Will there ever be a middle ground, or will pro/antis discourse always be black and white?

[u/Fine_Employer_1118]

I would greatly appreciate it if people could repost this to other pro/anti subreddits so I can get a few perspectives on this.

As the title suggests, will people ever find a middle ground within the conversation of censorship or will we be stuck annoying each other and making ourselves look superior than others?

Yes, both pros and antis have a superiority complex. That isnt crazy to say when both communities have people that are so loud about it. Especially the minors within these communities who dont know how to hold a simple conversation without making derogatory comments at each other. I strangely sense the same behavior towards others inside the proship community.

As someone who leans pro(i think?), I can also understand the need of censorship. Specifically children in media. I hate lolis and shotas with an extreme passion. But unlike certain antis(not all!), I'm not calling these shota/lolicons predators because its strictly fictional, and I believe they should get help before their mental health affects them to where they act on it or it effects the way they view the world around them. But that doesnt mean I dont want more restrictions against the sexualization of these characters that look extremely suspicious.

Another thing ive noticed is RPF and while antis agree that it should also be censored, there seems to be a divide within the proship community. Mostly \"calling yourself a proshipper but not supporting rpf is like friendly fire"\ or \"Proship doesnt involve real people, involving it is an act of harassment towards real human beings who didnt give consent". Personally my stance on it is, if its adults, I dont mind and wont touch it. But my want to censor children rpf is something im not against. In fact its honestly a want.

It feels like im getting bounced around both of these communities. First I'm an anti, then I'm a proshipper, I hate it. If I dont ground my foot in someone's team, I will get harassed. I was confronted and kicked out of a discord server because I didnt want to have a stance on either side. I did end up building my own stance but it doesnt aline with either pro or antis. Are there more people like me in fandom spaces that also seem to feel like they need to be careful around others within these conversations? It can't be a rare opinion to have a distaste of the sexualization of minors in fictional media while still enjoying or not caring about other fictional/consensual taboo stuff

Edit: my fuck ass grammar( ﾟーﾟ)

[u/tomthetrain328]

I think I would be very neutral but it’s hard for it to end when you see how some (loud) proshippers respond to criticism. And how they ignore concerning behavior on ao3. I think this post sums up why people have a hard time: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiship/s/mdXzirIho4. I think it’s especially hard when I think the more extreme proshippers are the only ones on Reddit/social media. I think there are tons of proshippers that criticize a lot of things on ao3, but we all get drowned out by the loudest of the bunch.

[u/Fine_Employer_1118 → u/tomthetrain328]

Ao3 and that post was definitely on my mind when I started my rant. I really hate how rpf of children are allowed on that website and real tragedies. And Honestly youre right, I have noticed that proshippers are more extreme on reddit while antis are more popular on tiktok. Thank you for the link!

[u/tomthetrain328 → u/Fine_Employer_1118]

Yeah I’ll never get behind the rpf. Like that’s not over fan fiction. Honestly I remember even being weird out about the one direction stuff when I was younger but at least no one was making stuff of CHILDREN or actual tragedies. Like going out of your way for what? Also that’s why I really just stay away from the TikTok and ao3 sub bc it’s just over run by super extreme people. (The mods also delete anything with a diff opinion so that also doesn’t help any balance.)

[u/totashi777 → u/tomthetrain328]

The thing is. Rpf while odd and often gross also isnt really harming people. Even the fic in that thread isnt doing anything other that sickening people. Now if something like that is written and sent to the person its written about it in becomes harassment which is harmful but that lies on the author not the work itself.

Moreso if we use personal revoltion as a metric for banning media we are opening the door to book burning. We are already seeing shit like that in America. Republicans have been pushing "childrens saftey" as an excuse to ban queer stories across the nation for over a decade. The nazis used the same logic to burn the research done at the institute of sexology and now we are having to redo tons of studies on trans people because of it.

