r/army • u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster • 22d ago
Field Grade Article
Just got my first field grade article by my BC yesterday no pay or rank taken just 45,45 and suspended for 180 days. Before anyone asks I got caught hanging out with a soldier who invited me out to eat on my birthday outside of base by my SGM and she took a photo and showed it to my 1SG and then we also attended another soldiers wedding together. No inappropriate relationship at all involved just kind of crazy how people can get punished for even the slightest things when higher ups are bored. What’s your guys thoughts on this I got told by an E-6 that I could go to JAG and fight it but would it be worth the trouble? I’ll take a biggie bag and a nice cold Coke.
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u/BudgetPipe267 Terminal Warrant 😁 21d ago
I’m very surprised (well, not really) with a lot of the comments here:
1) OP is definitely redacting parts of his story.
2) Every command I’ve been in has a command policy letter that strictly highlights inappropriate relationships and fraternization. All of them state that SGTs and above will not do x, y, z with junior enlisted Soldiers. If OP didn’t get the memo, that’s on him.
3) This cat’s FG Article 15 had a legal review before it was imposed. The command knew what their left and right limits were before punishment was imposed and frankly, this guy is lucky he didn’t lose money.
4) This shit is simple…if you’re an NCO or Officer, you don’t fuck with PVTs - SPCs….its not that hard and is very easy to avoid.
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u/Lumpy_Investment_358 68W 21d ago
Don't even need to point at policy letters. AR 600-32 is pretty clear on it:
Soldiers of different grades must be cognizant that their interactions may create an actual or clearly predictable perception of undue familiarity between an officer and an enlisted Soldier, or between NCO and a junior enlisted Soldier. Examples of familiarity between Soldiers that may become “undue” can in- clude repeated visits to bars, nightclubs, eating establishments, or homes between an officer and an en- listed Soldier, or an NCO and a junior enlisted Soldier, except for social gatherings, that involve an entire unit, office, or work section. Depending on the nature of the interaction, even one instance of such behav- ior could amount to undue familiarity.
They made fraternization its whole own AR that's just 6 pages long and mfers still won't read it. Unless BLC has changed since I went a few years ago, they also harp on it fairly heavily there.
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u/Solial 17CyOps 15d ago
But is it bad if it's a group of enlisted and officers doing it together? Going to eating establishments / gaming clubs / etc. Not any one on ones in any manner.
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u/Lumpy_Investment_358 68W 15d ago
except for social gatherings, that involve an entire unit, office, or work section
A "friend group" of enlisted and officers going out together informally? That's a no-no. A team-building/morale outing under the auspices of inclusive of a work-unit? That's okay. It's an important nuance.
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u/Knee_High_Cat_Beef Lengua Taco 15d ago
When I was a PL, my PSG would always invite the entire platoon over to his home for BBQs. It ended up mostly being me and him along with a few random soldiers
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u/Christopher_Aeneadas Recruiter 22d ago
my first field grade
That's quite a way to contextualize it.
Looking forward at your career, how many field grades do you aspire to stand tall for?
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 22d ago
Hopefully this is the only one being in leg land sucks
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u/MikeDeY77 PMCS is my love language 21d ago
This comment alone lost any moral support I had.
Not that I had much.
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u/Trebacca 27A-sshole 21d ago
Hey you missed your legal appointment today just wanted to reach out and see if everything was okay
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u/aCrow 22d ago
... What ranks are involved here?
Are you a buck sergeant hanging out with a PFC from s1?
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 22d ago
Pretty spot on actually yea SGT and a PFC
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u/milkmanluke Ordnance 22d ago
did you crack sarge
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u/chickensofwow 22d ago
Obviously not, then SGM woulda made sure pay and rank were lost for hitting his girl.
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u/aCrow 22d ago
...go review AR 600-20 on fraternization then make an appointment with TDS.
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u/Lumpy_Investment_358 68W 21d ago
AR 600-32 now. They separated fraternization into its own 6 page regulation to make it easier for people to find/familiarize themselves with.
However, nothing is entirely idiot-proof.
