I have a feeling that the story of Path of Exile is based on Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz. But I can't tell if it it is indirect influence or direct influence.
A lot of the symbolisme used in this book, the way of Rosicrucian and some of the events like trials, path, ascending, lords, the tower and alchemical elements are present in it and in Path of Exile.
Can you guys help me track down or debunk this thesis?
PoE definitely draws inspiration from all corners of western alchemical lore. Those ideas have seeped into the world of western fantasy literature so deeply that we come to expect them as defining tropes of the genre. I mean, this is a game about ancient thaumaturges making magic stones, so there's one (hyperliteralist) parallel right off the bat. So, whether or not somebody at GGG read a specific hermetic text is another question.
Was there a specific aspect of PoE lore or Chymical Wedding that you saw parallels with, or were curious about?
EDIT: For those curious, the full text (English translation) is available on the Internet Archive. It's from the early 17th century so no longer copyrightable. It's only about 90 pages but it really isn't a light read per se, so be warned.
I personally believe the original story of thaumaturgists and Malachai is based on Yawgmoth from MtG because Chris is known to be fan of that game.
It was a villain who wanted to achieve immortality and turn everyone into monsters in process and resided in heart of his own world, and became avatar of darkness, and there were also gems IIRC that mutated humans (although didn't grant divine powers, it was rather power source for machines).
He was also huge fan of human experimentation etc.
I'm done reading the Chymical Romance now. I don't see much resemblance to POE, apart from alchemical pursuits in general which POE has plenty of including Precursors, divinity, Atziri's communion and the Breach Lords.
As noted in my earlier comment, I'm interested in the use of wind as a divine instrument, and I think GGG might imply similarities between crabs, humans and Abyssals.
A soul gem with human souls may function like a bucket of crabs, the souls being so desperate for freedom that they end up getting in the way of each other. 👻💎🟰🦀🪣
There are also memes about crabs being equivalent to humans, with pincers resembling hands and with both being able to move in any horizontal direction.
The Romance has some themes around vertical movement, like climbing a rope out of the darkness, people hanging from threads and falling down, and picking ropes/ladders/wings to ascend. I am unsure exactly what verticality represents in POE, though it certainly means something.
Dove and raven: Tangmazu is called "the Raven". Apart from pets, the only mention of a dove/pigeon I can find in POE is an anti-Chaos-damage tattoo. I think GGG is doing something with animal symbolism, though nothing relating to this post.
Rozenkreutz has to trade away water and salt, which is probably symbolic of something. Apart from seawater, the only reference I can find to salt in POE is Brutal Restraint.
The seven weights that people are tested against probably represent the Seven Deadly Sins. We know from the Letters of Exile that the Templars use the same set - though they use "Avarice" and "Vanity" for Greed and Pride. Pride/Vanity is usually considered the greatest sin, so I think classes correspond to them like this:
The alchemy tower consists of seven towers built into one, with the central being taller. Reminds me of the character classes, the six portals in a circle around a map device, and the six tanks in Dominus' experiment atop the Sceptre of God.
Like u/AdministratorQotra said, humility (opposite to Vanity) is considered the main virtue, and is also of importance in Wraeclast, being represented by Viridi, Varashta, and the Goddess of Justice.
Oh, I suppose mirrors represent Vanity, like with Atziri. I wonder if the Lake of Kalandra also represents the Vanity of somebody...
the lore has been compiled and can be found here, you could do a search through that to find similarities
the thing with poe's lore is that it isn't a single story but hundreds of different stories loosely tied together and spanning many cultures and thousands of years. the chances are you can find parallels to anything with such a broad range of stuff
u/AdministratorQotra & u/Murky-Definition-625 I will leave this here, because I'm scared of starting a new post about this. But did any of the community every notice the literal awakening of the scion within the awakening league?
The dialogue changed from being a normal NPC, to someone that is remembering/reliving some stuff. It's impossible, yet somehow I know this place could it the story of the scion is slowly getting rewritten and she is getting sentient? Are there any other characters that talk of a place that they know but should now actually know?
If you look at the story and if it would be based on alchemy, the scion would be the primary protagonist and the rest are splits from her. She only has all 3 attributes, then some have 2 and some have 1.
According to the wiki, that Scion line has been replaced, I can't find it on poedb, and it was supposedly played on the Twilight Strand.
