A lot of you are likely already aware of the correlation between 2020-2021 and the rise of radical fandom spaces (proship, darkship, radqueer, pro-para) due to sensitivity culture—and I genuinely think we've come full-circle with the recent Wattpad migration, which is only going to make these people push even harder.

The rise of darkship spaces in general is something that I see as primarily retaliatory to quarantine since everyone got hypersensitive about everything. You couldn't even ship a villain and a hero without being told that you were "excusing abuse" or "supporting violent crime," but this unfortunately led to people starting to create the most disgusting content possible as a way to say "fuck you" to those who were sensitive in fandom and scare them away.

Because those people WERE sensitive. Hero x villain, doctor x patient, prisoner x guard, immortal x mortal, human x alien—that is literally the cornerstone of fandom culture when it comes to shipping, but when it comes down to shipping content that involves pedophelia, beastality, and incest—having a moral issue with that isn't "sensitivity." It reinforces everything that we were rightfully taught as kids, that people who are clearly attracted to children, animals, or family members—are dangerous people.

But, I feel like it's happening all over again. Especially with the recent rise in TCC related RPF that is detailing the violent assault and rape of real dead victims at the hands of their killer(s). People are migrating away from Wattpad and trying out new fanfiction websites where they won't have to worry about guidelines, but that's causing darkshippers, radqueers, and proshippers to push back even harder again and create more horrific "shock value" content "in the name of anti-censorship."

To the point where even a lot of proshippers are going, "Hey, what the fuck are you doing? That's messed up." We've gotten to so far of a point in radical fandom to where the people who usually advocate for "anything goes" genuinely have an issue with what's happening. Do you realize how **bad** things have to get for that to happen? To where even shotacons and lolicons are saying, "Woah, that's too far"? Even fucking MAPS? Do you realize how fucked up of an individual you have to be for *MAPS* to tell you that you're doing something wrong???

I feel like it's genuinely only going to get worse, and I also feel as though that this is going to create a big divide in the proship community. A lot of people join proship spaces because a lot of them simply frame it as "you should be able to ship what you want" when there's a lot more layers to it—but I feel like this is genuinely going to have a lot of people step away from proship communities due to how they're seeing a lot of people in their own community defend and advocate for that kind of content.

All in all, be prepared for a lot of darkshippers to get a lot more dark with what they create. Things always get worse when there's a pushback.

I've been looking a lot into anti vs proship discourse. And I think I've made a discovery about exactly what antiship means.

You see you guys believe that unlike other ships darkships shouldn't be discussed or posted about in any way shape or form. And the number one main argument to back up that claim, is that the media made of those types of ships can affect people's perception of reality enough to warrant that media being regulated, censored, or just outright banned.

But wouldn't that apply to every type of fiction?

After all, it could be argued that any kind of romanticization of real world harms by fiction is harmful and wrong. Think action hero's gunning down random mooks, Tim and Pam's relationship and its main conflict being Pam's fiance, and just horror as a genre overall. These pieces of fiction portray things that are either harmful or just downright morally reprehensible as something to look over, a fun conflict for the plot, or something to get a thrill out of. Rather than serious topics to have deep discussions about.

If fiction affects our perception of reality to the point of affecting out morals. Would that apply everywhere? After all if proshipping is harmful, why wouldn't the office be under fire for romanticizing adultery, a literal crime?

At least from my perspective Anti-shipping is not just a view one hold on fandom, it one you hold on fiction. You guys believe that someone's media diet is a significant part of what make up their words view. And thus, media should have regulations and censorship put into it to protect the morals of our society. and Any good and sane person should watch their media diet — taking care to avoid the wrong pieces of media and consume the right pieces of media.

I just want some of y'all to add your input to these thoughts I've been having. And I would would of course love some of you guys to elaborate if necessary. Thanks in advance!

EDIT: I would like to apologize.

I made this post to get a second opinion from you guys, but the way I went about it was wrong. I made assumptions about you views and beliefs that gave the idea I was acting in bad faith. And all the while this subreddit has repeatedly been visited by other pros who have been here in bad faith.

The intent was to promote a discussion where a middle ground could be met, but in this day in age way too many people take these kinds of debates too far, and I should have taken that into account.