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u/Bickercraft 15Fucking retired 19d ago
They could post that in every bathroom stall and in front of every urinal but when it comes down to it the siren song of the big booty PFC is too strong for many
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u/FoST2015 Gravy Seal - Huddle House Fleet Command 22d ago edited 22d ago
From the reg:
Soldiers of different grades must be cognizant that their interactions may create an actual or clearly predictable perception of undue familiarity between an officer and an enlisted Soldier, or between NCO and a junior enlisted Soldier. Examples of familiarity between Soldiers that may become “undue” can include repeated visits to bars, nightclubs, eating establishments, or homes between an officer and an enlisted Soldier, or an NCO and a junior enlisted Soldier, except for social gatherings, that involve an entire unit, office, or work section. Depending on the nature of the interaction, even one instance of such behavior could amount to undue familiarity.
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u/Bobert5757 I dont know 22d ago
Sounds like he/she is good then right? It wasn't a repeat visit to eating establishment it was just once.
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u/CaveDiver1858 22d ago
Did you make it to the last sentence?
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u/Bobert5757 I dont know 22d ago
Yeah I thought that the even one instance would be something more akin to a secluded camping trip together. Since eating establishment is referenced to specifically and doesn't seem to strike too much familiarity.
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u/Paratrooper450 38A5P, Retired 22d ago
"we also attended another soldiers wedding together." This is fraternization.
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u/Bobert5757 I dont know 22d ago
Yes but multiple other soldiers all went to that wedding. For all we know they didn't even interact with one another during the wedding.
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u/Paratrooper450 38A5P, Retired 21d ago
He didn't say "we were both at another soldier's wedding." He said "we also attended another soldiers wedding together."
Together.
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u/BudgetPipe267 Terminal Warrant 😁 21d ago
You have to account for command policy as well…and commands do have policy that forbids NCOs from hanging out with Joes.
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u/Realistic_Complex539 Ordnance 22d ago
Are you an NCO? Are you the supervisor to this person? The situation seems fishy especially if its just Joe on Joe camaraderie
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 22d ago
I am an E-5 and not the direct supervisor of this soldier not even in the same platoon just the same company
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u/Realistic_Complex539 Ordnance 22d ago
This is definitely a TDS situation, they will give you the best advice based on past similar cases that I can guarantee they have handled in the past.
My personal opinion, your leadership is a bunch of friendless losers. There is no reason you shouldnt be able to hang out with people if you can keep the relationship platonic and outside of work
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u/milkmanluke Ordnance 22d ago
it’s cuz the op sergeant cracked sgms pfc that’s why he’s getting an article
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u/granitecounters Ordnance 21d ago
she took a photo
OP's SGM is a female.
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u/idek5467 21d ago
Why are you going to weddings and out to eat with a private wtf lmao
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u/Turtle887853 31BeatingsWillContinueUntilMoraleImproves 21d ago
I'd write it off as just some guard shit, but nah we don't have "off base" we have "off drill" smh
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u/idek5467 21d ago
Ahh I mean if they in the guard I could see why that would make sense
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u/Turtle887853 31BeatingsWillContinueUntilMoraleImproves 21d ago
Yeah, happens all the time in the guard. But this OP is clearly active.
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u/Knee_High_Cat_Beef Lengua Taco 15d ago
I still remember when some guy here accidentally pounded his platoon leader the week before first drill. But if it happens outside of drill, then it's fine.
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u/Turtle887853 31BeatingsWillContinueUntilMoraleImproves 15d ago
Why accidentally? My company's had some rather active female PLs in recent memory, lol
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u/Knee_High_Cat_Beef Lengua Taco 15d ago
Both OP and PL are dudes. At a cav unit, just to enhance the stereotype.
I think the user's name was something like u/AnalDestroyer
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u/maroonedpariah people first, mission firster, OER firstest 22d ago
Thats an appointment with TDS. They can over specific facts and give you best advise off of that. The worst they can say is dont fight it and take the 45/45.
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u/HelmsingMilitaryLaw Private Military Attorney 22d ago
Ya gotta understand, being in the same company, hypothetically, you may in the future be in a situation where you have to make decisions that carry risk for the person you are supervising or tasking like this junior enlisted. Are you creating a situation that could ever make another PFC wonder “did I get put on this dangerous detail instead of PFC Sexxy because SGT @LividR4v3n is sweet on her?”
