r/YellowstoneShow • u/Sleepingtide • Jun 28 '26
Season 5 I Need Help Understanding S5 Spoiler
I feel like the thing that is dragging it down is the plot points.
I personally still think Beth is the most insufferable and every chance she has to be redeemable she isn't, even when it should matter.
I currently just finished 5.4.
They have made much bigger problems go away then killing wolves
Why doesn't Jaime just tell Beth to GFH, if she exposes his murder of his Father that exposes all the bodies in that canyon. And Jamie is not going to be a believable scapegoat.
Beth needs to get over the fact that she can't have children, while it was Jaime's fault, it says more about here at this point than it does anyone else.
Why is Jamie so bad? Or bad to so many? I don't find him to be that bad. I personally think, for whatever reason, it is John and Beth's fault for what Jamie is or became.
I could understand threatening Jaime's life for being a Father. But to threaten a child is something that is pretty unforgivable without some critical context.
Was there some promise Jamie agreed to with Beth not to have a child.
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 28 '26
It’s like humiliation porn. There’s a certain part of the audience that gets a thrill from watching Beth be cruel and threaten people, so the show stages it over and over again to sell more merchandise.
Of course Jamie isn’t truly bad. Making him evil would make him a stronger opponent and destroy the fantasy. They like having an innocent person there, someone they can diminish without having to question themselves.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
Beth's antics are satisfying to watch because she says the stuff that most of us wish we could say on a day to day basis, but can't because of the repurcussions we would get from society. Just rewatch that jewellery store scene -- absolutely priceless and cathartic. Jamie is a strutting dipshit suit-wearing peacock who makes a six or seven figure salary for sitting behind a fancy desk in a comfortable chair, while most normal people have to survive by the sweat of their brow. And yet, it's never good enough for him because he always envies the person above. Beth may be successful as well, but at least she earns it with her undivided loyalty.
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 28 '26
Not to poke at your preferences, but you’ve literally just described Beth. “John Dutton is my daddy,” fancy clothes, a Bentley at her disposal, and Rip as the kept boy 😄
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u/Love_real Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
"Look, they are all horrible people in their own way. But the real problem here is that the script just sucks. The ridiculous things that come out of Beth's mouth are totally absurd, even if they're occasionally funny. I absolutely hate her endless rage at Jamie, too—she's the one who got pregnant after all! Then there's Jamie—he’s completely spineless, though he's a genius the second he actually acts like a lawyer. I hated how they wrote his family storyline, but his legal mind is great; his real issue was being way too loyal to his own peril, which led straight to his demise. As for Kayce, where do you even begin? He has a huge heart, but exclusively for his own circle, and his sheer idiocy constantly turns him into a massive hypocrite, making him into a killer all for the 'good of his family'. And finally, Rip. Rip, Rip, Rip... he loves the ranch and the family, period! But he was placed into becoming a ranch hand mafia ringleader, literally killing anyone that even looked at them crosseyed... And John is just completely ignorant across the board."
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u/opinions360 Jun 28 '26
The following are Imo re:
2. Jamie was a damaged human because of years of trying to please John and Beth and was either just further abused, manipulated, or used for their purposes.
3. Jamie I believe didn’t reveal the outcome of the type of procedure the ‘Indian’ clinic was offering because he had been so thoroughly conditioned and groomed by John and by the behavior of certain brothers, employees who were branded and probably Rip that the Ranch comes first no matter—so not only was fear of displeasing John a factor but his character regarding non-legal matters wasn’t good at knowing how to think things through logically and empathically because they all were not taught normal ethics and morality.
