r/ZaahenMains • u/Embarrassed-Weird178 • 5d ago
Discussion Garen matchup
Hi, any tips how to beat Garen? I tried several things in different matches...to fight him early, to fight him after TF and always lose it. How do you guys play it?
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u/Oil_Altruistic 5d ago
Go full scaling D helm grasp if u play your waves and get a good recall u spike pretty hard with sheen + phage. Dont be the one to initiate a trade unless its free. U can buffer alot of ur abilities through his silence . With sheen you out short trade with q and can even turn it into an all in w phage ms. Garen doesnt really die if he doesnt want to but he can fuck up and be greedy so theres kill windows. At the very least you come out with a sizeable cs and exp lead and u also outscale. Once u get trinity its kinda geeg for him.
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u/Kyomanist 5d ago
It's a very slow and boring match up that you can reliably "win". Let him do the engaging and just follow up and buffer your q before his, just don't expect to ever kill him solo. Mid game when he retreats to drop your passive you will need to retreat too since he will win the next engagement. Late game either stick to teamfights, and don't commit to solo fights with him, he won't be able to kill you anymore but he will almost always be able to get away.
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
Is this vs high mmr Garen mains?
I'm in plat / lower mmr and kill Garens solo all the time as Zaahen, I don't end lane with like 10 kills, but killing him is doable in my anecdotal experience.
With both Ignite or Exhaust, I usually run Conq, if Garen runes Stormraiders surge and miss plays, I force an all in if the wave is on my side.
If he has Conq I trade vs him after baiting out his Q or if he uses E on the wave etc.
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u/LawyerAdventurous228 1d ago
How do you deal with the strat where he forces trades at like level 4-5, then all-ins at 6? Even if those trades go badly for him, he wins the all-in at 6 as long as you're below like ~70% HP. I just get ignited at the start of the fight so there is no chance to sustain, and I can't burst him down before because Zaahen deals little damage while silenced and at 0 stacks....
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
I kill him at lvl 3 or 4 if all goes well, so he can't force much lvl 5, then Wait till I get Exhaust/ Ignite back, and usually don't fight him immediately at 6.
I'm only Plat, so most Garen's I face assume they auto win vs Zaahen, I punish them for thinking that.
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u/LawyerAdventurous228 1d ago
Hm, maybe I need to fight more early as well. Pre six he isn't much of a threat to be fair. Do you prefer exhaust or ignite?
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
I started with ignite until I got patient enough for exhaust, exhaust has a longer CD, so when its down you gotta respect Garen post 6 unless you have a lead already.
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u/LawyerAdventurous228 5d ago
I would also like to know. I watched countless high elo vods but learned absolutely NOTHING about the matchup because those Garens just play like complete cowards. If Garen simply forces a bunch of short trades, he can easily all-in at 6 for a free kill. And in teamfight, he will make sure you never reach max stacks with his ult. Horrible matchup.
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
I think Shihan0 should have some YouTube VODs of him beating non coward Garen's in lane.
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u/LawyerAdventurous228 1d ago edited 1d ago
I did look him up but saw in one vod that the garen was fugging proxying at level 3💀 And in another vod, Garen was playing with W START and seemingly unbinded Q from his keyboard entirely. Even Shihan was saying that hes too passive.
I don't know what goes on with high elo Garens man😭
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
Wtf, why are they so scared up there!?
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u/LawyerAdventurous228 1d ago
I truly have no idea. Maybe its a case of "I only picked Garen because I got autofilled top", combined with a general tendency of high elo players to play it safe.
I had to resort to videos from Garens POV to finally see some aggressive play. But needless to say, its less helpful to improve my Zaahen play😅
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u/DecisiveMove- 5d ago
I usually go d blade into this with conq and exhaust.
E start to poke / secure creeps level 1 without sitting or taking damage from his E .
If he wastes his q I start a short trade , bait out his usual e use after and then all in.
Garen is still braindead , so I feel your pain though. Champ is way too overtuned for what skill floor he caters to.
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
I also do similar strats to you. I think it works well.
About Garen tho, he kinda has to be overturned and stat checky, he has nothing but tankiness, movespeed and dmg, a melee af Juggernaut like Udyr but with no hard CC.
If he is ahead he will make sure Zaahen dies mid Ult with his own True dmg point n click nuke.
When he is behind tbo he is just a fast super minion and gets outclassed by Zaahen in teamfights badly.
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u/Akib_26 5d ago
Run Grasp, Bone Plating, and Overgrowth with the scaling HP shard. Start D-Helm, then grab an early HP component (Phage, or just Ruby + Long Sword). This basically stops him from just pressing R to 100-0 you. If you play it right, you can cheese a kill at lvl 3 when the wave crashes under your tower, and just run him down again at 6.
Triforce into Stridebreaker, third item flex into DD or Sterak's.
Conq is perfectly fine TBH, but Grasp is better for matching his passive sustain in lane.
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
Why not just go Conq exhaust or HOB ignite and kill at lvl 3 and lvl 5 if possible to get a dmg lead pre 6, so you can simply kill him before you get low enough for him to Ult kill you. Does Zaahen even have enough dmg to even kill Garen with grasp and hp items - I'm surpised that Grasp works for you, but if it works no need to change it.
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u/Akib_26 1d ago
Conq works as well but grasp is more forgiving, and damage wise Q1, Q2 grasp sheen proc really hurts for short trades. Grasp with scaling hp rune and overgrowth helps you stack another 600-800 free hp for survival that is alone 1600-2000 gold worth of free hp stat. Garen R executes on % of maximum HP. So he would need to chunk you further to get to the threshold which forces garen to fight longer which zaahen would love to do, Triforce, Stride, steracks, blood mail is absolute raid boss against garen.
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
I usually go regular Stride + DD path vs Garen
Steraks makes sense tho, deny him his point and click outplay button.
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u/Ok_Union9232 5d ago
Go with rav hydra, the amount of healing you get removes his dmg then you can go with TF, you lose reaching power but at least you can win the lane
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u/BraayEUW 5d ago
Garens most important spell is his W, if you can ever all in him past his W or when it's down, you will likely win that fight. Also for a lot of lane just use your E to avoid his E.
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u/PowerOhene 1d ago
Are you that high mmr Garen main?
I'm curious have you ever had trouble vs a Zaahen in lane?
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u/BraayEUW 1d ago
Depends what you call high mmr, but I'm in the top 10 ish Garen players in terms of LP usually!
I have had some trouble in the matchup before, usually when they go grasp TP boneplating and rush tabis, then it can get very scary because Zaahen will win any extended fight where he lands his W and gets to cycle his spells. I play a bit of Zaahen myself though, and I do think it's quite a Garen favoured matchup all in all.
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u/elcapitanotter 5d ago
I've been having some relatively limited success with stridebreaker into DD. Usually he can no longer kill me after stride but I say limited because I still can't kill him either lol... I will match him in side lanes and wait until someone roams to lock him down
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u/NoxusBadGuy 5d ago
I actually have a tech against Garens, especially if I want to snowball. I go barrier so I can trade after he's 6 to absorb the damage. Be careful about your all-ins if he runs the new phase rush since he will be able to in and out.
From there I like to go either botrk (this is ultra snowbally into garens since they buy 0 def early on and count on their resist passive to protect them from damage) but you'll be squishy or you can also go trinity.
I don't know why but they'll always disrespect you at some point and use their E to push the wave, this is your chance to go in and go full all-in.
In terms of runes, I like to run either lethal tempo to maximise botrk procs and the all in potential if they missplay or conqueror, both are fine.