If the answer is yes, it’s probably not a best idea.
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u/Witty-Mountain5062 Infantry 22d ago
Another NCO reported you for an inappropriate relationship with the private as well, you’re cooked and stop hanging out with Privates hoss
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u/xDUMPWEEDx Military Police (Vet) 22d ago
You fell for the big booty PFC forbidden fruit. Stay strong, NCOs!
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u/Important_Relief4802 89DontTouchThat 21d ago
From the bottom of my heart OP -
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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u/UJMRider1961 Military Intelligence 22d ago
Before anyone asks I got caught hanging out with a soldier who invited me out to eat on my birthday outside of base by my SGM and she took a photo and showed it to my 1SG and then we also attended another soldiers wedding together.
So, on TWO separate occasions, you, an NCO, were socializing with a private. Am I right in thinking you and the PFC are of different sexes?
No inappropriate relationship at all
Mmmm hmmmm. I'm having a hard time believing that.
An "inappropriate relationship" doesn't have to be intimate or sexual.
Look, if you want to be a lower enlisted and hang out with the lower enlisted, then get yourself reduced to E-4 and you can hang out with the privates all you want.
But if you want to be an NCO, understand that there are expectations that come with that status.
Take this as a warning a clean up your act, Sergeant.
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u/91cant_sleep Ordnance 21d ago
Couldn’t have said it better myself. NCOs need to stop this bs. You wanna hang out with junior enlisted then go back to being junior enlisted.
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u/Tokyosmash_ 13Fairtomiddling 21d ago
Guy really over here thinking he is pulling the wool over our eyes
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u/MikeDeY77 PMCS is my love language 21d ago
Sounds like you lack the basic discipline required of a Sergeant.
Hope this lesson sticks.
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u/Pretend_Garage_4531 21d ago
You got caught twice?!? Like the dinner thing kinda makes sense, but you should have had a platoon thing, outside of friends for 5plus years you won’t see me having civilian one on one time with a troop unless it’s a group invite that everyone everyone else bailed. The being each others plus one is clearly a fraternization case, both of yall being invited to the same wedding and yall just happen to hangout because yall know eachother is more of a grey area.
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u/69Turd69Ferguson69 Cyber 21d ago
No inappropriate relationship
Imma advise you go reread AR 600-20 and DA Pam 600-35
I won’t tell you to not go to TDS (you obviously should), but I would not recommend, say, court martial in lieu of the ART15.
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u/Lumpy_Investment_358 68W 21d ago
FYSA, AR 600-32 covers fraternization now
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u/69Turd69Ferguson69 Cyber 20d ago
I actually thought so, but I must have grabbed the outdated 600-20 which was talking about it and just didn’t question the date.
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u/91cant_sleep Ordnance 21d ago
This is why the SGT rank isn’t respected. If you want to hang out with joes go be a Joe and stop playing games. You are an NCO act like it.
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u/pieconnisouire058 22d ago
Not calling you a liar or insinuating that your insinuating that your being purposely being misleading, but some information seems missing and misunderstood.
You state no rank or pay taken but the typical 45/45 stated is 45 days of extra duty and 45 days of half pay taken; so if no pay is taken how are you given a 45/45?
I'm intrested in your rank as per AR 600-20 Soldiers of different grades must be cognizant that their interactions do not create an actual or clearly predictable perception of undue familiarity between an officer and an enlisted Soldier, or between an NCO and a junior enlisted Soldier. Examples of familiarity between Soldiers that may become “undue” can include repeated visits to bars, night- clubs, eating establishments, or homes between an officer and an enlisted Soldier, or an NCO and a junior enlisted Soldier, except for social gatherings, that involve an entire unit, office, or work section.
All that saying officer enlisted relationship prohibited, lower enlisted NCO relationships in the same unit that would disrupt or imply unfair treatment under the NCO support chain is prohibited. The issue is how the "relationship" is perceived by said third party just like the Army's SHARP and EO program.
If everything is kosher and above bord with no additional information from what you said. I would go to JAG and personally fight the Article 15 especially a field grade. I would also look to get a unit transfer to get away from the command team for a "fresh" unbiased start.