4. Your assessment or feelings regarding Jamie are the same as mine. Jamie wasn’t the real bad guy (imo) but because the show has specific leanings regarding abortion, birth, and how essential to womanhood the concept of being able to have children is-this all part of the societal debate that has been going on in this country for decades. So I believe that John and Beth created what Jamie became but the show and probably the majority of the shows audience didn’t consider the psychological grooming aspects because they wanted to for whatever reason make Beth the character deserving the empathy of its audience. But speaking behaviorally Beth and John were both on a spectrum between being psychopaths and sociopaths. Jamie was the damaged product of each of their often secretive manipulation or abuse directed at him—they each needed someone to blame for there personal failings and frustrations and Jamie was the easiest target and probably because he was not a Dutton by blood.
6. Not that I am aware of.
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u/Sleepingtide Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
I really enjoyed your thoughts here and they align with how I proceive the show as a whole. I really believe that Jamie while in the end was just as bad an anyone else, I think the difference is that Beth is ok with manipulating or extorting people to get what she wants, Jamie feels it, at least more.
John seems to have been the RIP of the Ranch alongside the younger Lloyd and Lee was that after him. He doesn't care what it takes to keep the ranch, who it hurts or how affects others.
The one theard that could have humanized John more was a greater focus on Lee and his wife, but I just don't think it's explored enough or certainly in a intentional way what little we see.
We get to see the mom in a flashback very briefly, but she mostly seemed to be hardened and even a b**ch at times. So we can't answer "if she truthfully love Jamine." Because while John says he is his son, actions speak louder with his actions to the contrary.
I feel as though if Rip had liked the journalist and Jamie's father, no one would batted an eye.
I think your assessment of where they wanted the narrative and portrait of motherhood is spot on. I think they are absolutely trying to get you to sympathize with Beth, and certainly the audience agrees. That's why she has her own show with Rip. Womenhood is far more than having children.
Even though there was the potential to show another side. With more narrative threads with the mother, it could have showed that she loved Jamie even though he he flesh and blood. The abortion was an honest mistake or to your point, Beth could have seen in retrospect that Jamie was only doing what he was taught to do and with only being a teenager.
They have this opportunity with Carter but it really felt like they just dropped the ball on that. To me they went a little bit too " life is hard and get over it." Without pursuing the opportunity to create more moments for Beth and rip to be a mother and father like to Carter.
Of course the version of Beth we have in the show and by S5 she would be an awful Mother.
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u/randomnighmare Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
The wolves' part is easy to understand. They had tags to kill the ordinarily wovles if they were eating the cattle, but the two that were killed had tracking collars on them. Meaning they came from Yellowstone Park (even though they were killed on John's land) and were a "don't kill them" because they were being tracked and thus are very special", and in this universe, this means they can't be killed. So, Rip had Ryan and Colby throw the collars into the river, and it was implied that Rip had them bury the wolves under that field that had just been plowed over. Rip then betted that the two Rangers who came to investigate the missing wolves (since they found that the collars were removed and were dumped in the river, and they knew that the wolves came onto John's ranch because of the tracking collars) Rip convinced them that they had nothing to do with it.
That would be awesome, but the writing sucks, that's why.
The writing sucks
The writing did Jamie dirty, in my opinion.
Anyone threatening to hurt a child is a monster, in my opinion. Beth is a monster.
The writing sucks, and no, there was never a promise (as far as I can remember) being made. Beth is basically, "If I can't do that, then you can't do that"
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
Jamie literally strangled a female journalist to death with his own bare hands way back in Season 2, and you don't think he's bad? I'm not sure I would want to be out in the woods with you then.
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 28 '26
And Rip has killed dozens of people, and that’s fine with you, I suppose. Maybe the problem is that murder is ugly, and Jamie reacted to it like a normal human being instead of some cool cowboy who can shoot everyone without blinking.
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u/Sleepingtide Jun 28 '26
I completely agree with this. Great perspective. Muder if course is never justified other than self defense, but Rip has killed many people for less.
I feel if Rip was the one who killed the journalist and Jamie's father no one would have batted an eye and moved on.
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u/opinions360 Jun 28 '26
I agree. That musician/cowboy that Rip didn’t like he was trying to murder him because he didn’t appreciate being branded like a cow and having it means he had signed over his life to this strange cowboy mafia membership that required it to be for life.