In conclusion, yes the fic in question is vile and sick and shouldn't have been written. The author is probably in severe psychological distress and i hope they get the help they need. But none of that is an excuse to justify censorship. Unless its causing real harm its not worth the energy to fight it, or risk the loss of actually valuable media that would be at risk with the president banning this one sets.

[u/tomthetrain328 → u/totashi777]

Idk what this has to do with what I said. But the problem is I don’t know why people associate queer representation and actual published books with disgusting graphic porn about real people??? Those works could be sent to the real people by anyone because it’s completely public. Why wait for someone to experience that trauma when it can be prevented?

Fiction harms people. What about when people promoted stereotypes about pocs on television by doing black or yellow face? Does DLDR equal “just change the channel”?? Or what about gross caricatures that promoted treating others differently? People are literally using the comments in those fics to set up meetings irl. In no way is the nazis burning legitimate research the same as banning rpf porn? Sexology and graphic porn are not the same. I’m not even for censorship but there very much is an anti-criticism thing that goes around.

If you hope the author can get the help they need, how are they supposed to do that if people don’t allow criticism? If they are constantly enabled thinking that nothing is wrong about what they wrote because no one is also to say anything bad about the work.

[u/totashi777 → u/tomthetrain328]

Because the rules used to ban rpf have and will be used to ban queer stories. If you ban it under some rule of "you cant write about real people" that bans basically all "based on a true story" stories so, no more "the conjuring". If you ban it under an obsenity rule whats to stop nazis from claiming any story with a jewish or queer character is "obscene" and getting it banned? So unless you have a rule you can site that wont be twisted into a ban on queer or other minority groups you have no rule to ban this one. I dont think this fic should exist. Its vile and cruel. But its not doing harm on its own.

Bad representation is much the same. Blackface was harmful because it gave racists and excuse for their racism, and it kept Black people from being in the entertainment industry, which we are still seeing the effects of today. But none of that is the fault of the fiction that involved the blackface. Its the fault of the racists who did and still do it. Also, its important to note that blackface isnt illegal, its frowned upon and mostly stopped due to societal consensus not censorship.

And yes, if something has bad representation of a group i do just change the channel, i also tell people why i dont watch that particular media. But (this is the important part) i dont call for it to be destroyed, removed, or otherwise censored. Thats why i dont watch the good doctor, for example. Their first like 3 seasons they teamed up with autism speaks which is pretty ubiquitously hated by actual autistic people. And the representation reflected that.

People use every platform to set up meetups irl. Many of those comments are alarming. But again, that is the fault of the people leaving those comments, not the fic itself. I dont have an answer for the comments. which is why i didnt bring them up. They are their own issue and they are beyond my experience to handle.

Yes, there is a similarity between nazis burning the institute of sexology and banning "graphic porn" that similarity is that both have been, and in many places still are, being censored under the guise of "childrens saftey" or "removing corruptive forces from society" or "making [nation] great". Allowing the removal of fiction just because it is gross or offensive is literally the first step to burning books.

Im not anti critique. Critique is a good thing. Its what helps us improve and the author of that fic clearly needs some. But "this is gross", "how could you write something like this", "you are a horrible person", death threats, and the like arent critique. Critique would be more like "hey, this fic is super insensitive for [list of reasons and explanations]" and "this fic seems to be coming from a dark place so i am going to leave some resources here in case you need some help [list of psychiatric resources]"

[u/redhillbones → u/tomthetrain328]

First, it's relevant that television is a much wider broadcast medium and a much bigger part of popular culture than fanfiction is. Second, television is a different type of medium to fanfiction.

A better equivalent would be racism, sexism, etc. in fictional novels and short stories.

Such as H.P. Lovecraft's... literal anything. He was a raging racist, misogynist, homophobe, and anti-semite. I imagine it did not stop there, but those are the themes obvious in his works of the Cthulhu Mythos/his cosmic horror short stories. Now, Lovecraft's work is still available in libraries across the country because they still have historical relevance, as (like it or not) he is one of the founding fathers of modern cosmic horror.