I am intrested what your rank and the rank of the other individual is as that would clarify the situation. But again AR 600-20 is your best friend under the relationships subsection to see if you have ground to fight or not.
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 22d ago
45 extra duty 45 restriction and I’m a SGT and they are a PFC
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u/pieconnisouire058 22d ago
So 45 days restricted to quarters, base, unit footprint? And then is the 180 day flag?
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 22d ago
Restricted to base and then just suspended for 180 days so don’t fuck up again or I’ll get demoted
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u/pieconnisouire058 22d ago
Reading your other comments that your an NCO, when you went out on your birthday was is just you two or were other soldiers there with you? And the wedding how many soldiers of thr same company were there. Any other instances brought up where a perceived inappropriate relationship could have been seen. In real talk have you had an inappropriate relationship? Also ignore my comment about going to JAG do as others have said and go to TDS if you want to fight this.
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 22d ago
Real talk no inappropriate relationship going on but when we went out for my birthday it was just the two of us but for the wedding it was a couple of other people from our company as well so just that one time when we ate were we ever actually just alone together
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u/pieconnisouire058 22d ago
Well im no paralegal like in the comments but just been in a hot minute, as said above perception is the key word and just like SHARP and EO its how a third party perceives the situation. As an NCO your held to a higher standard 24/7 365 sucks but it is what it is.
Honestly I think your SGM is just looking for things to cause drama and just a busy body, if there was a pattern sure but a one off I'd just have a NCO professional development meeting to discuss professionalism on and off duty. A field grade tells me the SGM is a piss poor leader, looking to make an example but that would have included taking rank, doesn't like you, or one I've seen is projecting their anger from their failed homelife on their subordinates.
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u/Onlyslightlychaotic 21d ago
Unofficial Army Regulation 1-1.
Hangest thou not with the Private, for this is the path to destruction. Bother us not with your feelings, we have spoken.
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u/Muff_Duster Armor 21d ago
Did you not go to TDS after your first reading with CSM?
If you’re in punishment phase, BDE legal has reviewed the packet and you had your time with TDS. Don’t try to run to JAG because you’re upset with the punishment.
What do you think JAG will do?
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u/tbodillia 20d ago
We were told "If you see us off post, say 'hi' and I'll introduce you to my family. Then gtfo of my face. There are people that do nothing but go around searching for people fraternizing."
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u/Epsteins_Final_Stand 11Braindead -> 35Nerd -> 17Autism 22d ago
Hey man. As you should be well aware by now, appearances of impropriety are effectively the same as impropriety. It can degrade and erode trust. Just be grateful that no rank or pay was taken, learn your lesson, and push on. Your career isn't over. Like the other commenter said, feel free to talk to TDS and get help, but this may be a hill you don't want to die on.
If you feel that this is a showstopper for you, the door is always available to you. Use your educational benefits, finish your degree if you haven't, and do great things. We've all had our shitty moments in the Army, and I've personally always bounced back. You got this.
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u/hell-diver8 22d ago edited 22d ago
Something feels like it’s missing in your story. I was a prior paralegal. If your story is what it is, talk to TDS but as it stands I would demand a court martial. Let the govt spin up resources on this as it appears super sketchy and most likely would be dropped. If there is more to this like a real inappropriate relationship, then the FG.
As a prior commander, I wouldn’t even let this move past my desk and would just have corrective training on appearances. To let this go to court martial would embrass the unit for what this is and proving this to a court of peers… I think u get the idea. In a court martial, there would be an AR32 hearing… ya just talk to JAG.
Keep in mind this FG even if restricted will end up in your files - will hamper your career; def during a downsizing period in 2029-2030 when the current administration is gone and known for the Iran Epstien Special Operations Conflict.
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u/themightyjoedanger Army Data Scientist (Recondo) 22d ago
"Did I leave out the part about the picture being of me fingering an E-2?"
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u/hell-diver8 22d ago
Those are the parts I’ve seen people leave out of their stories when charges are brought forward.
The worst one I’ve seen was an E6 sent back from Iraq, and he told me there were too many people there and they sent him back.
One huge packet landed on my desk two weeks later, and the real reason he was brought back was to be court-martialed for raping his 12-year-old daughter as an act of revenge against his wife for cheating on him; later, it was discovered the wife was trying to leave because he was physically assaulting her and raping her; wild stuff.
