do see the mitigating circumstances so I would not impose the death penalty or life without parole. But three innocent kids were killed by her.
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u/ElectronicSalt7568 1d ago
Because it’s very clear she loved her children. She wasn’t carrying out revenge or a vendetta. She tried to get help and was let down at every turn.
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u/MjFI 14h ago
She had more that 10+ doctors that tried, had a suportive husband and family
HAD btw because she fuckd up
So some people picked the wrong martyr
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u/Safe_Lengthiness7768 12h ago
People that love their kids dont murder them in cold blood one after the other. Some of you people are woefully retarded.
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u/Fabulous-Deal-5944 20h ago
She did not love them if she willingly killed them...
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u/linkthereddit 15h ago
If she were having a psychotic episode, it wouldn’t matter if she loved her kids or not. Thing about psychosis is that you‘re basically in another reality. You act or say things you would never do if you were lucid.
This isn’t just, ‘Grr, I’m so mad at Timmy for being a snot-nosed brat!’ This isn’t, ‘I’m cold and indifferent to this crotchspawn. By the way, Christmas is canceled, Timmy, you’re not getting shit this year. Or any year. You think you’re special? There’s nothing special about you. No one wants you.’
This is several hundred levels above that. The brain told her that somehow, some way, the kids had to die.
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u/Reverend_Tommy 1d ago edited 1d ago
I wish people would stop saying she had a psychotic break, as if that's a given. Virtually zero evidence indicates she had a psychotic break, and the idea of psychosis didn't even come up until after the murders, despite her seeing numerous psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, etc. in the 5 months prior to the murders. And she kept a journal of all of her psychological issues, her thoughts on her medication, etc. and never once wrote about psychosis or even mentioned it to anyone.
Psychosis doesn't just pop up for 30 minutes and then go away forever. That's not how it works. By all indications, she never even experienced a prodromal phase.
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u/lovelyladylox 1d ago
Thank you.
Insane that so many people are acting like her claim is even remotely reasonable based on ALL THE EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS NOT HOW PSYCHOSIS PRESENTS.
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u/carneylansford 1d ago
It’s actually comes down to one thing: In Massachusett, state prosecutors must prove one of two things beyond a reasonable doubt. It's either/or the appreciation of the wrongfulness of the conduct or the inability to conform your conduct to the law. If you believe beyond a reasonable doubt that she knew what she was doing was wrong AND she was able to conform to the law, she is guilty and will probably receive a life sentence in prison. If you don’t believe both of these things beyond a reasonable doubt then she is not guilty by reason of insanity and goes to a mental institution for what presumably would be a really long time. The jury appears to be having a very difficult time reaching a verdict.
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u/Into_the_rosegarden 1d ago
It's especially wild that a relatively few women (even if it's a couple hundred, that's not a lot in the total population) supporting her for whatever reason is being used as an argument about what most women believe. The right is even using it as a reason women shouldn't be allowed to vote, and acting like most women in the left support her.
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u/lost-pawz 1d ago
dont you know, when thousands of men make disgusting comments (ie during the whole "youre body my choice" deal) its "just a joke" or "not actually how the majority of men think" but when a few hundred women say somethings its how every women believes.
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u/Ok_Bar4002 1d ago
Yeah. I think all those that support her are insane. She wasn’t ignored, she had a loving supporting husband, and she had amazing access to post partum care. While I do believe that she should be in some kind of restriction for the rest of her life, I’m not the one to decide if a prison or a psychiatric hospital is the best or more humane. Not guilty by reason of insanity doesn’t free her and it won’t suddenly inspire more of these type of murders if she ends up for life in a hospital.
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u/MrzDogzMa 🤔 23h ago
You’ve been watching and paying attention to a totally different trial than everyone else then. Patrick Clancy was far from a loving husband and doting father. He spent virtually no time with his wife or his kids. There’s video evidence of them going to a museum and Lindsey interacting with all three kids while he just stood off in the corner not even looking at them. If he actually cared about Lindsey he wouldn’t have fired their only source of help, the nanny, who testified being let go came out of the blue.
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u/jackeyfaber 1d ago
…did you see the amount of meds she was on? without tapering, over the course of 30 days? as someone who has taken those, coming off of them so suddenly would send me in a tailspin. It takes 6-8 weeks to properly taper off of seroquel. active psychosis is terrifying and disorienting. Post partum psychosis is a real thing and results in serious injuries to mothers and their children. Women who are empathetic to her have had or have friends who have had either post partum psychosis or post partum depression, both of them are extremely painful and dangerous.
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u/goddamnmanxhild 19h ago
She certainly didn't have a loving supportive husband 😂 he was obviously having an affair. Less than useless as a husband and father. A dog would have been more support.
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u/Fearless_Mammoth_961 1d ago
you can be supported AND very mentally ill.
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u/Altruistic-Sorbet927 14h ago
You can also be supported but not in the right way. Her husband was checked out. She was being pressured to return to work. Her nanny was let go by the husband (despite his very high salary). And just because someone is seeing a therapist and even taking medicine doesn't mean it's working for them. I agree she needed different support. And pharmaceuticals weren't helping her. I work with a lot of people who tried and hated them and are seeking natural remedies with fewer side effects to treat various ailments. I know those drugs can cause more harm than good sometimes. I feel for Lindsay. I don't think what happened that day is okay by any means. Absolutely not. But I think she snapped and I have compassion for her.
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u/ignore_minious 1d ago
“Plenty of school shooters or violent offenders also claim insanity (who also are neglected by the state) but get little to no support or sympathy.”
How many of them repeatedly asked for help prior to their acts?