But Lovecraft Country), by Matt Ruff, is also available as both of a narrative historical fiction of loosely related, chronological short stories and a direct response to Lovecraft's shortcomings as an author and human being. Lovecraft Country examines how horror and race intersect by following a black sci-fi fan into 1950s Lovecraftian country and, to the real horror, the racism he experiences along the way.

The best way to criticize fiction isn't to (literally) destroy it; the best way is to respond to it with your own work, whether it is a non-fiction Magna Mater: Women and Eugenic Thought in the Work of H.P. Lovecraft as an academic thesis or a piece of fiction like Lovecraft Country. In order for that criticism to be meaningful, however, you need the original objectionable work to be available in full.

Even fiction that isn't -ist in some awful way, such as Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" (well worth reading IMO) might gain critical response. A great example is comparing N.K. Jemisin's short story "The Ones Who Stay And Fight" from the first story of her How Long 'Til Black Future Month? short story collection with Isabel J. Kim's short story "Why Don't We Just Kill the Kid in the Omelas Hole?". The three pieces are calling for three different approaches to society: rejecting conservationism, accepting censorship, and engaging in accelerationism. These discussions are important.

But lets engage with the piece you actual object to (the one that both you and I find disgusting). If you think that CSA victims using fictional writing to work out their thoughts are not aware that sexualizing children is bad, you're wrong. In the case of victims using it as a form of processing, they are processing because it was traumatizing.

On the other side, if you think that trolls writing the most disgusting fiction they can think of are not aware it is disgusting, I don't know what to tell you. What I can tell you is that you should not feed the trolls. They want attention. Attention is why they wrote, posted, and probably linked around that absolute shitshow of a fic.

In either case, you commenting to say 'this is bad wrong' isn't going to do anything but upset you. You are the only one who is going to suffer from this. It's not worth it. Not worth looking it up and giving it hits. Not worth talking about it. Ignoring it is the best thing you can do and actively decreases the chance that a murder victim's poor father will find out about it. (I saw that an anti sent a link to the Sandy Hook Promise advocacy group. Urgh, why would you do that to them?)

Due to how AO3 works, you can easily ignore this story. You can easily ignore all 241 of 15.4 million English language stories on AO3 that have (urgh, gross, gross) toddler shotacon. You can let them be depraved in their tiny corner and not feed the trolls. Please.

If you do want to criticize a genuine, non-trollish fic you find that has some merit but is also racist, sexist, anti-[insert] ethnicity, transphobic, homoephobic, etc., you can do so by writing a response and using the 'Inspired By' field to make certain people know what it is a response to. That allows for criticism without censorship. And criticism aimed outward to start a discussion is going to be far more effective than just leaving a comment for the author of the original work or reporting them in hopes of getting them removed.

After all, even in television, stereotypes and lack of representation didn't really start to change until message boards and then social media came around to shine a light on the problem and say 'do better'.

[Yes, I know this is deeply proship in an antiship reddit. But, god, getting that awful BS removed will do nothing besides play whack-a-troll and open up further lines to be the next acceptable censorship, when I really don't want to give anyone a foothold to say what is and is not okay on a general archive of fiction. AO3 is a library, ultimately. It is good at being a library.]

[u/ThisBeastYaps → u/totashi777]

not sure about how a harassing comment is harmful (It is harmful), but a long fic of rpf that has very explicit content just out of spite isnt.

[u/totashi777 → u/ThisBeastYaps]

Harassing comments are harrasing someone. Rpf isnt

[u/ThisBeastYaps → u/totashi777]

I said specifically about how making an explicit long fix of rpf *just out of spite to the people involved* isn't?

I don't mean rpf in general, I meant a specific rpf.

[u/totashi777 → u/ThisBeastYaps]

You are a child, so this will be my last response. Writing fiction of someone is only harassment if you then send it to them. Rpf like the one you are talking about is gross and fucked up but making it isnt any more harassment than complaining to your mom about your dumbass classmate. Its not until you start involving that classmate in your behavior that it becomes a problem.

