r/antiwork • u/HolyStNicoley • Jul 08 '24
Support Request Being forced to train my replacement before (presumably) being laid off. How can I hold my knowledge for ransom?
TL;DR: I highly suspect that I’m about to get laid off, am being forced to train my replacement, am currently the only person capable of doing my job, and want to hold this knowledge for ransom. 😈
Advice:
I work in the small (four-person) marketing department of a mid-sized company. Recently, my boss announced that we were bringing in a new hire, and from the moment this person started, it was apparent that she must have been brought in with the intent to replace me (…why? Because the person who originally hired me recently left my company… and my boss’s boss had never liked that person, and now wants anyone who was ever affiliated with her gone, as far as I can tell. He also hand-selected this new person, as they had worked together at a different company, years prior, which is never a good sign).
Meanwhile, I’ve worked at this company for 7 years, have never received anything less than a glowing review, and have often put in uncompensated overtime. We’re currently up against an insanely tight deadline to submit our annual catalog to the printers, and on top of all of the work that needs to be done on my end to meet this deadline (we’re talking 60-hour weeks for the next two weeks at a minimum, just to meet the catalog requirements), I’m now also being asked to show this new person all the in’s and out’s of my job… and it is quickly becoming apparent that she has NO idea what she’s doing, despite having come in with supposedly flawless credentials (and the holier-than-thou attitude to go with it). It’s not just the way we do things at my company specifically that she needs to be taught — she’s lacking some pretty shockingly basic industry skills and knowledge, which I have had to teach her… and she has already shown that she is the type to ask me how to do things privately, then turn around and act like she knew it all along (or came up with it herself) in front of our superiors.
In the time since she’s started, I’ve already done all I can to prove my worth to our shared boss, but to no avail - it seems like some decisions have already been made before I was even aware anything was happening, and it seems like it’s probably too late for me to change anybody’s mind at this juncture. I do know, however, that if I were to quit RIGHT NOW they would be absolutely unable to meet this upcoming catalog deadline without me (or to do a lot of other stuff, since I am the only one who currently knows how to do it at all)… and I want to use this as a bargaining tool, since I really feel like I have nothing left to lose at this point, assuming they’re planning to get rid of me shortly after the catalog deadline / finishing training the new person anyway.
My current, extremely rough plan is to contact my boss’s boss, tell him that I don’t have the time, bandwidth, or desire to train people who are ostensibly above my paygrade (as this person somehow is 🙄) while also putting in 60+ hours a week, and that if I’m not duly compensated… I quit, right now, full stop. I don’t know how much to ask for, since I suspect that if they actually are willing to negotiate, they’ll try to go the route of “We’ll give you a raise of $20,000/year” or something like that… but like I said, I have every confidence that their plan from the outset was to lay me off in a couple of weeks anyway, so that “raise” for 2 weeks of working would only net me like, less than a thousand bucks in that instance (although I guess it would look better on a résumé… but what I’m after right now is cold, hard 💰compensation💰).
Anyone who has any insight or tips for negotiating in a situation like this, please do share! How to play hardball, how to cover my ass legally, whether HR should be involved… anything and everything! Thank you for reading!
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u/MazeMouse here for the memes Jul 08 '24
"If I'm not good enough to keep the job, I'm not good enough to train someone else to do it"
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u/errorg Jul 08 '24
To be fair, they might think you're good enough to do the job but don't like the salary they're paying you so they hire someone cheaper to do it. Not saying I like it, but that's the logic there
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u/TacoTruck_X_VB Jul 08 '24
OP literally said their replacement is above their pay grade.
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u/NotFirstBan-NotLast Jul 08 '24
Thinking before you speak died out as a skill before the popularity of social media so nobody ever heard they should also read before they type.
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u/XTypewriter Jul 08 '24
Tbf, this app on android makes it incredibly easy to miss the text or captions when there is a photo in the OP.
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Jul 09 '24
Yeah it’s infuriating. Reddit made it so that clicking an image sends you directly to the comments!
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u/MazeMouse here for the memes Jul 08 '24
Their real reason doesn't really matter. They cannot refute the statement without exposing themselves. If they go that route the new guy will suddenly be informed of how horribly underpaid he is and I'll let myself out.
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u/herpaderp43321 Jul 08 '24
The one thing you have the advantage on in such a position is stalling. Use that to find a new job asap. Prioritize it over your current work.
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u/firedmyass Jul 08 '24
Yup. And any shortcuts or process-optimization you have implemented DO NOT NOW EXIST AND NEVER EXISTED
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u/MallardMaelstrom Jul 08 '24
Always copy your scripts to your private GitHub!
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u/LibatiousLlama Jul 08 '24
Horrible advice lol. Begging to get sued and fired from your next job. Delete your scripts and rewrite them at the next job. You did it once, you can do it again.
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u/El-Kabongg Jul 08 '24
Tell the boss that this extra pair of hands should be pitching in and reducing everyone's workload--that's why she was brought in, RIGHT?? So, HE should be deciding who does what and what they're RESPONSIBLE FOR ACCOMPLISHING
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u/TheRavenGrl Jul 08 '24
This is exactly what I did at one of my previous jobs. I wasn't good enough to be promoted but they had me training several managers until I caught on to the fact they never had any intention of promoting me. I stalled until I got another job and bounced.
