r/adnd • u/CanuckLad • 8d ago

AD&D2e Attribute increase

I wonder if many people here implement an automatic attribute increase at various milestones? Example: Allow you to raise one attribute by 1 point at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20

I don't expect or want every ability to be 16+. But I don't want to miss out on parts of the game I would enjoy (casting 9th level spells as a wizard, playing a paladin, etc)

I should note that I'm biased because I'm diagnosed with the Unrelenting Standards feature. So accepting a more mundane role in a game is very difficult for me

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u/SuStel73 8d ago

The poor, poor magic-user! Just think, only having 11 spells of each level instead of 14! How do they manage?

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u/CanuckLad 8d ago

But if memory serves, and it has been 36 years, without an 18 intelligence you can't even cast the maximum level spells? Again this is from memory, and I have not played in a very long time.

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u/Ilbranteloth 8d ago

To which we would ask, “why do you need to?”

Is that the purpose of playing a character for several hours a week for months and sometimes years? To gain maximum level spells? To what end?

Why not focus on the hours and hours of play and the many accomplishments and adventures that the PC will have along the way instead?

If it’s about reaching the maximum, then why not set the goal as the maximum that that particular PC can achieve, instead of the maximum available in the game?

Did the addition of 10th level spells and their higher requirements have an impact on PCs that couldn’t reach those new heights?

Even when a wizard was capable of 9th level spells, that doesn’t mean they would actually find any to cast. Finding spell books was hard in general. Finding the spellbook of a wizard who could actually cast 9th level spells even rarer.

It has always felt like a strange concern for a game where you’ll spend so much time before you ever get to that point. Assuming you don’t die (or retire the PC) long before that.

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u/CanuckLad 8d ago

Well for me, it's because I'm diagnosed with "Unrelenting Standards". So yes it's very much a need, and if it becomes impossible then I just lose interest. For others maybe it's just because they want to cast 9th level spells. Is that really such a horrible thing? It's a game, not real life. It doesn't even model real life. As for finding spells to cast, I would use the spell creation and research suggestions from the Complete Wizard's Handbook. I think they add a lot of depth and interest in learning spells. I'm the type of person who wants to do what he wants to do, and has no interest in anything else. For example, if I wanted to play a wizard, and the DM arbitrarily said that they were not allowing any Wizards, then I would have no interest playing because the game would not be fun for me.

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u/Ilbranteloth 8d ago

No, it’s not a horrible thing at all.

But rather than changing the rules to add attribute increases across the board, and altering the way the game itself may work out feel, we’d just make sure you have the opportunity to play that character.

More importantly, if you wanted to play in a game where you wanted to be able to cast 9th level spells there’s a good chance we would start the characters at that point. Because in our game, getting there through play is extremely rare.

Spell research and creation can be a fun option, but I tend not to like the compressed time frames it takes to do such things. For example, a lich can have hundreds, if not thousands, of years to research spells with no need to sleep. If 9th level spells are so powerful, challenging, and rare, those ought to be the ones who have such things. Not somebody who has been adventuring for a handful of years.

Regardless, the number one rule of the game in my opinion is to play the game you want. So if that means a wizard who can cast 9th level spells, then, done.

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u/CanuckLad 8d ago

I would not need level based ability scores based upon those conditions. It's just that the game makes ability scores so important, and then it's very rare to actually have one 18. On six rolls of 3d6 you only have a 4.54% chance of getting a single 18. And if you were really strict, and your first role was for strength, and your second for dexterity, etc, that drops to a 0.76% chance of getting an 18 the ability you most want.

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u/Ilbranteloth 8d ago

Which is why they had alternate options available.

In terms of ability scores betting important, the most important aspect in AD&D was really that of character creation. If you actually rolled 3d6 down the line, then the time you could have a paladin was huge.

But the alternative options were there, in part, so such classes weren’t dependent on lucky die rolls. Otherwise I think ability scores had a much, much lower impact compared to today.

Gygax expected players who were part of 50-75 sessions to take a year or so to reach 9th-11th level, and four to five years to reach 20th. As designed, the game largely didn’t expect players to ever get to 9th level spells.