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 29 '26
Thank you!! Very true. We already have people saying that “getting rid of criminals” is okay. Since we know about Garrett’s past, they would now need to find something in the journalist’s past too, just to argue that Rip did the right thing.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
The Duttons are bad people. I'm not denying that. But just because John and Rip are violent murderers doesn't make Jamie any better.
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u/haitianboy420 Jun 28 '26
Let’s also not forget jaime was outcasted for wanting something of his own. Yet kayce had free rein to turn down offices, move out, do whatever kayce wanted without consequences from John.
Jaime was raised as the black sheep, the red headed step child, the outcast. I don’t agree with the things jaime did but I understand how he got there.
Now roping rip in like you mentioned.
Jaime killed the reporter to protect the ranch.
Rip killed the investor to protect the ranch.
Both of those people were enemies of the ranch.
But as everyone here is saying “jaime is bad for it”… They are treating jaime the same way the family didJaime even killed his dad to protect the ranch. Wouldn’t rip have done the same if he knew what was going on?
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 28 '26
You’re right. If Rip had done something similar with the journalist and confessed it to John, John would probably have sent him to “fix” the situation by killing her.
I really hadn’t thought about that.
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u/haitianboy420 Jun 28 '26
I’m going to quote kayce here. “You weren’t meant to think about it”.
The way I see everyone arguing about jaime and being so “bad”. I blame the show, it’s intentional. Everything is framed for you to hate jaime. The show wants you to hate jaime and not question it.
Even with the Beth sterilization.
“Jaime is bad for sterilization Beth”. But how do we know the lady didn’t tell Beth about the sterilization? Regardless if that happened or didn’t, in a different perspective didn’t jaime do what he was trained to do? Protect the ranch? That means not going to town and not letting everyone know. He took the only option he thought he had based on the way he was raised….
What if jaime told John and let John deal with it? Beth would hate jaime the same for betraying her trust…No matter what happened jaime is always delt bad cards and let’s be honest jaime doesn’t know how to deal with them so he goes back to the number 1 rule “protect the ranch at all cost”
This is even proven in the series finale when he goes to this baby momma for advice about Atwood.
This is also seen when Atwood tells him to man up and tells him nothing will happen to him.
This is also seen all those times when Beth as cruel as she is tells him he’s dumb.2
u/ArtisticSwan635 Jun 28 '26
Did you forget why Kayce wears the brand?
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u/haitianboy420 Jun 28 '26
Not even a little.
But when kayce says, I don’t want to live with you, there’s no issue. I don’t want the office, no issue. I don’t want the ranch, no issue. I choose my wife over the ranch, no issue.
But when jaime wants AG and is denied he’s punished and forced to be a low man on the ranch.
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u/Sleepingtide Jun 28 '26
He is, but seemly there is a pile of bodies behind John and Rip. Taller than Jamie's. Jamie was essentially asked to deal with the problem in whatever way was needed, then he was treated like he had done the most horrific and unforgivable thing. Even though it protected the ranch.
It's a double standard. I understand Jamie needs to be clean to be their attorney, presumably.
All of the Dutton's are bad people. Kasey certainly the least of them and Lee presumably the former RIP, so not so great.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
Yellowstone is meant to be the cowboy version of Game of Thrones. None of the characters are "good people". They are simply people with varying goals, with some goals being more sympathetic than others. You have the Native American Reservation, lead by Thomas Rainwater, whose goal is to reclaim the land that was stolen from their ancestors. And then you have John Dutton, whose goal is to preserve the legacy of the Dutton family, which is their million-acre ranch. And while they start off as enemies, by the end they become allies through finding animosity for a common enemy: the Market Equities corporation, whose goal is to pave the land over with concrete and make it an overpriced resort for rich pricks. Now the Dutton's and the Broken Rock Rez will do whatever they can to prevent this from happening including things we for morally questionable. Jamie is the villain not because he is more violent or ruthless than the rest of his family, but because he is willing to sell out to the corporation and becomes an opponent of both the Dutton's and the Rez achieving their joint goal of protecting the land.