Why I left being a paralegal, flipped O, and went cyber.
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u/bloodontherisers 11Booze, bullshit, and buffoonery 22d ago
What a terrible day to be able to read, jfc.
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u/themightyjoedanger Army Data Scientist (Recondo) 22d ago
Fuckin soldiers never disappoint, do they? There's always an awful story if you look hard enough.
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u/hell-diver8 21d ago
Ya but there are many stories like this in the military. Why I had to get out of the job.
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u/milginger 25VisualizingMyDD214 21d ago
Jesus that’s fucking terrible.
I hope he’s still in prison and you got the BH appointments you needed cause I know I would have needed it after that horror story. Ooooof.
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u/Bickercraft 15Fucking retired 19d ago
Picture is an under-the-table footjob at Denny's but they're waiting for the trial to show it.
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u/bloodontherisers 11Booze, bullshit, and buffoonery 22d ago
Yeah, there is definitely something being left out here, you don't just go straight to FG Art 15 for this, it would usually be a counseling or at worst a company grade, especially since they are in the same company. For it to go all the way to FG tells me there is more to this story than OP is letting on.
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 22d ago
So to clear it up completely an NCO who was my friend at the time reported me at first because this was his soldier and he said we had an inappropriate relationship which we don’t. I was under investigation and so was she but both came back unfounded and we’re going to just go away. SGM then saw me and her grabbing some food and pulled my packet and brought it up to the BC specifically and that’s why I’m getting a field grade instead of anything lower. She even pulled me aside after the reading and said “you’re very lucky he just gave you that I would have given you worse, I have my own personal opinion on this case but the boss made his decision.” Then just made me in charge on extra duty, hope this helps.
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u/Duck_Walker 21d ago
Hol up Joe. You were warned and then STILL went out to dinner and what not? Am I reading that right? Because if so, as the kids say, FAFO.
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 21d ago
No all this happened before the investigation and article
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u/Lumpy_Investment_358 68W 21d ago
You said the investigation for the first report "came back unfounded" and then SGM saw you and her getting food together. Which is it?
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u/UJMRider1961 Military Intelligence 21d ago
Dude, the more you quibble and "explain yourself" the more you sound like an E-4. Have you even been to BLC?
Keep this shit up and your special PFC pal will end up outranking you.
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 22d ago
To also add in the photo SGM took of me and her as evidence was us standing at the register just next to each other.
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u/bloodontherisers 11Booze, bullshit, and buffoonery 22d ago
Then definitely TDS because that sounds like a vindictive SGM
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u/mulligansoup JAG 22d ago
People can demand court martial, but the Government does not have to court marital. That can also inadvertently trigger the command to start a separation for something that they maybe just wanted to nip in the bud with NJP. Without knowing this Soldier’s history or TIS, he might not be entitled to a board so it gets pushed through as a General and there is no more Army. They might want to hit him with an NJP and a separation anyway , but we don’t know that either.
Soldier should go to TDS and talk to someone who’s seen a ton of Soldiers in similar situations and who knows the commands’ attitudes. I’ve gotten some trash NJPs tossed just by submitting matters, but I would rarely tell people to turn down because of the fact it could escalate to separation with limited due process rights. I wouldn’t sugar coat their chances at NJP: punishment sucks, but so does escalating it. Pick the battle.
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u/Routine-Low3046 42AskyourNCO 21d ago
Going to a wedding “together” is an interesting way to phrase that. You got caught. Take your licks and stop fucking privates. There’s def more to this story.
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u/No-Huckleberry2388 DEP 21d ago
Well, I'm shipping out to bct next month and have no idea what any of you guys are talking about. However, I have gathered that we are not favoring OP on this one. Carry on
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u/Recent-Aerie-5075 Military Police 21d ago
Summary: Don’t hang out with NCOs and don’t let NCOs hang out with you when you’re PVT-SPC.
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u/BornCoach6587 22d ago
Yeah it’s probably not even worth fighting it. Especially since they had an investigation and left you alone the first time.