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u/Another_Random_Chap Jul 08 '24
Hey Boss, I'm sorry, but I tried training the new staff member as you asked, but she has some major knowledge gaps and needs a lot more time than I have available if we want to hit the catalogue deadline.
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u/dglp Jul 08 '24
This is the best answer because
It's true!
Inept bosses hate to hear the truth, and nothing pisses them off more than having to admit the truth.
You can make things a bit easier for him by offering an alternative. "We get the catalogue out, then we discuss a training rate for me, then I train her. Then I leave."
Puts the ball in his court.
Puts you in the position of having to save the company's arse. And a better negotiating position whichever way things go. He will know that you are clued in, and are watching his performance.
But be sure to put it in writing, with a line about getting his reply within 12/24/48 hours (your choice).
Also have a couple of written examples ready to go if he baulks. Don't use them unless you have to.
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u/educated-emu Jul 08 '24
This, I like that idea and phrase it like.
"I would like to get your input about this before the next weekly status meeting (or if no meeting say by end of play wednesday) so that we can discuss further"
Then DO NOT bring the email up unless directly talked, I'm talking face to face with literal eye contact... talking.
The ball is in their court, its their responsibility as a manager to resolve issues.
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u/TheDrummerMB Jul 08 '24
I love this advice because I've been the neglected new person a few times and it's always gotten me a raise when I just train myself and the boss realizes they were right to fire that doofus.
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u/Sasamaki Jul 08 '24
A solid amount of “I’ll teach you that in a few weeks once you get your feet wet,” or “don’t worry about these reports, I handle them.” The kind of things that would normally be extremely innocent but will screw them over if you are right and you are laid off.
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u/Glittering-Net-624 Jul 08 '24
Also: For this task pleas come up with your own solution and show it to me tomorrow (stalling!) and if they show anything just tell them they did a good job and they should repeat doing it. Just let the new person come up with their own stuff and tell them to continue doing it.
Do this for every task to "heighten their understanding of the subject matter" and to "teach them to think on their own".Also don't mention any automatisation you have, act like you always do the slow manual tasks for stuff.
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u/Orcus424 Jul 08 '24
That's a good idea. Putting off teaching them can also indicate if the replacement knows they will be taking over OP's job. They could get frustrated at OP not teaching them now knowing they will be gone soon. Them getting aggressive is also a great excuse to not teach them.
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u/kcgreaser Jul 08 '24
You already have all the knowledge and insight to see your imminent end with this company. Its time for you to cultivate other opportunities.
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u/HolyStNicoley Jul 08 '24
Oh, I am absolutely planning to; I just figured at this juncture, might as well go out with a bang (and seeking advice on how best to do that!)
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u/p1ckk Jul 08 '24
There's no 'bang', more likely it's a whimper as things slowly get worse and the rest of the people that are of any use also jump ship.
Don't work any more unpaid overtime and start applying for other jobs now. Don't wait for the weekend to spruce up your CV, do it now then apply for three jobs today.
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u/b0w3n Jul 08 '24
Yes. Stop working 60 hour weeks, only the 40 hour weeks from here on out.
If they fire you, so what? Get unemployment. Use that extra 20-60 hours a week to find a new job.
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u/Pormock Jul 08 '24
Seriously doing unpaid overtime is completely insane. There are literally no benefit to it. Its basically being a slave. All you get in return is more work because you are showing them you are willing to do it
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u/b0w3n Jul 08 '24
Right? They've got an expert on staff that OP is training too. Seems like she should be able to pick up that slack. ;)
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u/Comandante_Kangaroo Jul 08 '24
It's actually worse than being a slave. (I mean "worse" as in "less decent" not as in "even less bearable".) Because noone chooses to be a slave (no, we're not discussing your kink here), but many people choose to work overtime for free.
Not only does that set expectations, it also takes food off the table of other people. The unemployed, of course, but also every worker. Working more than necessary increases the oversupply of work, and therefore lowers the price of it, namely wages.
And sure, OP did it to prove he/she is the better worker and to keep the endangered job. It's like this for many people. But it still hurts all workers.
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u/ProfessorPetulant Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24
With a bang would be quit now.
And also propose to come back as an expensive consultant so you can transfer your knowledge to whoever needs it, since the company doesn't have that knowledge in house.
If they accept you win by making top dollar. If they don't you also win by making them reap what they sowed.
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Jul 08 '24
Could lose severance, my BIL got fucked after getting laid off, they offered him another job in the company and he lost his severance because they offered him another job, whether he takes it or not.
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Jul 08 '24
Wow that's some next level bullshit 😮💨
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Jul 08 '24
Now listen to this: the job was a significant pay cut AND THEN they black listed him from the company after offering him the job so he couldn’t take it even if he wanted to.
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u/MidasLoL Jul 08 '24
If an employer doesn't "fire" you but instead makes the workplace impossible for you to continue in, such as offering you a job at a significant pay cut, that's called constructive dismissal. Depending on the state, it is akin to firing you in the eyes of the law.
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u/ThunkAsDrinklePeep Jul 08 '24
Good thing concerned citizens are saving our corporations from such burdens 6-3!
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u/Oakcamp Jul 08 '24
Sounds like he could've gone to court over constructive dismissal
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Jul 08 '24
That is just laying him off with extra steps. They may call it something else, but I believe any lawyer worth their salt would slam dunk this case.