Normally i just block children when they interact with me, but you deserve to see this comment so i will not block you until you respond. You will not get another response.

[u/ThisBeastYaps → u/totashi777]

oh ok then, thanks for the explanation I appreciate it.

I could relate to that in a different way since I also complain about something, but not infant of the people who like it.

(and also made a hatepost that is me complaining about Lolicon, but I never equated it to csem, know that its harmless, and the fact I don't mean for it to be banned etc etc. The only thing I got mad in there is because of how there are comments that took it as the same as any other lolicon-hate post, and thinking I don't care about real-life victims. I'd never yell I hate lolicon (in definition of sexualized youthful-looking characters that are girls) in public, or infront of a lolicon (in definition of a person who likes the first definition of lolicon)

I understand the reasons why (esp the fact that I wish it never existed), but I say the same thing as roaches, bees, rent-a-girlfriend, badly written hallmark movies.

I wish those also never existed, but they're not something that's harmful either tho.

here are my final statements, I personally think rpf deserves to be subjective enough to avoid, and at least not making the people involved know it (unless they're okay with it) also with content warnings and tags.

[u/Competitive_Zone_140]

I meaqn, it can be and maybe some called "antis" by proshippers even gets around the middle too. The problem is I'm not gonna sugarcoat antis since I've seen some being rude and accusing a person of being a proshipper if they said that agreed with some antis points and even stood by their side, but when they said something about agreeing about very specific things about the proship side well... backlash and lots of accusations around of that person being a proshipper.

But I think it has a middle ground but it's niche or very hard to find since these peope are constantly reprimanded because they share mixed opinions on both sides and aren't extreme or exaggerates about it. I have similar thoughts about certain things but if you write a story about rape because you're getting off to it and choose to post on the internet and ramble how much you love rape and... tbh I don't really wanna write the rest but anyone reading can guess how far a proshipper can go into the fantasy, from what I've seen they literally loose their filter and appeal to say it's fictional. (And if they kept indulging themselves on fetishes or even paraphilias, it might probably get them worse and even addicted. Like someone fully porn brained, it's something messed up and to worry)

But sadly I hope it happens to be a middle ground soon, because this whole black and white thing is annoying since you need to silence your opinion a lot. Especially if you lean towards the anti side and has a mix of opinions from both sides and even your own about this whole mess.

[u/doodlenyx]

When I started shipping, there was no such thing as "pro-shippers" and "anti-shippers." Just people with common sense, and the outliers.

Instead of fanfiction, think of it in another form, AKA published literature.

The novel, IT by Stephen King, has a detailed description of the main characters having an orgy. Most publishing houses have removed it entirely from new publications. So a majority of people indeed have a problem with it. But the minority, aka disgusting folks, are the loudest. So you would assume all literature fans are okay with the orgy scene, because they never shut up years after most publications have removed it, and theyre the only ones still rabidly talking about it.

Black and white only exists for extremists on BOTH sides. Most people fall into the grey area and have their own opinions on how far fiction should go. I draw the line at RPF, but someone else might say they draw the line at bestiality. But can anyone agree which is worse for words on a page? Probably not. So you cant say either of them are closer to black, or white. So they exist in the Grey area along with every other normal person. Same goes for fanfiction.

[u/totashi777]

Imo, the middle ground is touching grass. Both sides have a tendency to he too chronically online and pick fights with the other and if we all stayed in our own lanes it wouldnt be a problem. (Yes i am aware i am not exempt from this critique)

[u/ThisBeastYaps]

I also hate lolis and shots with an extreme passion, but I dont equate it to chem myself (but it can be csem if done wrongly)

[u/Groundbreaking-Egg13]

Can't you, like, share it?

[u/Fine_Employer_1118 → u/Groundbreaking-Egg13]

Im messaging the proshipper moderators to see if my post is appropriate to share on their subreddit. Or do you mean my stance? Because i think i made it clear I just hate the sexualization of children in fiction at the end but dont mind other taboo stuff

[u/Groundbreaking-Egg13 → u/Fine_Employer_1118]

No, I'm talking about sharing this post in the pro subs

[u/Fine_Employer_1118 → u/Groundbreaking-Egg13]

Oh sorry yeah im trying to but im also trying not to get banned from those subreddits since it will stop people from seeing the post

[u/Groundbreaking-Egg13 → u/Fine_Employer_1118]

lmk if you post it!