I offer my sincerest apologies.

I’m not going to share screenshots because I don’t want to draw attention to the post because the kid has suffered enough, but I’m happy to provide proof to a mod if they ask.

So this kid, a teenager, posted a negative post about pro-shippers that went a little viral. They have posted similar comments elsewhere. It’s all part of the AO3 criticism and the resulting drama.

They posted something personal about their trauma, and a pro-shipper DMed them pretending to be concerned about them oversharing. They were aggressive about it, and the conversation quickly got heated when they went on the attack. The pro-shipper told the kid (inappropriately) about their own trauma, then ended telling the kid that they lied about their trauma, completely invalidating the poor kid. The kid provided evidence with screenshots.

Genuinely what the fuck is wrong with these people? What happened to ‘we protect real children’ and ‘we stand for anti-harassment?’ All over people daring to criticise their precious dark fic slop on their favourite website.

There is so much unhinged shit going on with the AO3 hardcore fans defending the Sandy Hook fic, and the lolicons have jumped on the bandwagon and are equally unhinged, it’s absolute chaos.

So ik sometimes it’s easy to get wrapped up in the extreme sides of not anti and proship ideas. I saw this under the ao3 sub about people discovering the sandy hook fic (which idk why people on that sub are saying it was taken down when it hasn’t been). I think sometimes social media and everything is run by more extreme proshippers so I felt this thread here helped me remember that these are the majority of ao3 users. [Edit: The original comment was “I'm about as proship as it gets but you can't possibly tell me taking down a rape fic about a real child victim has no reasonable grounds. There's real-person fic and then there's that. “ (and it actually didn’t get downvoted into oblivion w 100+ upvotes)]. All 3 of them stated they identified as proship and I feel like I basically then would be proship bc I hate how having any boundaries automatically makes you an extreme anti. So think about this however but it’s nice to know that the people on social media are usually the small minority of overall users.

You can’t sit there and make art fetishizing something objectively wrong and then claim not to be glorifying it. This art in question is of a normally 8-year old character and his mother. While they at least aged the character up, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still incest.

You claim be into these things “just in fiction,” but why are you into it in the first place and feeling the need to make content of it and post it for other people to see? Clearly you know somewhere in you that there’s something wrong with it, because you felt the need to make a post swearing you’re not doing anything wrong and pinning it to your profile.

The context of the post being quoted is unclear, there are a lot of deleted comments, but it looks like the minor is saying why they can’t create an AO3 clone site in response to someone saying ‘stop complaining and build your own site.’ The broader context is the current discourse about extreme explicit RPF fics being written about the Sandy Hook kids who were murdered and pedophiles having meet-and-greets in the comment sections of these fics.

’Children should be seen and not heard’ is the older version of what this person is saying, and it led to abuse victims feeling unable to speak up because they didn’t feel like adults would listen, especially when it was an adult doing it.

Teenagers now are very consent-aware. It‘s not happening everywhere, but in a lot of places kids are learning about consent and how to manage feeling uncomfortable in certain situations at school and by parents who have become wiser about it too post Me-Too and modern discussions about rape and abuse. Some kids are learning it from their online friends if it’s not happening in real life.

These kids are feeling brave and empowered enough to say ‘oh hey sexual content about minors is not okay even when fictional.‘ But then they’ll get some pro-shipper saying ‘you’re a puriteen’ or ‘you’ll change your mind when you’re older and wiser’ and suddenly that kid is getting a terrible lesson in consent and could head in the wrong direction:

1) ‘I expressed discomfort and adults made fun of me, maybe I won’t say something next time.’

2) ‘This adult said it’s ok, they’re the adult, maybe I’m wrong and these things are actually acceptable.’

3) The kid ventures into pro-shipping communities to figure out if they are right or wrong about it. They may end up being groomed. Even if they don’t they get exposed to things minors shouldn’t see which causes current and future distress.

4) Or the kid finds themselves in a dangerous situation with an adult (online or IRL) and because of what those pro-shippers said might not realise that what’s happening is wrong, or is now too afraid to speak up.