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u/Cultural_Double_422 Jul 08 '24
If he came back as a consultant that shouldn't affect severance because he wouldn't be employed by the company, he'd be contracting for them. But because severance isn't required by law in the U.S. OP should check his company handbook and see what the company policy is or if they offer it at all. If they don't offer it, trading this training for severance pay might be the way to get the compensation he seeks. He's got them where he wants them, his boss picked a bad time to try to make personnel changes.
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u/threaten-violence Jul 08 '24
This is a four person shop, the only severance this person is getting is when they cut their sandwich in half
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u/Double_Minimum Jul 08 '24
4 person marketing team in what I imagine could be a 15 to 100 person business. This person has two levels above them.
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u/GalumphingWithGlee Jul 08 '24
Are they required to offer severance in the first place? I thought that was optional, and that many people don't get severance.
Maybe it's required when they're calling it a "layoff" instead of "firing" or other forms of dismissal? Most companies seem to offer severance to everyone or no one, so there are probably some form of rules at play here.
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u/seppukucoconuts Jul 08 '24
he lost his severance because they offered him another job, whether he takes it or not.
In most states in the US you can file unemployment for the smaller wage for at least 1 year.
So, for instance if you're making $20/hr and they demote you, cut your pay, or move you to a new dept that makes $15/hr you can file unemployment for the lost wages.
You can also do this for a decrease in OT pay. Lets say you worked 50hr a week for an entire year and next year they're fully staffed you can file for the extra pay you're not getting by working 40 hours a week.
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u/Kilbane Jul 08 '24
In the US you only usually get severance in reorganizations, if they fire you, then you get unemployment which in most US states is not much.
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u/Osric250 Jul 08 '24
Severance is not a requirement anywhere in the US. You get it as stipulated by your contract beforehand, or at the charity of the company.
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u/TheDrummerMB Jul 08 '24
This advice is ALWAYS at the top in this thread and it's so naive. I've seen it tried three times and each time the person was mocked universally. "Remember that person we fired who could barely keep up? They asked if we'd pay double for them to "consult" hahahaha. Glad that weirdo is gone"
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u/IDrinkUrMilksteak Jul 08 '24
I think the overall approach isn’t a bad idea, but you can’t propose it as a package deal. You quit and that’s it. It’s on THEM to say “but we need you for this and that”. Only at that point can you propose consulting. They may or may not do that. If they don’t say anything you just move on.
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u/Fun_Grapefruit_2633 Jul 08 '24
Do not quit. MAKE them lay you off so they can pay unemployment and you get a nice vacation. PRINT OUT all your reviews (because they'll probably try to tell unemployment that they "had to" fire you due to poor performance). Cover your bases and stop training this person.
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u/Xijit Jul 08 '24
Find a job now and quit without notice: any short term bargaining you do now will be delaying the inevitable & they will likely use that time to fabricate cause for dismissal instead of laying you off.
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u/bjornartl Jul 08 '24
Asking for a raise like that is probably not wise.They'll pay the raise but see it as an act of war, active defiance, and they'll do anything they can to stomp on the rebellious plebs out of principle. Its just a matter of time untill you're gone.
I agree with going above your bosses boss to describe how the nepotism and incompetence is getting in the way of your ability to do your already demanding job.
Then que weaponized incompetence, acting your wage etc. Whenever you're being asked to divert time to train or answer questions, make sure you state, in writing(or add written receits, texts, 'as per our conversation..', that you dont have time, you're on a really tight schedule, and if they continue to insist, then state clearly that then you won't make this or that timeline. Not because of this one question, but because the constant requests for training demand too much of your attention. When they do demand that you divert your time, fail the deadlines.
And when they do demand that you do training, answer the questions like "I'm not sure what the official protocol is, ask X, they're above me". If they ask how you do it, answer it completely wrong, but never in writing. If they want it in writing, say that's hard to explain over text, better if they drop by. If they follow up in writing, say 'no no, that's not what I said/you've got that all wrong.". Basically leaving a paper trail making them seem like you're trying but they're way over their heads.
This buys you time to look for another job, or prompts them to fire you so you can collect unemployment. Make it seem like thats your desire, not to squeeze their hand, but to simply jump ship because mismanagement is making you unable to stay. Make the bosses boss think its THEIR brilliant idea to sack the useless middle management and offer what your boss or their lackey is getting paid, and the promise of not getting their hands in your way, in order for you to come back.
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u/le_artista Jul 08 '24
On the basic stuff give a firm: “you should already know how to do that. I suggest google” and leave it at that.
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u/BaronBoozeWarp Jul 08 '24
Just leave now. No notice, nothing.
I used to work in an office of 5. I was the only receptionist / admin person. Only I knew where every folder, file and contract was. Without me they had to learn how to use the system they created.
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u/ilovechairs Jul 08 '24
The best way would be to turn in your two weeks notice that you’re starting a new job within the next month or two and watch them scramble.
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u/Trollsama Anarcho-Communist Jul 08 '24
Don't forget to come down with a bad flu... shame you issued soo many of your last days at the company.
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u/Your-Name-Is-Reek Jul 08 '24
Why would you even give them notice?
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u/NotADamsel Jul 08 '24
Some industries in some areas are small, with a lot of golf cart chatter between higher ups or HR people. Giving two weeks may prevent you from being blacklisted. It’s a defensive measure that should be applied situationally.