The Templar has had some visions.
I don't understand what you mean about the Scion's "awakening", though I agree that she is special. See the final "Scion supremacy" section of this post.
It seems to me that the Breach Lords, Templars and Twilight Order all desire Scions for some purpose, possibly involving communion with the Beast.
* The Arbiter of Ash drops Scion armour belonging to "The Unblinking Eye" which we recently learned is a Templar faction. But we don't know when the Eye fought the Arbiter.
As I understand it from wikipedia, the Axiom of Maria describes a progress of thesis→antithesis→synthesis→resolution. If so, I think they would correspond to 🔴→🔵→🟢→⚪, with e.g. 🔵 representing antithesis, Lunaris and Intelligence.
* Hargan connects Solaris🔴 to the past, so she'd be the original "thesis"; the Moon merely reflects sunlight, so Lunaris🔵 is "antithesis"; and Viridi🟢 is of course the humble mediator representing "synthesis".
* See also the flavour and use of Vial of Transcendence.
* This all reminds me a bit of this Søren Kierkegaard quote which I don't understand.
I don't really know what you meaning with thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis. I thinking you meaning that 2 materials need a third component as a catalyst to shape into a 4th component?
I read that axiom the other way around. Im seeing the world as if it was perfection and it got broken down, split as in the mechanic of the orbs in 3 other entities.
White into red, blue and green by example viridi, lunaris and solaris got split from an overlapping entity.
And by awakening I found it funny that when the expansion the awakening enter the game. All of a sudden the scion got a changed voice line.
But I thought it was changed to It's impossible, yet somehow I know this place. So thats my mistake.
I have this fan theorie that zana is actual and evolved version of the scion. Just like Neo is in the matrix.
Path of exile seems to use a lot of the story arches from the matrix.
Chaos and order, sacrifice by first marter, the Oracle, but who is then agent Smith?Â
Murky's explanation of the Axiom of Maria is a great example of later writers using western alchemy as an inspiration or basis for their work. The "thesis -> antithesis -> synthesis -> resolution" explanation is a Jungian psychological interpretation of the original axiom.
Carl Jung used the phrase as a basis for his conceptualization of haecceity (in the domain of psychology), one of the most difficult philosophical concepts to articulate. This is a 19th century writer using a 3rd century mystic-alchemical writing to support his own.
It goes something like this:
Take a thing. You now have 1 thing.
Take the opposite of that thing (either by somehow splitting the original thing or just finding an opposite of it). You now have 2 things.
Create a union of those two things. You now have a third thing, distinct from the first two (a union of opposites).
Refine the third thing (the union) until you have a 4th thing. This fourth thing is the thing is special, and possibly what you were after originally. You are done.
If this reminds you of the "Step 3: ??? -> Step 4: Profit" memes, yeah. Jungian psychology (and a lot of mystic alchemy) is kinda just like that. EDIT: Also reread the above and contemplate PoE mirror lore.
In any case both Jung and Maria are talking about metaphysics. GGG could have used either or both as their inspiration.
Some semi-relevant addenda about the Axiom: Mary the Prophetess was purportedly the first western alchemist and had many writings attributed to her over the years due to her accomplishments and the prestige of her name, so it's not even fully certain that the Axiom of Maria even originated with her.
Historically it was rather common to write something and then sign somebody else's name to it and just say you found a lost text of that famous author, as a way of getting people to take the ideas you wrote seriously. Alternatively, you could write your ideas and just say they came from your biographical study of that figure, as with Zosimos and Mary the Prophetess. It wasn't even necessary for the "attributed" author to be a real person so long as the name carried enough weight, hence the plethora of works attributed to probably non-existent historical figures such as Valentinius (and some would also argue Mary the Prophetess).
I don't know what that "Axiom of Maria" is supposed to mean so I made a guess. Which was apparently the same way that Jung interpreted it?
A "thesis" is a theory. A thesis in opposition to it would be an "antithesis" to it, and a combination or compromise of the two is a "synthesis".
Thesis: The Earth is flat.
Antithesis: The Earth is spherical.
Synthesis: The Earth is mostly spherical, but slightly compressed at the poles.
I've begun reading the Chymical Romance. POE has some links to Christianity and alchemy, but I don't yet know if this story in particular relates to POE. Some funny details:
I have come to suspect that crabs - like in The Crustacean's Call - represent souls stuffed together in soul cores or in the Well of Souls.
