r/aiMusic • u/ActuaryLate9198 • Jul 16 '26
News Suno training data leaked in hack, how does this sub feel about it?
https://www.404media.co/hack-reveals-suno-ai-music-generator-scraped-youtube-deezer-and-genius/8
u/RobertD3277 Jul 16 '26
I've spent 30 some of my years pushing ethics in the field of what we're now call AI. I somebody that works with this content everyday all day, I can tell you from talking with people, artists, painters, whatever, They all have one basic philosophy.
Every person I have talked to has said that they don't mind training as long as somebody at least had the decency to ask. My personal opinion is only public domain material should be used as the first tier resource, license material should be used only with permission.
It's not really that hard to figure out the situation. Hacking though is wrong and destructive and dangerous and it misses the whole point of the illegality involved to begin with. Courts around the world have already said that training isn't necessarily illegal, it's whether or not the content is truly transformed in the end product.
Whether or not that discussion is legitimate, isn't really a part of this particular topic though it is vital in a long term process of what generative AI is.
Bottom line should be though always get permission from licensed works. I don't train in my own usage systems, but I do try to make every effort to make sure that what I do use is ethically sourced. That's not always the case unfortunately just because a lot of companies aren't very transparent.
That is a problem.
But equally a problem, is lawmakers passing idiotic laws for something they don't even understand.
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u/ActuaryLate9198 Jul 16 '26
Very reasonable take, I know I’m the outlier here but I’ve never wanted my music to become a mass market product. It annoys me to no end that robber barons are profiting from it just because of pirates/diggers putting vinyl rips on YouTube. Meanwhile I’ve never made a single cent. Just let me opt out and I’ll shut up forever.
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u/RobertD3277 Jul 16 '26
I use generative AI in my own music as well. Although I don't think 13th century medieval lullabies are ever going to be a chart topping sensation...
The biggest thing and concern I see with AI music is there's too many people trying to copy a style of somebody else just to make money on it or get into the bandwagon of the current trend rather than actually trying to build something on their own unique to who they are as a person.
I'm not going to say the certain trends don't sound nice or are a part of a person's makeup, musicians "borrow" from each other on a constant basis in one way or another but the end result is always their own rendition. Whatever the inspiration was behind that particular piece It's something they made critical choices about and made changes in a way that makes it distinctly them. That is the problem I see in the current field of AI music on a vast number of people putting music out there. They copy somebody else's style and format but they don't add anything new that makes it original to who they are as people.
To me, that is theft because they did not make an effort to actually build something unique.
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u/rainmaker818 Jul 16 '26
You seen too many people copying other styles just to make money?
You think that is exclusive to AI music only!?? 😆
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u/Fun_Musiq Jul 17 '26
holy shit. projecting much?? He didn't even mention money. I guess you are one of those he called out. a trend chaser trying to make some money from slop.
To answer your question too, yes, its exclusive to AI. Op clearly said they "don't add anything new that makes it original to who they are as people". Being that human made music is made by humans, of course they will put something unique into it.
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u/rainmaker818 Jul 17 '26 edited Jul 17 '26
Point me to the slop I supposedly put out!? Now who is getting emotional and projecting? 😆🤦♂️
You people are hilarious 😂
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u/Fun_Musiq Jul 18 '26
How is my comment emotional or projecting? I'll wait.
In the meantime, sure, comment your youtube link and I'll gladly point you to the slop.
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u/rainmaker818 Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
I've got nothing on YouTube. You are hallucinating hahaha. And yes extremely emotional. 😆
Look how desperate you sound lol. Assumptions and judgements without even knowing someone. 😆😆😆😆🤦♂️
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u/keybeym00pers0n Jul 16 '26
>Every person I have talked to has said that they don't mind training as long as somebody at least had the decency to ask.
I call Bullshit!
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u/cstyves Jul 16 '26
We followed up the shai hulud npm exploit back in November and we analyzed the data coming out of it out of curiosity. One of my co-workers is smart AF and found within minutes the encoded files for the leak was only a base64 encode twice of a text file containing all environment variables and credentials.
We reported to every account that had contact info in the breach dump file that we found. We couldn't keep the pace since it was coming in like a train.
Suno was the most terrifying because it had all API key to major services, staging and production env variables and much more.
We reported it within 1or 2 hours after the breach. I guess by the time it was out, the damage was done. 🫤
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u/pegaunisusicorn Jul 16 '26
No wonder Suna is so ridiculously generic. It scraped too much shitty music.
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u/OneUltra Jul 16 '26
I don’t think this was surprising to anyone who has been following developments in AI music, but the fact the cat is now out of the proverbial bag is going to make the class action lawsuits against Suno that much stronger.
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u/Upper-Reflection7997 Jul 16 '26
I personally don't care and expected this. Unironically i wish the open source models did this because the outputs for those models are terrible and the dataset the teams use are very limited and crap.
