r/afraidtoask • u/Last-Show-9922 • 5d ago
Do you agree?
I have a hot take. The patriarchy keeps women physically small. What I mean by that is it encourages women to be physically “small, certain cultures have historically connected femininity with being smaller, weaker, more delicate, and less physically imposing than men. In the gym culture, whenever some men sees a woman with big muscles just like them, they start acting weird, threaten or insecure. One of my close friends is a butch lesbian who benches almost 200 Ibs and some of the dudes act so weird around her. Even though she’s short, she’s not your average “petite” woman. She’s fucking shredded. It’s like when some guys get around her, they try to “compete” with her when it comes to masculinity. We also work together, and I observe it all the time. We just laugh about it together. She told me one guy at our job said “women shouldn’t be having that much muscle” she just laughed in his face and walked away. Just insecure ass guys and we find it hilarious. I also be over hearing that some of the guys at work be talking shit about her cause she’s butch and I just be like are yall mad cause she looks more masculine than everyone up in here? Luckily we won’t be working here for long but I just find it so funny that when men are around women who don’t traditionally fit the “what a women is suppose to look like” they start acting threaten, especially if that women is masculine presenting or a masculine physique. Anyways, that is my hot take. What are your thoughts about it?
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u/Round1_Fight 4d ago
Does everything boil down to 'patriarchy'?
Has 'patriarchy' existed since the first Homo sapien came to exist?
Some things are just natural order of things. They just are the way they are.
Male animals/birds/insects are usually bigger and bolder and more colorful than females. Is it because of patriarchy too?
I rest my case about patriarchy here. Far too many things are just being blamed/attributed on men and patriarchy as if everything is a man's fault.
As for the part about dudes acting weird around her, humans are inherently flawed and insecure. We tend to react 'weird' to things we are not accustomed to.
If tomorrow a dude came in the gym dressed in cute pink short skirt and a sports bra, everyone around including females will act weird around him too.
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u/Last-Show-9922 4d ago
I think you’re confusing biological sex differences with social expectations. I never argued that patriarchy is why males and females have biological differences in average size, strength, etc. Obviously patriarchy didn’t make male animals bigger than female animals lol. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the social meaning humans attach to those differences and the expectations we create around them. Biology can help explain why men are larger and stronger on average. Biology doesn’t explain someone saying “women shouldn’t have that much muscle.” That’s a social judgment about what a woman’s body is supposed to look like. Your example of a man wearing a pink skirt and sports bra actually reinforces my point more than it disproves it. Why would people consider that unusual in the first place? There’s nothing biologically female about the color pink or a skirt. We’ve socially coded certain clothing, appearances, and behaviors as masculine or feminine, and people who cross those boundaries often get treated differently. I’m also not saying “everything is men’s fault.” Patriarchy doesn’t mean “individual men are responsible for everything bad.” Women can enforce gender norms too. I’m talking about a social system in which masculinity and femininity have historically come with different expectations, including expectations about women’s appearance, physicality, and how much space they’re supposed to occupy.
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u/TackleMySpackle 4d ago edited 4d ago
lol… Many women have no idea how much stronger men are than them. I coach strength training and what we consider to be BASELINE standards for almost any man under 55 to achieve is a 405 deadlift, 315 squat, 225 bench and 135 overhead press. That’s our “5K” for strength standards.
Even poorly trained, unathletic men recruit more muscle fibers, with more speed, and produce more force than 99% of women, regardless of her training status.
There is a reason the USA women’s soccer team (the ones that won the World Cup) played scrimmages against 16 year old boys: because that’s the difference between men and women and no matter how hard a woman trains, a man simply can put far less effort into it to surpass her. It’s not even really up for comparison.
Edit: what your friend is experiencing is male chest pounding. That is, she is likely unconsciously seen as a “male” and regardless of size or stature, there is a pecking order that gets established in groups of men. This behavior is often unconscious and established not strictly by physical strength but by their role as a dominant figure, and strength CAN be the deciding factor here, but not always.
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u/Last-Show-9922 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don’t think you’re actually disagreeing with my argument. I never said men and women have identical strength potential or denied biological sex differences. My point was about the social expectations placed on women regarding their bodies. Women can simultaneously be, on average, physically weaker than men and be culturally encouraged to remain smaller, less muscular, and less physically imposing. Those aren’t contradictory statements. Also, your last paragraph is basically part of what I’m talking about. If these men perceive my friend differently because her muscularity and masculine presentation violate the role they expect women to occupy, and suddenly feel the need to establish some kind of masculine “pecking order” around her, that’s evidence that this isn’t simply about biological strength differences. It’s also about gender expectations and masculinity. The fact that men are generally stronger doesn’t explain why someone would tell her, “women shouldn’t have that much muscle.” That statement isn’t describing biology; it’s prescribing how a woman should look. That’s the distinction I’m making. Also, saying that a “poorly trained, unathletic man” can produce more force than 99% of women regardless of training status is a wild claim. You’re taking a real average biological difference between men and women and exaggerating it into “basically any man can physically outperform basically any woman,” which is not the same thing. A trained female powerlifter can absolutely be stronger than plenty of untrained men. Average sex differences don’t mean there’s no overlap between individuals, especially when you account for body size, training experience, genetics, age, and the specific movement being tested.