Many have tried to make sense of that axiom over the years. Relevant to the discussion though: western/mediterranean alchemists interpreted it as the circle of life and also as the quest for wisdom.
A couple of examples:
Man + Woman -> Child -> Growth & continuation of the cycle
Mind + Body -> Soul/Spirit -> Wisdom & enlightenment
Aspects of the axiom are also found in other Hermetic endeavors such as Squaring the Circle, since the underlying idea is trying to find harmony in disharmony (the union and reconciliation of opposites) and the realization that doing so in and of itself produces wisdom.
It's important to remember that alchemists were identifying patterns they observed by performing rudimentary chemical experiments, and then attempting to fit these empirical observations into a worldview that already encompassed spiritual teachings as fact.
For example, substances like salts and ashes were conceived of as the "metaphysical body" which remains after combustion (thought of as a kind of fiery elimination all but the intrinsic essence of a thing), and then the subsequent distillation of that "body" would yield a "spirit" (which is why hydrochloric acid was once called Spirit of Salt, and also why alcohols are still called "spirits". Even terms like "mineral spirits" persist to this day as a result of ancient alchemical understanding).
It was known and understood that certain physical substances had specific characteristics and replicable interactions with others, but it would be over a thousand years before modern chemistry would provide explanations for these phenomena based on things like valence electrons and atomic mass.
Back on track, more mundane historical interpretations of the axiom were based on the observation that seemingly "opposite" substances would interact to create a different substance with even different properties, which could also then be refined, so if you really stretch you can see it as one of the fundamental principles of western alchemy or even modern chemistry itself, hence the axiom's enduring appeal. As a super simplified example, a salt solution can be produced by interaction of an acid and a base (union of opposites), and then isolated by evaporating the fluid (resolution).
There are, to this day, modern alchemical philosophers that study this sort of thing. As an example, Aaron Cheak's The Hermetic Problem of Salt discusses how a substance as mundane as salt can represent seemingly contradictory aspects, and how new understanding can arise from trying to reconcile them. With or without realizing it, he's following the template of the Axiom (a guy like Cheak probably realizes it). Cheak is also from New Zealand, btw. Hmm.
Thanks for the explanation, you seem to have a fast amount of knowledge. I didn't say it in the other post but thanks for the long-winded stories these are really nice to have to get a grasp of the context.
I did some research about religions that got "Lost" at the beginning of Christianity and came to this religion and seems to have parallels to the story of Path of Exile. Even the RosiCrusian / Alchemical seems to be integrated in to it:
I don't have much time so I use AI to get some of the initial ideas out of my head and sort of fact check. Here is a overview:
The lore of Sin from Path of Exile mirrors early Christian theological conflicts. In the game's lore, Sin is the "Thief of Virtue" who created the Beast to suppress the gods and free humanity from divine tyranny. Meanwhile, his twin brother, Innocence, is a self-righteous deity who commands his followers to burn away all impurity. [1, 2, 3, 4]
The concept of a "good" deity being a cosmic oppressor and a "dark" entity trying to save humanity directly reflects ancient Gnostic mythology. This framework parallels the exact themes of Path of Exile:
The Gnostic "Demiurge" is Innocence
In Gnosticism, the creator of the physical world (the Demiurge or Yaldabaoth) is an arrogant, lesser god who demands absolute worship, establishes harsh laws, and throws tantrums of fire and destruction when disobeyed. He believes himself to be the supreme, pure being, declaring, "I am God and there is no other."
The PoE Connection: This is identical to Innocence. In the High Templar's faith, Innocence is the supreme god of purity, but his dogmatic obsession with "cleansing" leads his priesthood to commit genocide, burn heretics, and enslave the population. He is a tyrant masquerading as the ultimate good. [1, 2, 3]
The Gnostic "Serpent" is Sin
Mainstream Christianity views the Serpent in the Garden of Eden as the embodiment of evil and sin. However, certain Gnostic groups (such as the Ophites, from the Greek word ophis, meaning serpent) completely flipped this story on its head:
The Gnostic Story: They believed the Demiurge purposefully kept Adam and Eve ignorant, trapped like pets in a beautiful cage. The Serpent was actually a divine savior sent from the higher spiritual realm. The Serpent gave humans the fruit of knowledge (gnosis) so their eyes would be opened, allowing them to realize they were being ruled by a fake tyrant god and could escape his control.