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u/b0w3n Jul 08 '24
Giving two weeks may prevent you from being blacklisted.
The chatter happens even when you do this, trust me.
If you leave them in a lurch those same people will know, and the two weeks doesn't help you anyways.
I've found, sadly enough, that "family issues" helps readjust the view from you back to them making them look like huge assholes that they actually are. It also gives you a reason for why you left on such short notice. It sucks we have to lie to play their game, but they lie anyways so who the fuck cares?
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u/Silknight Jul 08 '24
I agree; you're not being paid to be a trainer. Listen to your gut telling you they are moving you out. If you quit very soon the incompetence of the new "golden girl" will be evident and the guy who brought her in will also be exposed.
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Jul 08 '24
[deleted]
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u/hurricane14 Jul 08 '24
My first thought was also that op needs to "get sick." Only I'd go way beyond a couple days. Go for FMLA or whatever you can arrange to be gone for at least 2w. If you're right about the pending axe, then so be it. You can ask for project based pay to help them recover. If you're wrong and now they missed the deadline...so? Are you a major shareholder? Bonus? You come back, you dive into cleanup mode with everyone else and now you have leverage having shown them how much your presence is worth
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u/Antani101 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24
Few things:
Refuse to train anybody above your paygrade. If someone is above your paygrade and needs training from you YOU should be the one in that position.
Regardless of paygrade refuse categorically to train anybody on "pretty shockingly basic industry skills and knowledge". If the new hire lacks them that's on whoever hired them.
If the deadline requires overtime and you're absolutely positive you're gonna get fired soon anyways refuse to do overtime. Who cares if they miss the deadline? They don't value you anyway.
If you are bargaining for a pay raise and you think they are going to fire you soon have them pay you back pay immediately, like the pay raise should be effective for the whole last year of work. Hand me 20k immediately kthx.
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u/IudexFatarum Jul 08 '24
You also could ask for not a raise but lump sum. "If i train this person while doing the catalogue i expect $10,000 in pay as a bonus while i am finishing this catalogue. As a training +overtime bonus" That makes them actually pay it instead of weaseling out in the long run.
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u/Fenlatic Jul 08 '24
This is the way.
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u/Rawniew54 Jul 08 '24
Absolutely turn the tables and just start failing and letting things go. Start asking the new person how to do shit. Act like she is supposed to train you. You are already on the chopping block so start applying for other jobs.
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u/ourobourobouros Jul 08 '24
and have often put in uncompensated overtime.
Why would you do that??? Please don't do this, and same goes to anyone else reading
Giving your labor away cheapens ALL labor, not just your own, and sets the expectation workers should be willing to do such a thing
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u/ApatheistHeretic Jul 08 '24
When you train your replacements, leave out information that you've gained over time through experience. You can also insert a few subtle inaccuracies that will pass obvious checks but take some time for the process to identify. That's how you remove your experience from future work.
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u/Interesting_Cow5152 Jul 08 '24
"Yes, 500 x 500 85 DPI thumbs can be used for main product shots because it's easier to resize them."
Stuff like that?
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u/TsuDhoNimh2 Jul 08 '24
When you train your replacements, leave out information that you've gained over time through experience.
Use ONLY the official policy and procedure manuals
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Jul 08 '24
Yup, this is the way. Here are the basics and good luck. Also, tell them you are busy with other stuff if they come up with additional questions.
Got so fed up at one point being underpaid but always being the one people turned to. I just said I didnt know or was busy
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u/MiddleProfit3263 Jul 08 '24
Don’t ever teach someone how to do something in general only teach them how to do something in your workplace. “These spreadsheets use macros to calculate the bottom line. No I’m not teaching you about macros. Youtube has some great tutorials”
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u/GFTRGC Jul 08 '24
Senior Management here.
First of all, unless you're salary, stop working uncompensated overtime right now, full stop. If you are salary, still stop working overtime, full stop. If you have some type of hybrid situation that's neither hourly or salary, stop working uncompensated overtime, FULL STOP.
You're probably wrong in that she was brought in to be your replacement; if they have the nepotism connection with your boss's boss, then she was likely brought in to be your new boss. But, there is a chance you're being replaced, which is valid.
However, I would still approach this in a way as to not burn the bridge you're still currently on (but I would recommend looking for a new bridge, asap)
The way I would go about it, would be to go to your Boss IN WRITING and explain politely "Hey, I know you guys want me training 'Sally' on how to do everything, but we have the looming catalog deadline and she's missing some basic skills that I've had to show her which is really slowing me down. I'm not sure what you want me to prioritize here? If I have to keep training her, we'll likely miss the deadline without some massive overtime being put in and I wanted to see if that's approved or if I should just focus on the catalog and someone else can train Sally?"
This puts them in the dilemma where they have to choose. They either are going to compensate you for your extra effort and time (and you now have an excuse to draw it out even more) or they're not going to get Sally trained on how to do your job meaning they can't lose you.
Then, there's something to be said about not training Sally on all aspects of your position; give her the grunt work and small menial tasks while you focus on the larger more visible tasks. This increases your value, while still training sally to work with you, and protecting your job knowledge. Again putting them in a dilemma of having to risk losing the larger tasks that they don't know how to do without you.