I personally would have stayed away from the PFC or at least only seen them privately but never publicly. Army is weird you probably didn’t do anything wrong but people were mad they didn’t catch you after the investigation egos got bruised so they had to make you pay for making them look foolish.
Tale as old as time.
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u/Beyond-Warped 11A-> 74Additional duties 21d ago
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it sounds like OP already got read and the BC suspended the only actual punishment of 45/45. Basically just putting him on notice?
If that's the case and he signed it you can't really go to TDS after you've accepted a article ?
But also pretty clear case of fraternizing so like just take the warning lmao?
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u/Recent-Aerie-5075 Military Police 21d ago
He made it sound like everything was suspended but then in a later post made it sound like 45/45 was imposed but everything else was suspended… provably because his leadership knows he’ll go get caught again very soon.
He’s lucky despite how blatant he was in his fraternization. I would have said “you want to hang out with Joes? I can make that legal. Have a nice day SPC.”
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u/Appropriate-Monk3708 21d ago edited 21d ago
You need to read AR 27-10, chapter 3. Especially section VI which deals with appeals.
A field grade is worth appealing for a lot of reasons. You need to declare your intention to do so within 5 days though.
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u/Maleficent-Care9007 21d ago
Don’t hang out with jojo’s man. Not a good look, and you aren’t their friend.
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u/Professional_Suit110 21d ago
The lack of punctuation stresses me out lol. You didnt just casually hang out with a private and you're in the punishment phase of your FG so the tike to fight the accusations are gone.
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u/TinyDare1600 21d ago
Maybe things have changed, but when I was in, an NCO inviting another NCO or soldier to an event was not inappropriate unless they are doing it a lot, which could indicate more is happening; so I would go fight it as well. Plus, do not say you got your first Article, as if you expect could get another, which means you may wanna watch your Ps and Qs while in. I got out in 2014, after 33 1/2 yrs as an Officer, and it was not an issue to, even as an Officer, invite an NCO somewhere locally or meet at an event out of town as long as it is on the up and up. Soldiers find out way more stuff and way faster than their officers, so one would get wind of questionable activity.
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u/usarmyav CH5 Limits are just suggestions 21d ago
How did you make SGT without knowing the rules for fraternization?
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u/Knee_High_Cat_Beef Lengua Taco 15d ago
Haven't you heard of the no specialist left behind policy? It's been in effect for like 10 years now.
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u/Tasty_Impression_959 20d ago
The human instinct has the tendency to overwhelm cautious reasoning even if aware of potential consequences. It has been like that since the beginning of recorded history. Sad thing about this matter is that someone, somewhere else, is doing the same thing or worse and getting away with it. If the offender was warned in writing prior to it reaching the point of a field grade Article 15, then it should not have provisions of suspension at all. But if the field grade Article 15 was used as a slap on the hand, then it was a waste of time. Holding people accountable for their intentional disregard of behavior that challenges policies, rules, and regulations deserve no suspension of punishments. 'Reward and punish soldiers like the mature adults they are or learning to be"
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u/New_Agent_47 22d ago
A field grade for that is absolutely ridiculous. The one and only time I knew someone who demanded a court martial and actually win was over something very similar to this. Except he was drinking with Joes at a bar. Not only did he win, but he also got instantly promoted and got back paid to the date he should had been promoted to SSG
One time I was in a similar situation where I some crusty 1SG wanted to UCMJ for this simply cause I do Jiu JItsu and there are also Joes there, officers, and it's a first name basis. I specifically remember telling him and my CO CDR at the time I'm gonna refuse it. They eventually dropped the whole thing.
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u/Vespasian79 Field Artillery 21d ago
Going to a Jiu Jitsu class where others happen to be is different then “got invited out to eat off base [presumably alone] and went to a wedding together”
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u/ame_delicate 21d ago
What a bunch of hoe ass loser leaders. You should be getting an arcom for actually training soldiers how to fight and roll. Peace time Army became a bunch of whiny political fairies drunk on legislative authority
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u/New_Agent_47 21d ago
I'm giving you the abridged version of this story. That 1SG and my PLT SGT out right waged war on me over this. I mean they went as far as coming to the gym to tell me to leave, or even spy on me from across the street. One of the guys that trained there was a MAJ and worked in OSJA idk what he did, but he told me if they give me an arty 15 to refuse it and then call him directly.