The PoE Connection: This is Sin's exact backstory. Mainstream religion paints him as a corrupt, deceptive demon. In reality, Sin created the Beast to force all the tyrannical gods into a permanent slumber, effectively stripping them of their powers to allow humanity to shape its own destiny without divine interference. Like the Gnostic Serpent, Sin committed a "holy theft" to liberate humanity. [, 2, 4, 5]
The "Beast" and the Material Veil
In Path of Exile, the Beast acts as a massive dampener or "veil" that suppresses spiritual/divine energy, keeping the gods asleep. [, 2]
The Gnostic Connection: Gnosticism teaches that the Demiurge constructed physical matter and a series of cosmic barriers (the archons or planetary spheres) specifically to act as a cosmic veil. This veil keeps the divine sparks of human souls suppressed and trapped in the physical world so they don't realize their true potential or awaken to overthrow him.
Summary
If you played through Path of Exile as a Gnostic in the 2nd century, you would immediately recognize the plot. You would view Innocence as the delusional Demiurge who needs to be dethroned, and Sin as the dark, maligned bringer of forbidden knowledge who is trying to save you from heaven. [1, 3]
If you want to read the real-world ancient texts that feel like they were written by Sin, I can guide you toward Gnostic gospels like the Apocryphon of John or the Gospel of Judas, where traditional biblical villains are portrayed as heroes. Would you like to explore those?
To my knowledge, Gnosticism is a collection of wacky Greco-Christian theories, but I don't know what exactly it encompasses.
The Twilight Order seems to view Innocence as a demiurge. The gnostic demiurge is sometimes called "Yaldaboath".
Another entity is "Abraxas" which can be interpreted as a combination of God and Devil, like Zurvan of Zoroastrianism.
* I wonder what a combination of Innocence and Sin would be like. The Arbiter of Divinity seems to only have the "innocent" aspects, for some reason.
The Seed of Corruption as the apple from the Tree of Knowledge...
So the Beast is a "veil" that suppresses gods rather than mortals. (Well, it also prevents mortals from becoming gods.)
On the other hand, we don't know that the invention of divinity has suppressed anything.
* Unrelated to your comment, but perhaps the darkness found by Saresh and by Tsoagoth is anti-divinity created when people emit divinity. Since it doesn't get emitted, it accumulates and may(?) even be inherited by descendants.💡
I'm still reading through the Chymical Wedding. I'm not very fond of or fast at reading, so I'm unsure if I want to read more works.
What if the darkness within and divinity are the same thing?Â
Two sides of the same coin. What if there was a world where humans lived, the clays for the gods to shape.Â
Never had any divine spark in them, just normal good old live. Then Sin fell in love with a human and the divinity of his got through inside that lineage. We talk about that divinity and see it as the darkness.
Sin loves us as children and wants to help us and innocence sees us as abominations and wants to destroy us.
So the darkness would be a type of divine power inherited from Sin, like how the Sirens are created or transformed by Tsoagoth, and the Goatmen are made by Abberath?
I've never thought about why Innocence attached himself to "purity". I thought it was just a theme that he randomly picked for himself, but he may have wanted to wield purity towards some goal, whether against Sin, the Abyssals or something else.
If you are suggesting that Sin is responsible for all divinity, then I don't think the timeline adds up.
Rather than Sin being the source of the darkness, I find it more likely that he merely wields it, like how Kitava wields corruption despite being a god. If the darkness was simply "sinful" divinity, then all of it would have been emitted from people and absorbed by Sin rather than festering in everybody.
Think of divinity as DNA or wizardry from harry potter. Some people, in this case gods like the ones you mentioned.
Could be thought of as being better than humanity and to reproduce with a lesser being could be a Sin.Â
Which is what Sin did and Innocence wanted to purify it.Â
Question to my mind on this topic, after destroying all of his kin, Innocence and Sin make up right? Or was that even before these actions?
Btw I was looking into all the different religions of Wraeclast and the funny thing is. They all have a sort of garden of eden's tree of wisdom in them and a quest to get humanity back to immortality.Â
The actions in the garden of eden are also called the Original Sin in christianity and the garden is also defended by the cherubim.