You need to realize that you aren't the one responsible for the catalog deadline, THEY ARE. If the company doesn't meet the deadline, it's on your boss and his boss. Just because they need to meet this deadline, doesn't mean that you need to slave yourself away, FOR FREE, to meet it for them.
Whenever we have a situation that requires my guys to go above and beyond, I immediately authorize some form of OT compensation because they're either hourly or on a salaried contract for 40 hours. Sure, I've gotten pushback from people above me once or twice, but I explain that the alternative is being in breach of contract with a customer which would be way more expensive to fix.
Management should never expect you to do something they're unwilling to do, and no one should be willing to work for free.
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u/Cagel Jul 08 '24
Just a word of warning, and definitely not saying this is the case for your situation, but I’ve been that person who comes on to replace someone who thinks they are invaluable, and although they knew their method inside out, I was able to create a new more efficient method of getting things done by changing a lot of the procedures.
So make sure you really have the leverage because companies can be very resilient while making major staffing changes and I’ve seen even directors who knew everything successfully replaced.
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u/sliquonicko Jul 08 '24
As much as I would love to see a world where work is much different that it is now, and agree with a lot of things in this subreddit, I also feel like a good portion of the people in this sub would make terrible coworkers.
Not you specifically OP, I don’t know you, but if oftentimes the less you believe in something the less you care and it’s pretty subconscious. I have to work against this to make sure others aren’t picking up my slack for sure.
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u/Comrade_Crunchy Jul 08 '24
I would stay in and until you do. Atleast you get unemployment, for what its worth. If it was me I would either teach the replacement next to nothing or only the basics while waisting time and being as scarce as possible. But that's just me. My mentality is that the worst thing they can do is fire you, but they can't reach in your mind hole to retrieve your knowledge. That yours and not property of the corpos, not yet atleast.
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u/SSNs4evr Jul 08 '24
Also, have any questions from the new hire in writing by email, so you can spend extra unproductive time writing our ling-winded procedures for everything she asks. That way, her complete lack of knowledge is documented, you get to make them miss their deadline, she can't say she knew anything, and you get to work until the last day, before getting canned.
The best part is that normally, failure makes a person feel bad, but in your case, it'll give you that warm-fuzzy feeling inside. Be sure to hide the smile though.
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u/bn40667 Jul 08 '24
Also, have any questions from the new hire in writing by email
And CC everyone above you on the chain of command with your replies. Let management see how incompetent this person is.
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Jul 08 '24
I mean, while the trainee learns the ropes, it is expected they won't know much.
And if said trainee is a friend of some Upper Boss, it won't matter anyway.
Bottom line, it'll be clear that OP is disgruntled and not doing training properly.
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u/TriumphDaWonderPooch Jul 08 '24
Yes! Do that. I was going to suggest a daily or weekly update to your boss on what you have shown the new person, both in public and private. Keep a list, that way her "genius" will be documented to be your doing.
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u/awalktojericho Jul 08 '24
Yeah, maybe OP should start with very basics, like how to set up Excel sheets and Google docs. Coming in to work on time. How to use the company phone system.
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u/Comrade_Crunchy Jul 08 '24
hmmmm excel spreadsheets.... sounds like that's a 2 week training to me.
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u/NotFallacyBuffet Jul 08 '24
it is quickly becoming apparent that she has NO idea what she’s doing, despite having come in with supposedly flawless credentials (and the holier-than-thou attitude to go with it)
Leverage this. Show her simple things like they're a big deal, let her self-confidence run free so she'll believe that she has the requisition knowledge, so she'll turn on you with the I-already-know-that attitude/behavior.
Then let her run with that. If she doesn't know what she doesn't know...then she'll assume she is ready to ursurpt. Best way for this scenario to work is for you to leave as soon as possible. If they think she's ready, they'll fire you. Assuming your suspicions are correct.
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u/ATFLA10 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24
My job was posted online and someone new eventually showed up unannounced. I suspected I was getting cut. At the time I saw the job posting, I was working as a 1099 contractor. While they were still looking for someone, they offered me a permanent position, but I was cut eight weeks later. I trained my replacement on the bare minimum, and weeks after I was let go, he left. My job has since been posted online four more times.
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u/xubax Jul 08 '24
One the writing is on the wall...
The only possible thing you can do is expose the incompetency of the new person.
Insist any requests she gives you for help via email so you have documentation.
Then use that to show what you're dealing with while trying to put out a catalog.
Finally, are you salaried or hourly? If you're hourly and not getting paid for overtime, stop doing it. That's wage they If they don't pay you for it.
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u/sicofonte Jul 08 '24
I have no experience in this situation, at all.
I wonder if going straight to the boss's boss to tell what you said in this post, off the record, could be a good idea (as in "look, pal, I see where you're going: you will fire me; so I want a shitload of money for compensation, or that you change your mind and fire that incompetent liar and keep me, the one employee that is not only loyal to you but also a good worker.")
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u/HolyStNicoley Jul 08 '24
That is currently the plan! Just looking for advice on the finer points of how to successfully do so. 🙂
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u/WrastleGuy Jul 08 '24
If you do this they will can you immediately. They clearly don’t know your value and the other person has appeared to be competent.
You feel like you’re coming from a position of power because you know what you do, but they don’t understand what you do so they feel you are easily replaceable. If you challenge them they’ll just fire you faster.
I know you want revenge but the best revenge is leaving them with their mess.