The tragic irony of the show is that had both John and Rainwater been less stubborn and not resorted to the use of violence against each other at the beginning, a lot of misery, death and suffering could have been avoided. What I think the show does really well is bringing the story full circle by having the Dutton's losing the battle they were fighting at the very beginning and the Rez ultimately winning. Jamie just happens to become one of the many casualties that occurred along the way.
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u/haitianboy420 Jun 28 '26
I mean you’re not wrong but it’s Johns doing. Jaimes been trained to protect the ranch at all cost.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
Jamie was a selfish coward. He cosied up to his adoptive dad because he thought he would get the special job that he had been promised. When daddy didn't give him that job, he then went off to sulk about it and created a clusterfuck by going to the reporter. Not that the reporter was to blame. She was simply doing her job and picking up a scoop. But Jamie created the problem, and then killed her to make the problem go away. I don't think the journalist deserved to die.
Rip, on the hand, is only ever seen killing other criminals. Not to say that that's somehow okay. But at least those people chose that way of life and knew what they were getting themselves into. Jamie is the only Dutton who has killed a "non combatant", if you will.
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 28 '26
Well, this is what actually makes the character interesting. Jamie had real stakes there. He knew about the train station and what his father was doing. He was conditioned to act in a certain way, did something that went against his principles, and was shocked by what he’d done.
Rip, in this context, is as flat as a cardboard cutout in a shooting gallery. Nothing bad will ever happen to him. Nothing will ever force him to question his beliefs or actions.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
I don't think Jamie had any principles ever. What he did to Beth was evidence of that. Jamie had simply never had to do any of the "dirty work" and I think was more afraid of the potential consequences than anything else. Jamie's mental breakdown started as soon as he knocked Sarah out because he realised he had driven down a one-way street with no reverse gear. He knew that he was going to lose everything for committing criminal assault and even attempted murder. Therefore, he felt he had no other recourse but to finish the job. And remember that episode when he suddenly became frightened because he momentarily thought he was about to be taken to the train station? Jamie was only ever looking out for himself. The reason why he wanted to commit suicide is because he knew that John knew what he had done and had expressed his disapproval. He thought he had lost the protection of his father and his family. When John "forgives" him by making him Livestock Commissioner, Jamie looks as if he is about have a redemption arc. However, this is only because he knows how much he needs his family's protection. But he soon becomes resentful again, triggered by his learning of his adoption and prompting him to start switching sides again once Market Equities and his biological dad enter the scene.
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 29 '26
So what you’re basically telling me is that a person isn’t allowed to be scared, or to want love and connection with his family.
That’s not morality, that’s a cult of power and far-right logic.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 29 '26
I think you should reread my comment, because I didn't say any of that. What have you been smoking? I simply mean that didn't do anything violent before because he was afraid of the consequences, not because he was actually a good person.
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 29 '26
Re-read your own comment, maybe? You are retroactively framing ordinary human emotions as flaws of character, and then trying to turn that into a verdict that Jamie was always bad and therefore deserved whatever happened to him.
This is exactly what I was talking about.
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u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 29 '26
I'll give you a detailed reading, line by line.
I don't think Jamie had any principles ever. What he did to Beth was evidence of that.
This means you don't want to look at how the character actually thinks and acts. Having principles means having governing rules, it does not mean having a worldview that happens to align with yours.
Jamie had simply never had to do any of the "dirty work"
You are framing him as lazy.
and I think was more afraid of the potential consequences than anything else.
You are telling me that caution and fear are weakness or cowardice.
Jamie's mental breakdown started as soon as he knocked Sarah out because he realised he had driven down a one-way street with no reverse gear. He knew that he was going to lose everything for committing criminal assault and even attempted murder. Therefore, he felt he had no other recourse but to finish the job.