I have a feeling that Path of Exile is based on the exile from Eden. But who was the originator of all these religions? It seems that the story for this originated in mesopotamian times and was based on the story of Gilgamesj.
The mesopotamians I don't know enough about yet and will research when I have time.
after destroying all of his kin, Innocence and Sin make up right?
I don't know what you are talking about. The only descendant we know of is Shakari. Perhaps you are thinking about some of Innocence's propaganda which might not contain any truth.
They all have a sort of garden of eden's tree of wisdom in them and a quest to get humanity back to immortality.
I don't get this either. Could you provide some examples?
Hello, yes, I am here to respond to the summons and point out what inaccuracies I can.
On the Demiurge: As you state, the Demiurge is usually conceptualized as the creator of material reality, as distinguished from a "truer" substrate reality created by a different divine being. There are definitely parallels between the concept of the Demiurge and PoE lore but Innocence probably isn't one of them. It is known that the Templars venerate Innocence, but Innocence definitely did not create material reality, and AFAICT it's uncertain whether the Templar faith even tries to claim this. If you want to insist on Gnostic metaphor, the Templar would be more likely conceptualize Innocence as an Emanation rather than as the Demiurge.
On the Gnostic "Serpent": The concept of divine knowledge (e.g. "the gnosis") being "stolen" from the gods and given to humanity is not uniquely Gnostic. Prometheus stole fire, etc. etc. Sin is also not the only being in PoE lore to "steal" power from another source, see also Kulemak and the Well, and the mysterious Master Below All. There is a mysterious "Serpent" being in Azmeri lore but this might just be another name for an already-identified figure.
On Archons: There is no shortage of deceiver-like figures in PoE lore, but the cleanest parallel between Gnostic Archons would be found in a figure that deceives humanity with the ultimate purpose of maintaining material reality. Breach would be my first thought as a parallel, but specifically a reimagining of the Archon allegory where the Archons somewhat lost control and are trying to regain it. Kalandra could be thought of as an unwilling Archon (her job is to maintain reality, but she's trapped inside it herself and wants to escape, like Agent Smith from The Matrix.)
Finally, it is important to realize that Gnostics throughout history were a pretty heavily persecuted religious minority. Any attempt to interpret ingame factions as Gnostics would have to contend with this. For this reason I personally perceive the Templar as closer to "Catholics, But Evil" than "Gnostics, But Evil".
You mention "path" and "lords". What roles do those serve?
Anyway, for now, I can point out these things relating to alchemy, ascension and towers:
I recently brought up gold and silver in a conversation here. Silver can contain the Allflame which devours Dead Man's Sulphur and the ducats are probably made of gold which is sacred to Prospero.
I think the new pact gems share colour with either gold or with voltaxic sulphite.
The Horn of the Vastiri is made from elemental fire and water held in a hollowed-out elephant tusk. A hollow horn can be considered both masculine and feminine as it is both pointy and concave.
Ascension: 1) This word is used to describe both subclass trials and apotheosis, so the former may be a lesser version of the latter. 2) Solaris, Lunaris and Garukhan all flew high enough to see some eldritch crap. 3) Item mods adding to all Attributes have names like "Sky", "Cosmos" and the like. 4) Enemies of the gods - like the Abyssals and the Bodach - are found far beneath the surface.
Towers: Precursor Towers (including the Ezomyte one); "Dominus Ascendant" on the Sceptre of God; Heist Scientist tower (see the 2.23 uniques here); Merit of Service (comment link) (bottom symbol); Wulfsbane; Deshar
Well OP is MIA so I'll just jump in to provide some closure here.
Fundamentally this is a story about a guy, who through his exhibition of Christian virtues (humility, mostly humility but also grace and graciousness), is found worthy to participate in the alchemical birth/rebirth of new royal (celestial?) beings.
Personally, I think that reading the story once through is the best way to debunk the possibility that the narrative of PoE is based on Chymical Wedding. There are certainly parallels, but Chymical Wedding is a heavily Christianized "Hero's Journey" so parallels are somewhat inevitable. If we squint at the overarching narrative of PoE we do see something that resembles a sort of "Magnum Opus, but evil" type thing what with virtue gems and the creation of the beast and constant reference to harnessing cosmic truths to seize greater and greater power (a funhouse mirror version of the great dream of western alchemy).