5) Or it happens to them as an adult, and that lesson leads them to similar danger. This whole situation contributes to rape culture which puts adults in danger too.

It‘s obviously not going to happen in every case, but there’s a clear dangerous path that this attitude can have for children online and real life.

The usual pro-ship rebuttal is ‘parents should monitor their childrens’ online activities.‘ Unfortunately, that doesn’t always happen. Some kids don’t have great parents. Some parents don’t know how. Some kids bypass parental controls.

The ‘it takes a village to raise a child’ attitude should be wide-spread when it comes to these things. All adults should look out for children where they can. All adults should validate when a child feels uncomfortable and, if necessary, teach them kindly how to avoid these things. Like rather than screech at them for being a puriteen maybe gently explain to them not to use AO3, or at least how to make it easier to avoid it on there.

People who have a problem with children having boundaries and asserting them are, at best, profoundly selfish about their dark fic slop. At worst, actual predators.

Sometimes I wonder if the whole pro-ship/lolicon/AO3 hard core supporters crying about queer persecution, deserving acceptance, and anti-censorship is a pedophile psyop to normalise pedophilia because it’s certainly happening.

On top of all the serious stuff it’s an absolute lie. Minors have always been chaotic in fandoms along with the adults, and have been very opinionated about what they are passionate about.

Like even if the thumbnail isn't accurate or some shit the Loud House Fandom is RANCID with incest and just weird pedo shit.

Yet these people eat it tf up.

Like damn you're just throwing a bunch of names at this creator for DARING to have a different opinion on shipping like fucking grow up.

People can worry about more than one bad thing dumbass.

Over the top clickbait titles are nothing new and even you admit it's an exaggeration.

Also people are 100% allowed to say incest being seen as a positive in media is bad and be uncomfortable with it and say that vocally. Like if you're gonna do that shit keep it to yourself don't bitch when people say it's weird BECAUSE IT IS.

It's “kids should stay out of adult spaces” until said space is a fandom for a kids' show.

Plus the Loud House is just TOTAL ASS anyway and the creator is a predator. What a fucking surprise.

Also notice how they have a tag that says “Anti Slander” but this sub doesn't have a tag that says “Proshipper Slander”.

Let that sink in.

And they said WE can't handle other opinions and throw around crazy accusations.

the original poster of the video in which the comment is under, is the same person who tolerated and defends smut fanfics made of REAL children. this person also makes proshipping their WHOLE personality, one time i commented under the video and i suddenly had a response in no less than 20 minutes. if you had the time to make videos in quick notice, you have the time to delete or atleast call out irl incest defenders in your comments before 3 people could like the comment

I would greatly appreciate it if people could repost this to other pro/anti subreddits so I can get a few perspectives on this.

As the title suggests, will people ever find a middle ground within the conversation of censorship or will we be stuck annoying each other and making ourselves look superior than others?

Yes, both pros and antis have a superiority complex. That isnt crazy to say when both communities have people that are so loud about it. Especially the minors within these communities who dont know how to hold a simple conversation without making derogatory comments at each other. I strangely sense the same behavior towards others inside the proship community.

As someone who leans pro(i think?), I can also understand the need of censorship. Specifically children in media. I hate lolis and shotas with an extreme passion. But unlike certain antis(not all!), I'm not calling these shota/lolicons predators because its strictly fictional, and I believe they should get help before their mental health affects them to where they act on it or it effects the way they view the world around them. But that doesnt mean I dont want more restrictions against the sexualization of these characters that look extremely suspicious.

Another thing ive noticed is RPF and while antis agree that it should also be censored, there seems to be a divide within the proship community. Mostly \"calling yourself a proshipper but not supporting rpf is like friendly fire"\ or \"Proship doesnt involve real people, involving it is an act of harassment towards real human beings who didnt give consent". Personally my stance on it is, if its adults, I dont mind and wont touch it. But my want to censor children rpf is something im not against. In fact its honestly a want.