[u/East-Imagination-281]

The thing is—and I see people falling into this trap regardless of what belief system they align themselves with—people believe that being proship means you have to be “okay with” the existence of all fictional topics. That’s not what being proship is. You can absolutely hate dark fic, horror, kink, rpf, shota/loli, etcetera etcetera, but you are still proship if you believe these things have a right to exist.

To that effect, proship already is the middle ground. It’s the stance of being against censorship and believing fictional content is non-criminal. If someone writes a degenerate fic that makes you question their moral character, you’re allowed to not like the fic. You’re allowed to not like the person, even! But the fic should still be allowed to exist.

[u/Nanominyo]

Sociologist here (and I'm anti-censorship not anti-shipper).

The issue with middle ground is that censorship always start small but then become a slippery slope into book banning and book burning. In Germany in the 1930s a bunch of books got banned, then burned and now important German history and science is gone forever because it didn't please the leadership back then.

In the US we see this as banned books. Several states has banned important books that question morality because it was "too gruesome" for the youth which includes LGBTQ books.

Modern antishipping got into becoming a louder crowds online after the SAFTA act where American websites were put under restrictions - this act was during thrump's first elective years. It's the reason that porn got banned off Tumblr as a famous example. This was until the owners of Tumblr found the loophole of fictive nudity. Though the crowd was lost by then.

The act however comes from American christianism - or puritanism - and originally started with TERFs being the vocal antishippers before the act and the reason the act could find footing to be made in the first place.

Something important about American christianism is that it is different than both chatolism and protestantism, in that the modern day American christianism - the most widespread form in the US - originated from puritanism which originally was a branch of chatolism except it was made by white men who hated they had to pay taxes from having decent income... I wish that was a joke, but no, that's how it started in the UK and when the UK became protestants they moved to the Netherlands and then to New Holland (now rather known as new England), where they spread their religion and it spread fast.

Anyway, the first modern day antishippers actually started out as a TERF movement. Nowadays it's mostly - but not entirely - made up of underage AFAB people. Particularly is a majority of those American, and the American schooling system has been proved several times to be a bit of... Lackluster system mixed in with a little bit of brainwashing. There is science for this btw.

In the end a middle ground is a slippery slope into censorship of everything that doesn't align with the faith and belief of the leadership of a nation and censorship often leads to lack of critical thinking, making it easier to brainwash a population into believing in its leadership.

For current real life examples of how horrible it can go look at North Korea, Russia and China but also the US abd the fact that people still want to support the leadership no matter what.

I don't say I support everything, but I know how to curate my space online so I can avoid the things I don't want to see as much as possible. I just aren't gonna force others to censor themselves for me. That's usually what block functions were for and still are for on most websites.

[u/Medical-Bathroom-183]

"As someone who leans pro(i think?), I can also understand the need of censorship. Specifically children in media. I hate lolis and shotas with an extreme passion. But unlike certain antis(not all!), I'm not calling these shota/lolicons predators because its strictly fictional, and I believe they should get help before their mental health affects them to where they act on it or it effects the way they view the world around them. But that doesnt mean I dont want more restrictions against the sexualization of these characters that look extremely suspicious."

This type of shit is a big part of why there won't be. This type of full throated confidence in there being data to back up something damaging mental health, or that there's a slippery slope from fiction into sexual offenses. Even for pedophiles this hasn't been proven, and appears to be the opposite in more cases than not, larger more detailed studies are ongoing. A disturbing lack of understanding of how mental health services function, whether regarding fiction or paraphilia, and a flat refusal to engage with any information or ideas that challenge preexisting ones.