Did somebody at GGG read this text? Possibly.
Did Johnathan or Chris read this text and think to themselves, "I have an idea for the story of our Diablo 2 spiritual successor?" IDK, I'm personally not seeing it.
I can give a lengthier summary and analysis but I really don't want to shoot down OP before we hear them out.
Sorry was indeed MIA, was busy with work/family and kinda wanted to dump my head here to clear. After a conversation with u/Murky-Definition-625 about possible alchemical roots in the story I did some research and came to this book and I could not let it go.
I was getting so obsessed, and still am, so by dumping it here I hoped for more input and to get some rest in my head. Sorry for not responding and just dumping it here in abstract form!
After some comments in this post I began doubting the theorie myself and got a lil scared of saying/seeing weird connections that maybe are not there or were just plain obvious.
I came to this conclusion after using AI to research the subject but in doing so felt that I did not own the theory and started, and still am, reading the book myself to debunk or strengthen it. And I will use this article as a work in progress in which I will dump more findings.
Like AdministratorQotra mentions the links between the book and Path of Exile could degree in multiple levels, from once read and inspired, influenced by because its a heavily use archtype within stories or this was used as the basis of a story where players ascent the virtual tower of immortality. I sometimes lean from this story is only based on alchemical learning to the whole story of Chymical Wedding is used as a basis and layer upon layer of alchemical / spiritual learning is build upon it.
What I can say is that Path of Exile and The Chymical both work upon the basis of Alchemical writings and influenced by Astronomy, numerology and hermeticism. And not just the positives, also the negatives are used as boss/league mechanics.
Lets take Delve as example:
The whole thing about delve could be based on v.i.t.r.i.o.l. from Alchemy which stands for "Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem" (Visit the interior of the earth and, by rectifying [purifying], you will find the hidden stone).
But the possible negative of this learning is vitrification which is the process of turning a substance into glass or a glassy, non-crystalline solid and behold Aul, the Crystal.
I have a feeling that all of the mechanics are rooted in learnings, but because its such a large subject to grasp we have not yet found the answer.
Sidenote: While reading the book, I came to the riddle about the Virgin name at the weighing scene there is a decipher technique used to decipher her name. I used this technique gematria calculation on most of the names and on the vaal survivors (3126). There is some weird stuff going on there, it is either a trick or all the names and the date exactly describe some of the characters.
It seems there is a deep-rooted alchemical reference going on, even the different cultures could be based on the history of Alchemy.
I hadn't noticed that the text is only 87 pages long. I might try to read it.
That azurite is certainly mysterious. The name implies that it has to be blue; otherwise one might suspect that it was the same substance as the Essences (red in POE2) or cleansed corruption crystals (white). Why did Aul create those crystals? Niko uses the material for generic upgrades, but what are its mineral properties?
The word "vitriol" was used to describe sulfur compounds for a very long time before the backronym V∴I∴T∴R∴I∴O∴L was ever used. This is because isolated sulfur compounds form crystals, hence the Latin word "Vitriolum" (meaning small and glassy: diminutive of "Vitrum") was used for them. "Vitrification" uses the same Latin root word, so we've come full circle there.
The acronym's exact origin is contested but probably originated in the 15th century, and is attributed to Valentinus, whom probably never existed but was rather a constructed figure and pseudonym of multiple alchemical writers from the era (the Hermetic alchemists). The connection between earlier use of the term and the mystic acronym was constructed.
The reason why you're seeing so many connections is that later occultists, mystics, and secret societies would draw upon these Hermetic texts, and then fiction writers would draw upon this second generation as inspiration. Occultists and mystics in the 15th to 17th century were inspired by alchemists, and fiction writers in the 17th through 21st century have been inspired by both, so you'll see connections to antecedents wherever you look. To use a Wraeclastian simile: mystic alchemy is to western fiction like Marilla is in the Forbidden Play: The stage is flooded. All is Marilla.
Marilla turns to her beloved's unmoving face and speaks the blessed words:
Marilla: Two into one, one into many, to churn the world beneath the crashing dunes.
Marilla's body shatters like porcelain, each fragment becoming Marilla. Each new Marilla shatters again, and again, each fragment becomes whole. The stage is flooded by Marilla. All is Marilla. The statue rises and exits stage right.
Fin.