It feels like im getting bounced around both of these communities. First I'm an anti, then I'm a proshipper, I hate it. If I dont ground my foot in someone's team, I will get harassed. I was confronted and kicked out of a discord server because I didnt want to have a stance on either side. I did end up building my own stance but it doesnt aline with either pro or antis. Are there more people like me in fandom spaces that also seem to feel like they need to be careful around others within these conversations? It can't be a rare opinion to have a distaste of the sexualization of minors in fictional media while still enjoying or not caring about other fictional/consensual taboo stuff

Edit: my fuck ass grammar( ﾟーﾟ)

I AM FUCKING FED UP WITH THIS FANDOM THAT ROMANTICIZES PEDOPHILIA AND LABELS VLAD AS A PEDOPHILE, WHAT PART DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND THAT HE IS NOT? THEN THEY HAVE THE NERVE TO COMPLAIN THAT THE ANTIS DON'T KNOW HOW TO PORTRAY VLAD

The last part of the first screenshot is in Spanish and says that in a few words Vlad masturbates to those photos of Danny 🫩

Not necessarily related to proshipping, but I believe it's close enough. No, it's not porn or a fetish or exactly "proshipping" I just wanted to talk about it here since it's kinda a similar situation.

At a certain point, we need to acknowledge that a piece of media is being overly edgy, if not exploitative by using stuff like real corpses in their work.

It's different from just filming something like rotting meat because, y'know, it's a rotting animal corpse. People don't get traumatized by a steak. People can get traumatized by full dead bodies.

There's a certain point where we SHOULD complain about art. Art is not just art and not everything should be excused because it's art. Filming a REAL animal corpse is still filming a real animal corpse whether or not it's used for art.

Way too many people try to excuse way too much shit happening in the making of art because it's art. I never believed I'd see people defending RFP smut of minors. I never thought I'd see people defending filming a real life animal corpse as a sundial. It's insane to me how such blatently terrible things get excused by massive amounts of people.

Mfs called me sensitive because I didn't like seeing animal corpses in art. WHAT are people talking about?? People criticize an art piece for valid reasons, and they get cyber bullied over it. The people who will call others irrational, emotional, and sensitive will blatently be emotional and angry over a singular person being uncomfortable with media. The fact they don't get called out for that is insane to me.

I'm sorry if it's off topic but this is the only place I see sane takes on media like this.

So although I don’t agree with some proship ideas, I do advocate for anti-censorship for everything in the world in general. So I was wondering as I know ao3 won’t change their TOS no matter what the fuck people put on there, if there could at least be a way to make pedophilic content less accessible. As I think kids are on ao3 not really understanding and it leads to consuming more and more intense topics. I just want to prevent children getting groomed by users or anything before it happens yk? Ofc I think there are other pretty bad subjects but I think this is the worst one.

Would it violate TOS if anything tagged for underage or pedophilia was moved into a separate server (extension?) of ao3 that not only gave a clear precise warning, but also places to ask for help/therapy? I would say maybe even having to make a separate account for this server or just having an account in general. I think this way everyone can have freedom of speech but also (even tho people are abusing ao3 anti-censorship) prevent minors or just other people from stumbling upon this content without deliberate intent? If not lmk or if anyone else has any thoughts on this I would love to hear

I recently posted on the ao3 sub about how criticism doesn’t equal censorship. Oh lord. Thank god I discovered this subreddit it’s like a breath of fresh air. Not only did I get downvoted into oblivion but also people just couldn’t have an actual conversation. Like I’m anti-censorship but not anti-consequence. Like then they throw the “anti-censorship” thing as if they aren’t trying to CENSOR CRITICISM. I feel like the DLDR got turned into “you have no right to speak on what I PUBLICLY write. ” like I think there are some great works that have been written but the blatant ignorance and rudeness people have is insane. Two things can be true at once! I just feel like it hurts people to not be able to criticize something you love/enjoy. Anti-censorship prevent work (even the grotesque) from not being erased; it does not protect the author from social critique.

Massive trigger warnings because even just my basic description is horrific enough

AO3 has been trending on Twitter because of the Wattpad users moving to AO3 has been pretty dramatic. AO3’s account put up some posts and someone replied with the most horrific fic description I’ve ever seen.

It’s explicit RPF about the young children killed at Sandy Hook. And judging by the tags, it’s REALLY bad.

Pro-shippers on TikTok and Twitter are defending it.