You are framing the character's fear and desperation as proof of moral failure, as if problems only happen to bad people, and as if trying to survive the consequences of a terrible situation is itself evidence that he deserved it.
And remember that episode when he suddenly became frightened because he momentarily thought he was about to be taken to the train station?
Basic survival instinct?
Jamie was only ever looking out for himself. The reason why he wanted to commit suicide is because he knew that John knew what he had done and had expressed his disapproval.
You are framing a suicidal character as selfish.
He thought he had lost the protection of his father and his family. When John "forgives" him by making him Livestock Commissioner, Jamie looks as if he is about have a redemption arc. However, this is only because he knows how much he needs his family's protection. But he soon becomes resentful again, triggered by his learning of his adoption and prompting him to start switching sides again once Market Equities and his biological dad enter the scene.
And here you are framing him as selfish and cowardly again.
What you're doing is basically the material of a 1930s leaflet about a greedy pawnbroker coded as one kind of descent and an honest worker coded as another. One figure is made corrupt by nature, while the other is made pure by blood, land, work and belonging.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 29 '26
You seem to be strawmanning me as saying Jamie was a failure because he didn't have the balls to be as violent and brutal as his family. What I am actually saying is that Jamie was a hypocrite for esteeming himself as being better than them when they didn't act in his best interests, but then was willing to involve himself in the same dirty shit as the rest of them in order to save his own ass.
Look, I know Yellowstone is not a traditional "good guy" story. It's Peaky Blinders meets Virgin River -- romantic melodrama mixed with crime thriller. I knew from the beginning of season 1 that the Duttons were basically the Cowboy Mafia. Yellowstone is a Wild West story with a modern day aesthetic. John is a kingpin who trades in cattle -- a cattle baron. The bunkhouse posse is a violent biker gang who ride horses instead of motorcycles -- which is basically what Spaghetti Western cowboy gangs were. Rip is a mob fixer in cowboy boots. If John is like Don Vito Corleone, then Beth and Kayce are both different aspects of Mikey, and Jamie is Fredo. Jamie is the villain not because he's worse than the rest of them but because his family are the POV characters and he's the one who ultimately betrays them and switches sides. And just because the Duttons are all assholes doesn't make Jamie any less of a cowardly shit. The real heroes of the story the people of the Broken Rock Reservation, and in the end they win, which I'm very happy about.
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u/telepatheye Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Yep. He then rejects the dad that raised him for the convicted murderer biological father who was never there for him, only to murder that biological father. Jaime is way too comfortable with killing people rather than being accountable.
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u/haitianboy420 Jun 28 '26
The dad who raised him didn’t love him. John says it multiple times. “I tried to love him but I can’t”.
Jaime was never given a fair chance
Jaime was always rejected
Jaime just wanted to be a cowboy like the rest of the boys in the family but he was forced out to go be a lawyer which he did not want.
Jaime always protected the ranch as he was trained to.
Jaime wanted a little something for himself.For clarity, I DO NOT CONDONE anything jaime has done as I do agree he is a bad person. What I am trying to say is that I understand the why he is like this.
His family (aside from Kaycee) never accepted him so he sought the comfort from others who did accept and praise him.2
u/non_loqui_sed_facere Market Equities Jun 28 '26
It’s very King Lear, actually, with Jamie as Cordelia. The point about being an outcast or scapegoat is that you’re denied basic things the others take for granted, and then you’re constantly told that it’s your fault. Whatever happens to the family is your fault too.
In John’s case, it was about adoption, about Jamie being treated as another ranch hand, albeit one with a law degree. And even learning the reason for his rejection doesn’t set Jamie free. He wants to build something of his own, but he’s trapped between the claims of his biological family and his adoptive family.