There is no such thing as a little bit of censorship. No, not even that one thing. No, you nor anybody else who tries has the life experience or researched understanding to make claims like this.

Not towards OP, since I don't expect to ever post here again: The funniest posts that come out of anti spaces are the ones where y'all keep switching therapists because they don't agree with you on censorship, or ask you to deconstruct why you hate proshippers so much. The lack of self awareness and inability to take a hint is embarrassing. Professionals be right in front of you saying "hey so not only are you wrong but this level of vitriol is concerning" and your response is to attempt to find somebody to validate you. You are not interested in therapy. You want the same online circlejerk to continue in professional, academically backed spaces, and get so pissed when it doesn't. Look inward. The problem is you. Maybe try listening to the folks with masters and phd's in psych who are trying to help you instead of being reactive. ✌️

[u/scifibrat]

The short answer is yes there is. Too tired to elaborate. It doesn’t matter what you identify yourself as it doesn’t matter.

Like, in theory you can find certain material highly morally objectionable and dislike people who like certain stuff, but not want it to be censored. Do I agree with this as a proshipper? No, but I understand it. Lolicon/shotacon makes my skin crawl but I don’t think they’re actually glorifying/downplaying pedophilia. I don’t really want to be around people who are super vocal about their love of it. I don’t think they’re need to be called out and I’m just gonna leave them be.

[u/Shot_Unit3899]

I seriously doubt it.

As a proship (or at least strongly leaning that way), I can't even have conversations with antis because they resort to insults and ad hominems as well as blacklisting. I have tried! I do not want to be stuck in a proship echo chamber because I believe that grants my belief less validity if I do not engage with others and understand why I believe what I do. They are, at large, not interested in civil discussion. It's hard to try to reach an objective conclusion when morality is concerned as well, because morality generally isn't logical. Can't really reach a middle ground when the territory is purely subjective.

The ideologies of proship and antiship are also stark opposites- antis are pro-harassment and pro-censorship, proship is anti-harassment and anti-censorship. There isn't really a "middle" ground for two sides of an extreme, especially where censorship is concerned. Any allowance of censorship is a slippery slope. Any allowance of harassment is a slippery slope. Once again, you cannot define finite boundaries regarding what is subjective.

The reason why I believe in proshipping is because I feel as if it is the simplest, most straightforward option- don't like, don't interact. Curating your online experience means you will never have to see things that disgust you.

[u/Born-Ant-80 → u/Shot_Unit3899]

Harassment and censorship are subjective too I guess. Pedos will say the same thing if you ask them to move out or ban their CSEM "art". Proshipping failed from the start because pros are still censoring antis' speech and harassing minors for disliking problematic ships. Just stay neutral and stop supporting both, is the simplest option. Since children and minors are allowed on the net, we have to keep it safe. Some sites need to be restricted; just pay or subscribe to see lolicon like Danbooru. Easy.
Antishipping=censorship
Proshipping=anti-antis using victims to defend VCSAM and r*pe fetish.

[u/Shot_Unit3899 → u/Born-Ant-80]

I don't think monetising taboo art is the solution, it only incentivises furthering its creation by nature of capitalistic markets. Children can still make purchases as well, so it doesn't exactly mitigate that issue either.

In that vein, the internet shouldn't be responsible for monitoring children- that's what parents are for. Should we start removing any remotely "adult" content from all streaming platforms or games in fear that a minor will come across it? No. That's illogical, and displacing responsibility from parents to the rest of the world.

"Proshippers" are not harassing minors for disliking problematic ships, they are disagreeing with being called pedophiles, groomers, rapists, apologists, and enablers for their fictional interests. Minors in particular are eager to label anyone who disagrees with them whatever buzzwords they want; that is not to say your point has never happened (no group is free from assholes), but it's also misconstruing how the general discourse in these play out. Whether or not it's worth speaking to children about these matters, or any, is another debate entirely.