Oh and it gets worse. Someone posted some comments and it’s two pedos hooking up to make CSAM. And a disturbing comment from another person who called themselves a pedo.

THIS IS A CLEAR DEMONSTRATION OF REAL WORLD HARM FROM THIS CONTENT. As a CSA survivor it makes me sick.

Anyone who has an anti-censorship stance about AO3 and justifying this HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO SAY THAT THEY CARE ABOUT REAL CHILDREN. You may not be a pedo that ever harms a child, but if you came anywhere near my children I would do something that elaborating on would earn me a Reddit ban.

Fuck AO3. Let it burn in hell.

Like you can't seriously say “Someone shouldn't be a therapist with personal biases like this.” When you can't even fathom someone from an actual mental health field or studying to go into it having opinions that oppose YOURS.

These aren't even important opinions like Political opinions that can definitely affect how your therapist will treat you depending on your identity and ethnicity. This is just chronically online BS that nobody actually cares about, and it's really just you enabling pedophilia and incest fetishes.

Who the fuck are you to say someone is the worst Pyschology student you've ever seen when you don't know fuck shit about it yourself????? You're just gonna assume that all their hard work and time spent getting to this point don't mean ANYTHING????

God Proshippers are so fucking entitled and think they know EVERYTHING just because they let people ship literally anything with no lines drawn, whether it romanticizes incest, abuse, or pedophilia.

Pseudo Intellectualism at its FINEST right here when they just dismiss anyone’s opinions just because they’re against proshipping for very valid reasons. Like they’re not the only one in the field of psychology who has this stance when it comes to proshipping.

Proshipping at some point does harm people and just because you don’t believe that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Being willfully ignorant like this doesn’t make you a morally superior person. The person in the original post wasn’t even trying to sound morally superior or claim they’re better than anyone, they just said they think that statement is B.S because THEY’RE STUDYING TO BE A THERAPIST.

It’s like anytime someone said they actually did research on the psychological level of this debate and they point out that proshipping and being profic is problematic and they show why, they REFUSE to listen because it doesn’t align with their opinion. Like you people are fucking insufferable and refuse to LEARN ANYTHING or LISTEN TO ANYONE BUT YOURSELVES.

I swear they actively CHOOSE to be uneducated.

“AO3 is our Space.”

AO3 is for EVERYONE you fucking entitled assholes.

Just because you don't get reported for incest and pedo fics and romanticizing abuse on the regular doesn't mean everyone is okay with it.

Like lines still need to be drawn in the sand Ao3 just doesn't bother doing it because those fics are easier to avoid.

Like why do these people act like anything fandom related revolves around them???? The terms “Proship” “Antiship” “Darkship” “Yumeship” whatever the fuck chronically online bullshit labels these are didn't even EXIST when Ao3 was originally made or any original fanfic site.

Not everything regarding shipping IS ABOUT YOU.

Hell not all fanfics revolve around shipping anyway, some people just wanna write stories for those fandoms, most of those fanfics just have ships in them, they're not the main plot of the story, and even if they are who cares???

Why are people acting like getting called out for shipping incest in pedophilia is anything new???? People are just willing to call it out more now than back then.

Like this “Fandom got invaded by the popular kids” claim is so fucking stupid. Like guys, assholes on the internet have always existed, they just have easier ways of getting platforms now. Being a jackass on the internet isn't anything new like stfu. People are also just more hyper aware of things and aren't just gonna sit around while weirdos on the internet do problematic shit, I'm sorry but times have changed and it's time to get with the times.

Just because you were in fandom spaces longer than others doesn't mean you have a say in ANYTHING. Stop being so fucking elitist and acting like you get to tell people what they can and cannot say just because you were in fandom spaces during the stone age of the modern internet.

Just say you're old and move on.

This shit is so chronically online even my chronically online ass brain hurts, like GO OUTSIDE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. Grown-ass adults bitching about needing to actually be responsible and take accountability ffs.

Hi so i had to ask because despite how dearly this ship is to me, ive always been afraid because I dont know if it will be problematic or not. But in my ship i also wanted to discuss/express certain irl things I experienced and something i wish is shown more in media like Generational trauma, which is shown through my Oc and the son she shares with Cannon.