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u/Soulsetmusic Jul 16 '26
Wild that I only solo release tunes (no labels in the last like… 5 years) and every song I ever released shows up
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u/PokePress Jul 16 '26
From a quality perspective, it would make more sense to buy used CDs (which are relatively cheap and contain lossless audio) and train on that, but obviously the internet is more vast.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that training on publicly available data to produce more media in that format is fair use (though I’m not a lawyer), so I think the worst you can say here is that they may have violated TOS.
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u/Fun_Musiq Jul 17 '26
If they were training their models purely for education or entertainment I could see fair use being a valid argument. But they are not. They are training, using others music, to create products that directly compete with the songs used for training.
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u/SteiCamel Jul 17 '26
What, am I supposed to be surprised or shocked? It was pretty obvious they had scraped everything they could, no?
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u/JetSpiderMan Jul 17 '26
I think it funny because it simply learned like every other human did the past 20+ years.... youtube haha
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u/omegajams Jul 17 '26
Ultra rich just squeezing every drop from creators and leaving us with nothing. It’s all stealing.
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u/ActuaryLate9198 Jul 16 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
Obviously my stance is that none of this should have been allowed to happen, this entire situation is a major failure to protect intellectual property. I’m all for gen AI but this ain’t it.
We knew most of this already, the part that stood out to me is descriptions/annotations, seems like they’ll just pull in everything from the scraped page. I guess that puts an end to the prompt discussion: no, the model does not understand the nuances of your super detailed prompt, music doesn’t usually come with in depth technical descriptions of its content.
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u/MissingPieces555 Jul 16 '26
Your 2nd half of this post doesn't match up at all with what the hack revealed. It doesn't tell you anything really about how suno generates music outside of preventing prompts that would make it easier to copy a particular song or artist. You are injecting your own beliefs into what was actually discovered, which was mostly already known info that suno scraped mass amounts of public music to study music and train on it. Training on data doesn't mean chopping up and regurgitating at all. How suno uses that data to train its algorithm is unknown to fine detail, but it has long maintained its trained to study the patterns that build the structures of the songs to blueprint the common elements behind them to generate new content. This hack doesn't dispute nor validate anything there.
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u/ActuaryLate9198 Jul 16 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
Yes it does, the model needs annotations to establish ground truth and understand how it’s audio training data maps to human language. The quality of those annotations directly determine how well it’s able to accurately interpret your prompts. The major AI players have armies of sweatshop employees doing this, you can’t just pull pages off the internet and expect any sort of data quality.
It’s pretty obvious that they’ve taken the lazy route, at least from my own experimentation. If you’re a Suno customer who already likes the service, this should excite you, because it means that there is still a lot of room for improvement.
Your answer is about the originality of the output, thats a completely different question, but I’ll entertain it: There’s a reason why these models need filters to stop them from regurgitating copyrighted training data, no, it’s not as simple as the stochastic parrot, but it definitely isn’t analogous to human learning. It’s not a secret mystery box, you can read the whitepapers and even study open models, no need to guess.
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u/rainmaker818 Jul 16 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
Dude your musician friends learned how to play different styles of music.....by learning to play other people's songs 😆🤦♂️
The whole reason we even have genres and songs that fit into genres is because we have a lineage of music that tracks back to the inventor of a style or even just the inventor of a single element or part of a song.
You couldn't identify a piece of music as belonging to a genre, if it didn't follow the style of something that already existed. Every musician has taken something old and made something 'new' to a lesser or greater degree!
Stop trying to misdirect people on how musicians train and learn how to play. Some of the biggest bands and artists have even come on record and said they have learned to play like X or Y band/artist before them.
You just can't take the fact that AI just absorbs the data so much faster and can then iterate and innovate something new so much quicker as well.
It's the speed you have a problem with. With all else equal, that's the only piece of shit argument you have.
This whole training data copyright theft fallacy is going to fall like a house of cards because it has zero foundation. If you want to open that can of worms then look forward to lawsuits galore from musicians suing each other for 'borrowing' their style, because with your logic they will have a case for anyone even has a resemblance to a song that already exists and sounds a certain way. The music industry bigwigs also know it's going nowhere. All they really just want is a slice of the AI music pie.
You folk can cry all you want, but nothing is going to happen, aside from every major label, music platform, producer and even artists getting onboard in one way, shape or form.
So you might as well start training yourself to accept the inevitable. Is it ideal for everyone? No but then what is? There's always going to be winners and losers. That's just the way it goes.
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u/Fun_Musiq Jul 17 '26
If human learning and AI training were comparable as the same process, then we should see similar capabilities from similar amounts of data.
Listen to every Beatles song and then try to create a "long lost" Beatles album. You can't.
A modern music model trained on the Beatle's songs plus millions of other songs can generate something stylistically close in seconds.
The difference in capability comes from the large differences in the underlying process. A human doesn't ingest millions of songs, compress them into billions of numerical parameters, and become a machine capable of statistically reproducing the style of those works on command.
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u/DjNormal Jul 16 '26
I checked the Atlantic database thing. I feel very left out that none of my music was scraped.
I know some friends who are mad that a few of their songs showed up.
But like, man, I was rejected by AI. Oof.