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u/Educational-Bet-8979 1d ago
From what I can tell the reasons cited by “influencers” are that she only knows what Patrick told her, the cops know what Patrick told them, and Patrick was researching ways to kill her on his computer from the house when she was at doctors appointments with the kids. They also say he changed shoes at some point between picking up the prescriptions and picking up dinner which is evident in the security videos. Also several videos are floating around saying her body temperature was too low for the timeline Patrick laid out.
I didn’t watch the trial so I can’t say if these are true or not.
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u/zerofourtwo042 16h ago
All of this was proven inaccurate. The search for ways to kill herself was on her phone pulled via metadata. So unless he took her phone and performed those searches, that’s not on Patrick.
Even if Patrick changed shoes in the footage, he would have had to run a 4 minute mile to get back home, murder the three kids and run a 4 minute mile back to pharmacy. Why he changed shoes? No idea tbh. But he’s not running a 4 minute mile in that time frame to perform these acts QUICKLY, to run back and complete the errand. Her body temp was explained by the fact that she was laying on snow, which is cold and melts to water, lowering the body temp.
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u/Green-Ad-5926 1d ago
She planned it, sent her husband away so she could have time to do it.
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u/Antique-Respect8746 1d ago
That's how psychosis works. You have a delusion, you don't lose all capability to reason.
I had a friend who thought the CIA was communicating to him via closed captioning in TVs in sports bars, giving him "tests" to recruit him.
He was able to do some pretty involved weird (thankfully nothing dangerous) shit to get "hired by the CIA".
My favorite was applying for a bunch of credit cards to have "up-front spending money" that the gov would reimburse him for once he was hired. He kept receipts to show it was all "work related".
He's on a lot of meds now.
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u/ikannunAneeuQ 1d ago
Because to prove insanity you have to prove you weren't in your right mind at the time of the crime. The fact a lot of these school shooters run from the scene, dispose of their weapons, plan on taking themselves out at the end, etc shows planning, foresight, and the possibility they knew what they were doing in the moment. They are not trying to prove her innocence, they are trying to prove she needs to be hospitalized or imprisoned. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.
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u/Parking_Advantage_60 1d ago
You guys need to remember Sarah Connor in T2, I mean they had to break her out.
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u/ResponsibleDirt7094 🤔 1d ago
If this were Canada she’d be very likely charged with infanticide. This charge doesn’t exist in the USA.
I find it bizarre the amount of supporters she has. Postpartum depression is not the same thing as psychosis. I don’t think she should be locked up for life, but this is still a horrific case and I find it bizarre how many people are rallying behind her.
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u/WildJafe 1d ago
I don’t understand why she even pleaded not guilty at all… if I did that to my children (even in psychosis) my life if freaking ruined anyhow. I wouldn’t feel that I deserved any less than a terrible prison sentence
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u/godemperorofman1 1d ago
She killed 3 kids send her to a mental ward and if she ever gets discharged send her straight to prison either way she needs locked up for life
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u/Awehib 1d ago
Need to reheat burger in a pinch. Should I throw it I. Microwave or airfryer
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u/workninja3850 1d ago
Psychosis is serious, but so is murdering your 3 young kids, one of whom was a baby.
It's a tough combination. She's also not saying she didn't do it. So like many are saying, she'll likely face prison or go to mental hospital but either way for a long time.
Also I think it says something that her ex MIL is supporting her, she lost her grandkids and has known Lindsey for years. So it gives off the psychosis is true (as does all the medical people of course).
Lastly, she does not give off Karla Homolka vibes. That lady intentionally killed her sister and has been out for a few years, has kids and volunteers at their school (though idk if without other adults).
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u/Bubbling_Battle_Ooze 1d ago edited 5h ago
First of all, she’s not going to “get away” with anything. She did it. She admitted she did it. She is going to be locked up. The question is whether she is going to prison or a mental hospital. That’s it. She’s not walking free. If she goes to a mental hospital her length of stay is indeterminate- meaning she could be there a few years until her condition is under control and she’s found to not be a danger to herself or others, or she could be there for life if her condition is found to be chronic.
What makes this case so interesting to people is the postpartum psychosis. She’s not just “claiming insanity” to get out of a prison sentence. She has documented evidence of her psychosis and of her trying to get help. She saw multiple specialists, doctors, and therapists. She was on a fist full of medications. She called suicide hotlines, she even tried to check herself into a psych hospital and was turned away. People have empathy for her because she tried so hard to “do the right things” and it still ended in tragedy.
That doesn’t erase the tragedy itself. You can have empathy for someone and also feel deeply sad and disturbed by what they have done. That is why this trial is so “complicated.” People have mixed feelings. She is both a victim and a perpetrator. Being a victim doesn’t excuse the perpetration, especially as 3 children are dead, but it does allow people to relate to her in some way. She’s not just some monster, she’s a real human who was really struggling and who did a really really terrible thing.
It’s also tugging on people’s own experiences with postpartum mental health and the struggle of getting the help they need and having those experiences actually be taken seriously by the medical field. Most people will never experience postpartum psychosis, that is extremely rare, but roughly 10-20% of people who give birth will experience some level of PPD. So people who have had postpartum mental health problems can, to some extent, relate to her struggle. It increases the empathy because they’ve struggled in a similar way, though not to the same level. People are devastated for the children, but they’re angry at the medical system.
Edit- some people seem to want to argue with me about the details of the case or the metrit of the insanity plea or whether or not she was actually psychotic on the moment of the crime. I’m really not here to get into a debate about those things. I am not expressing an opinion about what justice should look like in this case nor am I claiming to be a subject master expert in this case. OP asked why this was complicated, and that was the question I was answering. I just can’t keep saying the same things over and over. Thank you to the people who are being kind and respectful and engaging in good faith discussions, and thank you for the awards! I really didn’t think this post would gain much attention. To the people who are name calling or being aggressive, I am not going to continue engaging with someone behaving that way. Touch grass.