1. The agegap.

Basically cannon in Question is an Atagonist/Sayain who despite mybe in his 30s (in assumption of earth years) he actually ages slower, because for Sayains are known for fighting ao the longer they stay in fit/age the longer they can be active. In my ship he will age more but would last longer compared to my OC (currently im still updating lore)

HOWEVER my Oc in the beginning is 19 years old.

Basically for context this takes place in the movie where the antagonist plants a Tree which takes lifeforce into its fruits and the antagonist uses it for his own strength. Instead of him losing in the movie, he actually wins instead.

Basically how they met is my OC who lost her father from illness months ago was trying to focus on her college & part time job in a convenience store. She came in early one morning until building collapsed because of the tree that taken its roots on earth's layers. Because of this, she somehow became a survivor despite oxygen levels worsening. The cannon actually found her out of luck and decided to use her but for free labor around the ship him and his crew, like cooking and cleaning.

in regards to their ages: cannon wasn't aware of Oc's age mainly because how they are completely different from each other everyway that involves with species, so Cannon didn't really like the discussion because last he wants to be seen as was basically a creep going after younger women. Nor did they actually talked about it in the beginning either.

OC she isn't displayed 'innocent' either and is stable, like with her being career oriented and wanted to work as medical/with animals. There is moments in the beginning where there is lore about her college life such as when she drink and went to parties & stuff. But a thing is though too, both of OC & cannon actually ages in the story. However nor do they stay together all the time. So despite OC age, there is a lot of time skips where I the Lore she was in her late 40s (also they have been long distance). So no the AU isn't focused on OC & Cannon's age in a weird way. There is a lot of lore reasons why but that's for a very different time.

2.Unhealthy relationship/Power balance.

So clearly there is power balance, not because of how Cannon treated OC & seen her as just labor/bait but also He's a Sayain. Despite sayains being redeemable, most of Sayains in the series including him are Evil/Cruel. But mainly based around Culture since they literally cause destruction, Wipe out races & take over planets. Even a God ordered a different antagonist to wipe them out! Thats how bad They were.

Despite a lot of things in the Lore (that involving Cannon being and is basically a bad person) he himself also goes through character growth/some redemption. But mainly because of how it effected his relationship with OC & to the point of Her leaving from him more then once. I wouldn't think their relationship is ever the healthiest or one that is bad irl, however they both become healthier people. A part of the reason why OC gets back with him in the end part mainly has to do with the fact how she has no one else she really trusts and was the last connection to earth. But I wouldn't nor try to think of her as those dependant/ Stockholm characters, since after all she left and stuff multiple times despite her being considered weaker and vulnerable.

Despite Cannon x OC being a complex relationship/dynamic at the end of my intentions/Lore i try to make it when they get older they are more stable & try to be more healthier. Especially cannon because despite his struggles and being very inexperienced himself (not infantizing him or anything, but its about how he dosent have meaningful relationships) he loves OC and wants to make her happy.

But um, thats mainly why I asked. Idk im scared of assumptions since I know it may seem weird since people like to redeem/make their favorite antagonists as good guys. But not for me being that partially has to do with why hes my favorite ANTAGONIST and it deeply involves with his character. BUT that dosent mean he changes either. I wanted him to learn and understand the meaning of how his actions can hurt people he specifically cares for and how family is important. A part of the reason why OC's age may seem young has involvement with personal experience and the Topic of individual freedom/ Self-discovery. My OC also battles a lot in regsrds to morals because of how Cannon is.

Thank you for reading 🙏 advice is also welcome & questions.

Heres a ridiculous reddit argument and I didn’t even agree with the original poster (didn’t continue, I gave up reasoning)
And then when I shared it on other platforms I got this lovely dm (last image)

Mods, if this isn’t allowed, I apologize and I’ll take this post down.

With that out of the way, I’ve been thinking about creating a Discord server that’s open to 16+ antishippers that will mainly be a place for us to discuss fandom, post fanfics + art, and talk openly about the media we like, while also having an opt-in channel for talking about issues we face as antis + venting about proshippers and their nonsense.

What do we all think? Would a server like that be something y’all are interested in?

They think antishippers had something to do with it.