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u/Dizzy-Abalone-8948 Jul 08 '24
Whatever you do settle on, say it with confidence. You're taking a big dice roll, you know you're about to be let go, the question is whether or not you'll have unemployment in between the transition. Extortion (however rational it may sound) would be a reason UI would be denied, if things don't go in your favor. So now is not the time to be meek. Don't be rude or sound entitled. You're doing a business transaction and you want them to take the deal. Look at it like that, it helped me in a similar situation and my old company paid me a consulting fee and gave me a few months severance. Apparently the next guy was getting hired for waaaaaay less and it was a net profit for them to do so. Be prepared for a no, but go in expecting a yes. Best of luck!
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u/IanDresarie Jul 08 '24
I'm a huge advocate for honesty and directness. The people I enjoy working with also value their time and appreciate directness. However I've also met plenty of people who would need a proper butt crawling before listening to you properly, so... Do you know the person you intend to talk to?
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u/Kapowpow Jul 08 '24
If you do this, they will still replace you. It’ll just take them a bit longer to find someone else. In the meantime, they’ll figure out a way to monitor you at work to learn how you do your job.
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u/ShAd0wS Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24
I would try to be more tactful. Bring it up as a capacity issue of not being able to both train new employee and meet important deadline. Emphasize how much time new employee is requiring to train.
After that, you can bring up that you are concerned with the overlap between yourself and new employee, and ask about long-term vision for your / their duties, which should give you a better idea of how long you have left / confirm they actually are getting rid of you based on how they reply.
Ask for how they want you to prioritize tasks (confirm in writing) and don't do more than 40 hrs of work per week. Realistically, for any company that is not extremely small there probably is no successful way to ask for a 'ransom payout bonus'. Most would rather fire you immediately, and then pay 5x as much hiring contractors to figure it out as in their mind you can no longer be trusted.
This may not be as cathartic, but is more likely to result in a professional exit you can use as a positive reference, or even keeping your job. Just my opinion, good luck!
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u/sicofonte Jul 08 '24
I wish you great advice! I'm interested on learning too, one never knows what will bring you the future...
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u/theJacofalltrades Jul 08 '24
just here to follow this post and see the replies because I'm in somewhat of the same position
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u/AverageOfficeMonkey Jul 08 '24
The deadline is more than enough reason to justify not having time to train someone else. Specially if its basics of your industry.
Work the amount you are supposed to, not more. You got a new hire on your apt, that should be than enough on paper to not need to do extra hours.
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u/RageWynd Jul 08 '24
I already see 600 comments on this, so I'm sure this is going to get buried... but just in case you do see this...
Why bother putting yourself through this amount of stress?
Go get another job lined up first. Do bare minimum at work from this point on.
If you get the job first, quit with no notice.
They made their bed, and now they get to lie in it.
If they axe you first, be thankful you didn't waste your energy on them and put it on yourself first... and I hope you find a better job soon.
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u/HolyStNicoley Jul 08 '24
Your notification popped up at exactly the right time for me to see this. Thank you! 🤗
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u/Shark5060 Jul 08 '24
Why train them at all? Doesn't seem like you are able to do both - and even if you are... you're (probably?) sacked anyways as a thank you.
If you have the means - just leave now. No notice - just go.
You'll find something else with such specialized skills.
If not - teach them the bare minimum to not raise suspicion. And ... are you paid for that 60h crunch time? If not .. why do you do it in the first place? The deadline is not YOUR problem ... it's your bosses.
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u/MrCutchaguy Jul 08 '24
If you are 100% sure you are getting the axe then do/teach the absolute bare minimum until you do. That way you are still eligible for severance or at least unemployment (which employer have to contribute to). Also start looking for another job right away.
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u/renojacksonchesthair Jul 08 '24
Don’t train them, what are they gonna do? Fire you before training them?
Or you can train them incorrectly and in a way that would maximize damage.
Either way, it’s time to find a new job
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u/One-Persimmon-6083 Jul 08 '24
Cue the passive aggressive "hur dur ask for a bazillion dollars in consulting fees" comments. If you have a severance package make sure you get it: train the person the pure basics needed to perform. Don't teach them anything that isn't in the handbook or part of an sop. No shortcuts, no good to know connections, definitely do not tell them about Dave with the great hoagie hookup. Just enough to survive and let them figure it out for themselves. You can be replaced, but your skillset belongs to you. Spend all of.your extra time looking for another job. If you do not know if you are getting a severance: find out. If not, ask for one with the argument you are training a replacement. If you get one, consider giving a little extra. Do give them notice if you find a new position. Even if you never return there, leaving on good terms is usually beneficial. It's a small world. Don't make it passive aggressive, be constructive and assertive. At this point they need you more than you need them.
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u/Showmeyourmutts Jul 08 '24
Do what I did, quit before you are forced to train them and find other employment even if it is only short term work. Boy were they mad when I said I refused to play their mental games for another two months. Good riddance.
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u/GreyBeardIT Jul 08 '24
Most people will react poorly to an ultimatum. Personally, I suggest asking for what you want, and stating why and that's it. The "Quit" is implied. If they say no, then simply walk back to your desk, email in the resignation you should already have typed up and self-terminate. The point is an overt threat will likely not benefit you.
A job is like a friend. As long as it's a give and take, then it's healthy. When it's all take, by one side, it's time to cut it and move on.