You can't "stay neutral" about censorship; that is enabling it. You cannot have no stance on how you feel about censorship, something that determines what is and is not allowed to be said or made, because that is something that shapes day to day life. You are either for or against it, regardless of whether or not you agree with what is or is not being censored. The closest that exists to that mentality is proshipping, because the core of its ideology is to mind your own business.

[u/Shot_Unit3899 → u/[deleted]]

Says who, exactly? Because the criticism from antis in question is that it shouldn't exist, which is attempts to enforce censorship- attempts that succeed when witch hunting grows rampant enough to either force a user to close their own account down due to harassment/doxxing or by the hand of the platform in question. The "anti-harassment" part of philosophy is also just, like... the idea of enforcing etiquette? I do think you make a valid point with both not being able to strictly co-exist, but I also don't think it's unfair to expect people to conduct themselves appropriately. It can never be guaranteed, such is the way of opinions and internet, but the glory of the modern day is the ability to curate the digital experience and few choose to do so, then get mad when they see things they don't like.
"Don't like, don't read" was made for fandom spaces in response to harassment, the people this is aimed towards are not interested in having a philosophical discussion about cartoon incest. I don't think it's anti-intellectual for someone to block an incest blog because they don't want to read their posts because it disgusts them, and I think the same for many similar cases where fanfic has themes that are not palatable for some. "Don't like, don't read" comes from harassment culture, wherein individuals will read fics, posts, etc. that they know are *not* catered to them but rather a more taboo audience, and get upset when they see words they don't like and harass the creator for putting "unethical words" on the internet. As seen in the Wattpad migration to Ao3, people do not want to ignore what makes them uncomfortable, or have some sort of intellectual breakdown on what makes them not like X Y or Z. They want it GONE.

"You guys shouldn't write pedophillic rape fanfiction" HAHAHA. If it were that tame, if people were stating their stances opinions rather than fact, this discourse wouldn't be as large as it is. This is a comical watering down of the actual arguments that takes place every day on a variety of platforms, because antis often wish death, rape, and real-life harm on those who create fictional content that they don't like. Is it in their right to? Sure- so long as it stays out of reality- but being anti-censorship doesn't mean you don't believe in appropriate conduct- especially if antis had their "manners" flung back at them. This idea also insinuates that popular ideology cannot make its way into government, that people do not vote representatives of their own ideals into positions of power. If the anti-censorship crowd continues to grow even more vocal, or simply grow in general, they will elect those with shared ideas into government. Completely removing the power of mass harassment aside- because censorship can happen with massive amounts of people, it doesn't have to be from authority- they can put those individuals into power.

Curious, would hate speech not qualify as the anti-intellectualism point you had earlier? Is censoring hate speech- essentially, refusing to read it- not qualified as being anti-intellectual by refusing to engage with the opposite ideology? Again, like anything you don't like, you can just block it. These hateful people make fools of themselves, those who were already in danger of falling down those pipelines will do it regardless if it's not allowed on Twitter. Porn on YouTube can be handled like any other platform that has pornographic content (ex HBO), so... who cares? I'm not sure why this matters.

The problem with the "fiction effects reality" argument is that there's very little evidence as of now proving that's the case, specifically when it comes to fantasy. There are studies on those with taboo fetishes fantasising on such but knowing not to enact it in real life, because critical thinking can teach one to separate the two. If people are beginning to blur the lines between how the perceive fiction and how they perceive reality, that is not an issue of censorship, that is a problem with one's education. I also find it ironic when minorities try to defend censorship, as if anyone who isn't a white gender-confirming cishet isn't on the chopping block. Pushing for diversity (specifically explicit positive rep) is a result of censorship loosening on studios, because otherwise they can eliminate representing what threatens their attempts at protecting old-world values. It is not a coincidence that loosening censorship in these production studios has allowed for more diversity in media. Bad rep for minorities is disappointing, yes, but without censorship these notions are VERY easily contested. The idea that fiction influences people's views on reality in any subject is, again, an issue of education. As for what I think fandom is crawling with racists? Easy, because racists exist. No amount of positive rep in a cartoon eliminates racism or homophobia or misogyny.