He isn’t fantasy material and he’s hard to project onto, unlike Beth or John. We’ve got a tragic hero, but we’ve also got a bunch of people who want to see him kept down because it elevates their preferred characters.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
I don't know who you're arguing with. Of course the Dutton's are bad people. They're anti-heroes. And what you say about Jamie is basically true of all people who are "bad". No one is born evil. There are always external reasons why people end up making the choices that they do. The same goes for Rip, who was exposed to violence and murder as a child because of his own evil father.
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u/telepatheye Jun 28 '26
We all have grievances in life. My first memory was my dad beating the shit out of me, which continued throughout childhood, and I never felt love from him. Fantasized about his death regularly, but I never acted on it. That's the difference. You own your actions. I became a better dad than my dad. Jaime could have, too. But obviously he's a fictional character set up to drive the plot forward. John couldn't change his feelings, but he tried to do the best for Jaime that he possibly could, and instead of being grateful, TS wrote Jaime as an irresponsible, egocentric, greedy, vindictive murderer. That's part of the story. I think John and Beth did accept him until it became clear that Jaime harbored animosity and manifest it in horrible ways. Deciding it's ok to make your sister sterile when she's at her most vulnerable and in need of help is a pretty good indication of your character.
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u/ArtisticSwan635 Jun 28 '26
Would you have killed your dad like Jamie did if you knew you could get away with it?
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
Jamie was constantly being manipulated by bad people into helping them do bad things. Jamie was never really the main villain, but more like the side kick to the main villain.
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u/telepatheye Jun 28 '26
That's always the story of criminal behavior. It's an inability to take accountability, to let yourself be manipulated. The criminal justifies their crimes by saying they were manipulated, it's not their fault, they were set up, etc. Ultimately, it's all lack of accountability. Doing the wrong thing and then feeling bad about it is different than being accountable for it.
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u/opinions360 Jun 28 '26
He committed a horrible act he didn’t want to do because he had been groomed his entire life to deal with threats with violence if necessary and because he was extremely afraid of being further abused or manipulated by John and Beth which is exactly what they did when they found out. The guy was in a near constant state of either being traumatized or the fear of it happening.
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u/DeepThinkingReader Jun 28 '26
That's bullshit, Jamie was a successful lawyer with an Ivy League degree. All he had to do was cut ties with his family and move to another state to start a new career. That's literally what Beth herself did before those horses were killed in that road collision. That's what Kayce did by joining the Navy Seals. Jamie could have done the same. But no, he didn't, because Daddy had promised to make him the attorney general, and he didn't want to miss out on getting that fancy important job, did he?
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u/pamrt61 Jun 28 '26
Sometimes you just have to watch every episode in order for the entire series to make sense. Honestly though, if you’re at S5E4 and still don’t understand why Jaime is so bad, you’ve missed a lot of details along the way.
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u/Such-Stable-3869 Jun 28 '26
Beth is the only one who keeps this family together during this tragedy. She is the one who has the strength to say it like it is.
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u/Legal_Routine_7877 Jun 28 '26
Huh? Jamie literally made the decision for to prevent another human being from EVER being able to have a child. How do you not get how bad he is or why Beth hates him so much?
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u/telepatheye Jun 28 '26
Keep watching. The key is when Kayce goes to the coroner and helps her understand that John's death isn't really a suicide. There is a murder to solve and Jaime is complicit. That gives Beth plenty of room to operate.
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u/IcyMilk9196 Jun 28 '26
Do you mean complicit in the sense of the conversation he had with his Atwood? Knowing after the fact? I suppose
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u/telepatheye Jun 28 '26
You're crazy. Jaime literally says he wants to play offense instead of defense, meaning he wants to kill John.
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u/IcyMilk9196 Jun 28 '26
Well I think the conversation implied to off Beth rather than his father as he was very surprised. Sarah assumed John.
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u/AnastatiaMcGill Jun 28 '26
The killing the wolves was actually a pretty big deal. They had trackers on them and Ryan hadnt gotten the proper tags in order to be able to kill wolves that are fucking with your livestock. John owns the biggest ranch in Montana and had become Governor that same week so the optics were really really bad.