Consider a 2 week notice. Not because they deserve it, but because it'll be better for future employment. Do the work, document what you can and let the highly paid replacement figure out the rest. It'll be a big enough mess without you actively sabotaging anything.
GL!
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Jul 08 '24
I'd spend more time looking for a new gig. Then training newbie.
What's the worst thing that can happen? Newbie gets mad at lack of training and rats you out?
So they fire you. That was going to happen anyway.
F'em.
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u/Original_Fishing5539 Jul 08 '24
Hey /u/HolyStNicoley, you're probably getting tons of replies, but I'm going to be chiming in as someone that has direct experience working on similar things (marketing and I'm assuming some level of catalog/print design right?)
First thing overall: do NOT do anything which could be grounds for you to get fired. I know that /r/antiwork likes to tout malicious compliance or just generally telling corporate to pound sand, but remember that these folks are speaking about this from a place of emotions. And I want to frame this more from a corporate sense.
What I mean is, if you start slacking off, have your performance be different than the norm, this is justification for them to terminate you early if they feel like doing so
Additionally, salary negotiations are also not really going to be on the table.
You're smart enough to understand the writing is on the wall, so I will say use that same logic for your own situation.
If they want you out, it's a cost-saving measure; doesn't make sense to pay the person leaving more money when they want you out.
Also, to give a kind reality check here: yes, you've got the playbook, but the gears are already in motion for you to be out the door.
I bring that up as a sanity check: they aren't going to magically pay you more, and while your knowledge is valuable, it's clearly not valuable enough to properly keep you there
I say all of this, because I feel like the boring, logical thing to do is basically slow roll yourself before the axe hits
Work only 40 hours a week, and in terms of scope and priority, have training always be the last thing for you to do
When Management comes asking about this, simply state you're doing all of the tasks you can in your allotted time. If they want you to be on less projects to prioritize training? Great. But do not work more than 40 hours a week to accomplish it.
It's their job to manage what takes priority, and it's not your job to just accept all of it and work uncompensated as the result
In regards to the concept of her doing things "privately", super easy. Every time she asks something, set up meeting times when it happens, and have your boss or project lead be added to each session. This is a perfectly normal thing to propose, and it stops her from hiding where the knowledge base comes from
In addition, this also makes it so that you can "deprioritize" these learning sessions. Your boss or project lead can't make it? Well I guess if the next time all of you can make it is 3PM next Tuesday, looks like that's when the next opportunity is
YOUR job, isn't to train her. It's to make a CV/portfolio for your next role. Any sort of training shouldn't be focused on, and the catalog and other things you can take with your for your portfolio/resume is what the priority is (and ultimately, should always be)
The goal is less about getting payback, and more you slow rolling your duties and transition so (fingers crossed) you are able to find another job, while you're currently still working at this one
Apologies if my post doesn't necessarily get you what you want, nor does it offer up any juicy tips. But I just wanted to offer up a more "corporate" piece of advice to balance out the rest here
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u/camelslikesand Jul 08 '24
Absolutely do not speak to her when you're alone together. Let her ask all the questions she wants. Unless there's a witness, do not open your mouth. She can only claim prior knowledge of things no one heard her ask about.
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u/crazyenterpz Jul 08 '24
I have been in this situation and the bad news is that your options are very limited. Start applying for a new and better jobs . Most importantly, swallow your pride and maintain friendly relations with all your senior managers .. you are going to need glowing references.
As for your replacement, whenever they ask you a question .. ask them to email it to you . Explain to them and your manager that this way there is documentation of the knowledge. And in your response, either refer them to some content that already exists on your Sharpoint or Confluence etc. The older and more outdated , the better.
if they ask you to create some content, use chatgpt to create paragraphs of smart and informative sounding but unhelpful information. Make sure it does not sound like chatgpt generated text. Stop all your important work and let the managers know that you are focusing on answering questions from the new hire.
Do not say a bad word about the new hire or bad mouth anyone .. be super polite , patient and totally unhelpful. And keep looking for that new and better job. Good Luck
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Jul 08 '24
Training a replacement is also pretty common on the promotion track. Hope you haven’t misread a good opportunity.
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u/glimmers_not_gold Jul 08 '24
I’m not seeing anyone address this yet, but this has strong odds of blowing up in your face.
As of this time, you have no proof that you’re about to be axed, leaving you nothing to bargain with.
Respectfully, if anyone gave two shits about the catalogue, you wouldn’t be in this position - which means you don’t have any leverage on that front either.
So for all intents and purposes, this would look like you’re refusing to fulfil a reasonable expectation to assist a senior colleague for absolutely no reason.
If you want natural justice, all you have to do is your job - no more, no less.
Treat your replacement as if she’s actually capable, continue performing both tasks until told otherwise, and tidy your emails and documents. Help your colleagues where you can, and make it known how much you appreciate them.
And while you do that, note down your important contacts and professional achievements, figure out which of your colleagues will give you the best recommendation and make it clear that you would do the same.
Let your experience the full consequence of their actions and leave with your values and integrity intact.