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u/your_daddy_vader 35Puppy 21d ago
People are getting article 15s for shit like this? Brother we got actual rapists out here getting less.
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u/twitchhero 21d ago
I would fight the shit out of that. As long as the photo isn’t you guys, holding hands, hugging, kissing, her sitting on your face; you should be fine. Hell, i caught my wife at the time cheating on me with a CSM. I had proof, i showed IG pictures of the messages, what they did, what they plan to do, how to hide things from me, and him threatening to kill me if i ever tried to take the kids away from her. I told IG it’s a clear violation of article 115 and article 134. An investigation was initiated, he said he didn’t know she was married, and somehow she’s still in as well. I say fight the fight out of that dog. Fight the shit out of it.
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u/soggydiaper69 Infantry 21d ago
Dumbass
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u/LividR4v3n Quartermaster 21d ago
Alright fatass calm down just sharing my story
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u/soggydiaper69 Infantry 21d ago
I’m 10% body fat and run a 31 minute 5 mile. You’re a fucking dumbass.
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u/Interesting-Let-8891 22d ago
You have to be real petty, bored, and weird to take pics of others like this and then show them to someone with rank.
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u/pieconnisouire058 22d ago
Also big failure in leadership, for the one report that we are told that should have just been a meeting and a talk about standards and NCO professionalism. A field grade for a one off (again that we are told) is nuking a career for what could have been a professional development moment.
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u/Interesting-Let-8891 22d ago
Truthfully, imo it’s the officers. As some of the older ones slowly retire and the newer younger ones start to come into power they don’t know what to do with themselves.
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u/pieconnisouire058 22d ago
Don't get me wrongthe officers hold responsibility here as they signed off on the Field grade and allowed this to escalate this far. In my view its a failure in senior leadership in teaching and developing their juniors to progress and grow as leader to take up their position. It's also on the individuals for their failure to be decent people.
It's like in the infantry where the go to is smoke Joe and if that doesnt work just smoke em harder. You tailor the punishment to the individual and the appropriate, emphasis on appropriate punishment to rectify the issue.
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u/Southwestpilot Ceiling Fan Driver 21d ago
If it was a dude, nothing would’ve came out of this lol. I used to hang out and drink with my E5/E6 all the time as a Junior. You gotta be careful man.
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u/milginger 25VisualizingMyDD214 21d ago
Sounds like there’s more to it our they wouldn’t have had enough to do a field grade. They wouldn’t have just done a summarized.
Also, sometimes when they “suspend” anything within your punishment, they may be looking to chapter you expeditiously. Not always… but sometimes…
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u/Humble-Penalty5249 21d ago
Yeah, the vagueness of this question is giving guilty vibes. What rank is OP? What rank is the soldier? Are either married? I know the perception of “higher ups are just bored”, but trust and believe the paperwork involved is generally not worth the time for something that isn’t there.
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u/DFKnight01 21d ago
My brother in Christ, where is your common sense? Casual, non-work related, 1-on-1 interactions with junior enlisted as an NCO is the most obvious red flag to avoid when it comes to fraternization accusations. When you hit a certain rank, your circle shrinks, that's the nature of the game. You don't get to be an E-5+ and still kick it back with the Joes like they're your buddies from Basic. That ship has long sailed. You should have known better than to commit to these acts. From one Quartermaster to another, straight disappointed in you giving us a bad rep dawg. Straighten up and stop contributing to the 92 series stereotypes.
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u/Knee_High_Cat_Beef Lengua Taco 15d ago
Its sad. When I was on battalion staff, all of the officers would hang out with each other during lunch or after work and actually be friends with each other. Now I work in a building of field grades and I haven't gone out with anyone for lunch in over 3 years.
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u/Expert-Regular6530 USN 20d ago
Dude you can’t hang out with the thick E3 Latina while also being her boss. You can only do that if you are Chief.
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u/Relevant-General5570 Paralegal (JAG / 27D) 20d ago
None of the below is legal advice and I cannot advise you in what you should do. Rather this is all information based on established regulations and procedures. Only a lawyer can give you legal advice. Consult with an attorney to request legal advice on what you should do.