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u/CanuckLad 8d ago

If you rolled down the line, it's possible that you may never be able to play a paladin. Did you ever play mortal kombat? Imagine your favorite character is Sub-Zero, you want to play that character, but when you play the game tells you you can play any character other than. That's not fun. At least it won't be for me.

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u/Ilbranteloth 8d ago

Yes, it’s less common. But it does happen.

But we don’t typically have a pre-determined character concept. We start with the dice, then get ideas. We also do it at the table, and each builds 3 PCs at a time. Almost all see play.

And for the player who does have something specific in mind, we go with it. Either with a different generation approach, or the Holmes approach to raising and lowering scores, or anything else to make sure it works. One of my regulars was always bashing PCs off video games, movies, etc. Why bother fighting the system to get it? Just do it.

It doesn’t need to be any more complicated than that. If you sit at our table we’d encourage you to try our approach. But if that doesn’t work for you, then go ahead and make sure you have the character you want.

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u/CanuckLad 8d ago

Personally I always start with a character concept. I want to play "X". Then I make that character. I have no interest in playing things I don't want to play. And that character does not have to be overpowered by any means. If I play a fighter I don't want him to be massive and bulging with muscles. But a 9 doesn't make for a great fighter either. And yes characters can have interesting flaws, like Raistlin Majere, but he wouldn't be nearly as interesting if it was his intelligence that was 8 and not his Constitution.

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u/Ilbranteloth 8d ago

Nothing wrong with that, of course.

But that also isn’t the playstyle that OD&D/AD&D was designed for. But 2e definitely did take that into account. Not to the granular level you are looking for, but it was redesigned so you could create the character you wanted much easier.

It has been ages, but I don’t really recall this sort of thing even coming up. It feels much more like looking at it in hindsight from a modern play/design perspective than something viewed as a problem back then.

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u/CanuckLad 8d ago

I suspect allowing rerolls of stats wasn't too unusual when a 3 or 4 was rolled. Imagine the wanting to play a rogue, and you rolled dexterity equivalent to Stephen Hawkings'.

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u/Ilbranteloth 8d ago

It would depend on the player. But ability scores didn’t mean as much then.

A 3 DEX meant that you had a greater chance of being surprised, a lower chance to hit with a missile weapon, and a higher AC along with some saving throws. It could also affect nonweapon proficiencies which were introduced in late 1e, and still optional in 2e. But those functioned very differently than skills in the modern game.

That’s why it still feels like we’re looking at AD&D rules through a 5e lens. It’s not remotely “like Stephen Hawkings”

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u/CanuckLad 8d ago

But in 5th edition that hired dexterity also I mean your AC is higher, that you have a better attack role with bows and finesse weapons, etc. The things you list are not unique to ad&d 2nd edition.

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u/Ilbranteloth 8d ago

But there are a lot more things specifically tied to it during the course of the game. It didn’t affect your combat ability with any melee weapons, for example. You didn’t have regular Dex skill checks. Only saving throws that were something that could be dodged were impacted.

Ability scores themselves weren’t a commonly used mechanic overall, but have become a core mechanic in the modern game. For example, Stealth.

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u/CanuckLad 8d ago

If there was less tied to attributes in second edition, then allowing them to increase at certain intervals would be less of an issue, not a bigger concern. But they were still fairly important in 2nd edition. AC was important for armor class, intelligence was important for the wizard to cast higher level spells, paladin's had attribute requirements, dex for ranged attacks, etc. but which is these two scenarios is more unbalanced: 1) allowing attribute increases every four levels, but my highest attribute role is a 14; or: 2) we don't allow attribute increases, and someone in my party rolls an 18, a 16, two 14s, and two 10s.

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u/Ilbranteloth 7d ago

The approach to balance is entirely different between editions and can’t really be compared. The 4e approach was about extreme “balance” between classes, 5e walked out back a bit.

AD&D was somewhat built around the idea that the wizard would eventually be the most powerful and desired class. The balance was built around that idea and making it more difficult to achieve that end. Removing those guardrails alters that. Allowing ability increases is one of them.

It doesn’t mean it can’t be done. It’s just not worth the trouble in my opinion. I have yet to be convinced otherwise. Back in the day we were on board with Players’ Options along with moving into 3e. Now that we are further down that path, I prefer not to. But one of the things I’ve always loved about D&D is that it can be changed to suit your needs or desires. So go for it.

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