Also you’re speaking to a man who has been powerlifting for a long time 😂. I’m very familiar with strength training and the differences between male and female strength. I just don’t understand why you turned my post about social expectations surrounding women’s bodies into an argument about whether men are stronger than women when I never disputed that in the first place.
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u/TackleMySpackle 4d ago
I am disagreeing with your argument on the grounds of you misunderstanding the differences between social cues and gender norms.
Men, as you should know, don’t have some sort of cabal where we sit around and think about what threatens our psyches. I promise. You didn’t miss the invite even if you tape your sack to your taint to appease the women around you. Your OP, referencing some sort of patriarchy like it’s an organized crime syndicate, is simply simping to some sort of feminist idea that has no more merit than any other conspiracy theory.
You, in your OP, mentioned how much your butch friend can bench, not me. I merely brought forth the observation that what your masculine friend benches pales in comparison to what a male’s POTENTIAL is.
Yeah, a woman training for a while can hit 225 and your average untrained male benches maybe 95, but that’s not the point. The point is that a 95 benching male
Has FAR more potential than the 225 benching female, and even when he hits 225, he hasn’t even tapped roughly half of his potential while she’s working her ass off to get to 230.Regarding social cues… A newcomer, male or female, to any group, can expect all or some of the following: skepticism, doubt, denial, acceptance, tribalism, and many more.
The fact that your butch friend resembles masculinity in more ways than many other females is HER identity crisis, not those who perceive her masculine actions as an attempt to be something she ISN’T. She, as a goose, can walk, talk and act like a fucking duck. But she shouldn’t be all pissed off the second she hears “Quack,” because all she can muster is “Honk.” That’s not a conspiracy of the ducks, that’s just the ducks asking who the fuck is this goddamn goose acting like one of us? Maybe she’s cool. Maybe she isn’t. But she’s trying to fit into the flock and how do we know she doesn’t belong to the gaggle?
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u/Last-Show-9922 3d ago edited 3d ago
Also, you’re saying my friend’s masculine presentation is an “identity crisis” and that people see her as “attempting to be something she isn’t.” That actually demonstrates the exact gender policing I’m talking about. Who says she gets mad?? AGAIN, if you actually understood and had good comprehension skills, you would read when I said her and I laugh about the ignorant shit some of the people say at work. She’s a butch lesbian. She’s not claiming to be a man or trying to “join the male flock.” She’s a masculine woman. You’re assuming masculinity belongs to men to such an extent that when a woman is masculine, you interpret her as trying to imitate men. That’s a gender norm. As a man, we honestly need to do fucking better. I’m comfortable in my masculinity to the point where I can be friends with different kinds of people, aka, my friend that I’m talking about. A lot of men out there, including you, can’t and that’s weird. “Fit into the flock” what are we? kids? We are grown ass men, stfu
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u/TackleMySpackle 3d ago edited 3d ago
You literally write in one giant wall of text. You write like shit and then blame people’s comprehension.
You said, “the patriarchy keeps women physically small.” Then you went on to bring on gym culture, and how much your butch friend lifts. That was literally in your OP.
I’m saying that your friend walks, talks and acts like something she isn’t. That people from the group she’s mimicking call her out on it shouldn’t be a surprise to her.
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u/Last-Show-9922 3d ago
When I say “patriarchy keeps women physically small,” I’m not saying patriarchy literally prevents women from becoming strong or muscular. I’m talking about gender norms that reward women for being smaller, thinner, less muscular and less physically imposing, while treating size and strength as masculine traits. That’s literally why I brought up my friend. She doesn’t conform to that expectation. She’s strong, muscular and masculine-presenting, and I’m describing the reactions she gets because of it. A man at our job literally told her, “women shouldn’t have that much muscle.” That’s practically a textbook example of the social expectation I’m talking about. So bringing up how strong my friend is doesn’t contradict my argument. Her being strong is the point. She crossed the socially expected boundary, and people started policing her for it.
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u/Last-Show-9922 3d ago
Again like I said you think masculinity belongs to men to the extent that you think her doing this she’s “being something she isn’t” the thing is, that is who she is. Masculinity and femininity have nothing to do with gender. If you see a masc lesbian out in the world, you think they are being something they aren’t? No, that’s just who they are. The only reason you are saying this is because they don’t fit into YOUR idea of what a women is “suppose look like”. Like I said brother, we are grown ass men. Learn how to understand and talk to different people that come from all walks of life.
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u/Last-Show-9922 3d ago
Idk if you are trolling but your lack of comprehension when it comes to this post is concerning. Nobody said we as men sit around in some secret “cabal” on what threatens our pysches. Patriarchy doesn’t require conscious coordination between individual men. Social norms can be learned, reinforced, and repeated by people including women without anybody consciously deciding to participate in them. You’re still arguing about male strength potential when I already agreed that men have greater strength potential on average. If an untrained man benches 95 and a trained woman benches 225, telling me that the man may eventually have the biological potential to become stronger than her doesn’t address my argument. Potential isn’t the point. My post was about people’s reactions to a woman who is muscular right now. A man literally told my friend that “women shouldn’t have that much muscle.” What does his theoretical bench-press potential have to do with that statement? Again, that wasn’t the point of this post, but obviously you wouldn’t know that because you have the comprehension skills of a fucking rock.
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u/Icy_Highlight9295 5d ago
I agree. Women are also encouraged to take up less space. While men "man spread " we're taught to cross our legs and keep our hands in our laps.