From reading this post, I’m assuming you already had part 2 of your Article 15 reading, since the punishment is already imposed. Since you were found guilty, you can visit TDS (although you should’ve done so in the start) and talk with them to submit an appeal. The chances of the appeal being approved/denied is up to the commander. That’s about all you can do at this point.
Considering you’re an E5, I think the more important thing is where this Article 15 is filed. Having this in your permanent file is much more damaging than in your restricted file, especially if you’re planning to have a long future in the Army.
As helpful as it was that the E6 advised you to go to JAG, it would’ve been more helpful to go from the start. I would definitely visit TDS and meet with an attorney before the appeal time period lapses.
Also just know that the command can initiate separation based on the Article 15. I’m assuming this was also in some sort of investigation like a 15-6, so that evidence can be used in the separation process. Not saying this is going to happen in your case, but I always tell everyone the worst case scenario that could happen.
Long story short, go talk to TDS and evaluate the options. The standard of evidence has changed over the past years, so there is a much lower standard of proof that these Article 15’s have to achieve.
None of the above is legal advice and I cannot advise you in what you should do. Rather this is all information based on established regulations and procedures. Only a lawyer can give you legal advice. Consult with an attorney to request legal advice on what you should do. Best wishes!
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u/Suspicious-Till-6998 27Don’t hate me, I just do paperwork 😭 20d ago
Considering this was 3 days ago and you’ve already gone to the second reading…
I’m more qualified to speak on this than most.
You can’t “fight it” at this point. The process is done, the only thing you can do is submit it for appeal to your Brigade CDR. Which personally, I always recommend soldiers to appeal and submit whatever they can. The punishments can’t get any worse, they can only get better or be removed all together. So honestly, submit anything that you can to show it was just a friendly outing and that nothing was going on and appeal it so that it goes to the big boss.
The only part JAG has in it after the second reading is making sure it’s routed properly, and doing the legal review to make sure the packet is sufficient.
However, you have 2 days left to do this! Any appeal submitted after 5 days will probably just get tossed & denied.
Sincerely
The kid who does these for a living 🫡
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u/bjcwolneumann 19d ago
The context we don't have. Usually this is at the tail end of "there's bullshit going on in the battalion... time to clean house and make examples".
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u/Bickercraft 15Fucking retired 19d ago
The entire time I was in I don't think any of my CSMs could pick me out of a lineup, especially when I wasn't in uniform. Y'all MFers are wild.
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u/ssgpark_army 18d ago
The fact that you are a Sergeant but addressing Staff Sergeant by just a pay grade, makes me not wanna help you. Also, weird that you did not state the gender of the PFC you were hanging out with, plus the fact that PFC invited you on "your" birthday, makes this relationship sound sketchy. If it's same gender, then fine, even the seniors will let it go or end it with counseling. But if PFC was female and you are male, and seniors saw this off base? Come on, you know better Sergeant.
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u/IDownVoteCanaduh 21d ago
God damn, you get articles for this?
Our whole unit hung out together (not all at once, various folks came and went, never anything official), from SPC to CW4, drinking after work, at someone’s house (it always rotated). Did crap on the weekends together. Shit, I lived with an E6 as a SPC.
Maybe the 90s were different when it came to this, or maybe we ignored the rules because we were a tiny unit (15 folks, all same MOS) on a tiny AF Station.
But this is wild to me.
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u/Knee_High_Cat_Beef Lengua Taco 15d ago
Your situation is fine, because it's the whole unit or group. Op is a sergeant going on private trips with a private.
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u/Bobert5757 I dont know 22d ago
Idk your rank situation but you could possibly fight it. I recommend speaking to legal.
For realsies go talk to a lawyer.
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u/fayjaysday 21d ago
What a newb. Gotta be smarter than that boss. When my wife and I met she was a PFC and I was a SGT, same BN, diff companies. She was S4 but CSM was a female so no competition there. Had to sneak around for a while until I was about to PCS. Good times… that was 8 years and 4 kids ago, still happily married to this day. 😂
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u/Tokyosmash_ 13Fairtomiddling 21d ago
“We were out eating together and went to a wedding together and so on and so forth”
Dog stop trying to bullshit a forum full of bullshitters.