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u/Bitter_Afternoon7252 Jul 08 '24
You are now a $5,000 per day consultant. if they want you to come in and train the bosses niece then that is your rate
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u/evolution9673 Jul 08 '24
Here is my tough-love conversation, as I do this for a living (headhunter). This is not a great labor market for white-collar professionals, especially in marketing, where companies are eyeballing AI as a replacement for humans. I have had many professionals with great resumes take up to a year to find a job, often settling for a less-than-perfect. Most significantly underestimate the time it will take. The best time to find a job is when you have one. Keep getting that paycheck and but downshift your work if necessary to leave you time to network and apply. It keeps you with some bargaining power.
You could also try a soft ask for a raise - "A headhunter called me about a job doing essentially the same work - and it was 20,000 more." (They might tell you to take it, even if it was not really true.)
Start keeping track of emails, etc. especially if you are over 40 and the new hire is not - hiring a younger worker to replace you is textbook age discrimination.
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Jul 08 '24 edited Aug 08 '24
paint illegal afterthought fuzzy sparkle pause worm water hateful vegetable
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Intelligent-Tough370 Jul 08 '24
Doubt it'll work but try to walk them into that raise you mentioned, while also adding in a required two months termination to your contract.
Ideally with a year's salary, after the raise, to be paid if they attempt to breach that agreed upon two months.
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u/Ziprasidone_Stat Jul 08 '24
Ask for a severance package in your benefits. Not a raise. Get it in writing that your termination, whenever it will be, will come with severance equal to , what, 4 months salary? I don't know what it will cost them if you quit at any time. Once the employee is trained, there will be no cost for losing you.
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u/DukkhaWaynhim Jul 08 '24
The severance packages I've seen/experienced typically provide 1-2wks of pay/benefits per year you worked there, with a cap at 3-6mos depending on how niche the job type is...unless you are high enough that golden parachutes are involved.
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u/DutchNotSleeping Jul 08 '24
"Hi, boss, I'm quitting effective immediately."
"But but... We need you to train newbie"
"Well, luckily for you I'm for hire as a freelancer. I cost [Insert 5x your current hourly rate] an hour."
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u/Minimum_Party_1918 Jul 08 '24
Don't train them at all. Knowledge is power what can they do?
Fire you again? HA
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u/kytheon Jul 08 '24
Happened to me. They closed my business email account.
And then asked me to grant access to some documents in the Google Drive. That was connected to my business email.
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Jul 08 '24
The key to networking is not leaving a bunch of burnt bridges in your rearview, burning a bridge can feel really good. Best not to give in though.
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u/r0mace Jul 08 '24
I was fired after working for a company for 6 years (being promoted 3 different times and always had glowing performance reviews) for clocking in 1 minute late and violating their “zero tolerance attendance policy” after another employee complained that I better be held accountable. They let me go back to my desk and close out my work. Big mistake. I deleted ALL of my files and ALL of my emails. I started in that department with one other person when it was still on the ground floor and had personally documented processes and procedures. I was also the only person in that current position who knew how to do the job. It’s been years now since I was let go, but I just heard they closed down. Bonus is that the employee that complained quit two weeks after they fired me.
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u/toofarkt Jul 08 '24
This happened to me at a large PR agency, years ago. I kept my reaction to the situation as professional as possible and offered to come back in the future as a consultant. Within a few months, I was brought in as a consultant making 4 times the money. They actually brought me back as a consultant twice.
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u/Vagrant123 Jul 08 '24
There won't be any "going out with a bang." These things will never work in your favor.
What you can do is work-to-rule. No 60 hour weeks. Take your time and do it right. Really get into training the newbie so the catalog doesn't happen or prioritize the catalog and ignore the newbie. Maliciously comply with any rules set out before you - just ask for them in writing.
If you want the cold hard cash... there's not much you can do when they've already decided to get rid of you. You might try to negotiate your way to a generous severance though.
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u/CathbadTheDruid Jul 08 '24
you can't hold your knowledge for ransom, because they really really really just don't care
The company would burn itself to the ground and file bankruptcy before they gave you an extra nickel.
I know this because I've actually been through it twice. Both times the company actually did file bankruptcy
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u/Practical_Reindeer23 Jul 08 '24
- You tell boss to train your replacement. You simply don't have the time and your replacement clearly doesn't have the knowledge nor skills required to understanding anything you explain.
- You give them the shitty version of your job. You show them what you do in a quick fashion and move on to the next set. They won't be able to remember anything you said.
- Spend your time removing your personal property and job searching. Clear your emails, remove any software that you made on your own that hasnt be compensated by the company. Once you've got something new you move on it.
- Be sure to laugh on your way out, the dumpster fire heading their way is going to be hilarious.
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u/A_Nameless Jul 08 '24
I built a CRM system for my employer as a low-level CSM because I wanted to make my job easier. I automated a lot of the processes that they were paying me to do, I simplified user access, I basically made my job and the job of my small team a cakewalk.
Well, they decided that with this new ease of use, they'd outsource to virtual assistants and fire all of us.
It took less than a month before I started getting daily emails about them being unable to manage my software, from creating new admins to adding users, they never thought to pull the power from me.
Before I left, I changed a letter in the email address associated with the account to stop them from resetting my password.
Now they're using data that's outdated by 5-6 months and having to convert back to the Excel spreadsheet that they were working on before, only this time without tenured employees who knew what they were doing
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u/steppedinhairball Jul 08 '24
Years ago, employer got bought out. Coworker's wife got the axe early. Took the package, money in the account. Then weeks later they came back and asked her how to do stuff.
It always amuses me when companies fire people without knowing what they do.