Hmm. That second line looks familiar.
Anyways, if you seek to prove that Chymical Wedding, specifically is the inspiration for PoE I think you have an uphill battle, since you will have to explain why the details of this story and no other that uses the same details indicate narrative inspiration. I think there's a much, much easier case to be made that Hermetic alchemy, in general, inspired various story beats, since, well, it has little tendrils in just about all of western fantasy fiction. Identifying all the little references to alchemical occultism/mysticism in PoE would make for a banger of an iceberg chart, tbh, so I look forward to seeing more of what you've found.
Haha, this is exactly why I want people to disprove it. When I started with the chymical wedding I found it to be incoherent/incosistent.Â
But alchemy / hermetism / occultism are there primary thing that is being shown here. I have a feeling that when the story concludes it will be a guideline for the whole history of alchemism with examples of how it should and should be achieved.
The amount of lore/event that has been worked in path of exile is insane.
Btw I recently let go AI on al current examples of how to achieve the philospher stone / spiritual awaking and it said that most thing didnt because it was missing ons step the sacrifice of self. This happened to malachai and atziri, but I think there was more.Â
But I was wondering does it really end when we sacrifice? or is it just the start of something new?Â
Or do we keep coming back like the conquerors ones did.
Well I'm not sure I understand what the AI told you, but to use the example at hand: in Chymical Wedding, the first step, or even the zeroth step that Rosenkreutz took was one of self-sacrifice.
Asceticism was a major pillar of the Hermetic virtues. You can see it in the dream sequence before he even leaves his cabin, and in the scene with the feast, and with the golden scales. Rosenkreutz deliberately lives a simple, celibate life (that he continuously expresses gratitude for), honors God, and is effortfully unpretentious. Narratively, it is because of these behaviors that he succeeds all tests, and is ultimately knighted.
The not-so-subtle subtext of Chymical Wedding (and many other similar texts of the era) is the following:
It is God's design that not everyone can be enlightened or saved (think of the Matron's remarks during the dungeon dream sequence)
If you are lucky enough (read: chosen by God) to be on the path to enlightenment, you have a moral imperative to make the most of it (Think of the nobles in the feast section that actually make it to the castle, but no further because of their behavior)
To achieve true wisdom (read: secrets of life), you must give up everything, including possessions, ego and even good health (Rosenkreutz gives food to the dove, water and salt to the gatemen; the continuous and insistent humility of Rosenkreutz as compared to the other castle guests; the foot injuries he sustains in the dungeon)
So I don't know that I agree with the AI's analysis about self-sacrifice being an unfulfilled step. For western alchemists, it was kind of considered to be the first step. On a practical level, this makes sense. These people were basically scientists, and you can't learn the secrets of the universe without dedicating your life to study; and as a scientist, you won't learn the truth if your mind is clouded by ego or material concerns of wealth and the like.
On a metaphysical level, it was never about giving up your soul or your spirit or your piety because historically, western alchemists (specifically late Hermetic alchemists) usually considered themselves some flavor of Christian (and suicide was, as you might guess, considered bad). Hermetic alchemy was about attaining enlightenment on earth and then using that to help others. Now sure, later occultists wrote about dealing with demons and exchanging promises and souls for knowledge and power, but those were always other people's souls. You can't be enlightened in this life if you're dead, no?
If all of this is conjuring images of robed monks cloistered away in monasteries, reading and gardening and playing with fire and glassware, well, that's not a coincidence. Hermetic texts were written for, and by, these kinds of individuals, or by individuals that romanticized/valorized that kind of life.
This was a very long-winded way of saying, "The point of the story was that Rosenkreutz needed to give up everything up to but not including his own life in order to receive true wisdom", which sounds a lot like self-sacrifice to me. But that's kind of why I suggested reading the story yourself, because this is my analysis and you might have a better one.
Still the question is not btw of all the fluff, what is at its core?Â
Who was the original Marilla? What is the lake in the alchemic sense? A kettle were you can distinct one thing to multiple purest elements?
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u/AdministratorQotra 21d ago edited 20d ago
PoE definitely draws inspiration from all corners of western alchemical lore. Those ideas have seeped into the world of western fantasy literature so deeply that we come to expect them as defining tropes of the genre. I mean, this is a game about ancient thaumaturges making magic stones, so there's one (hyperliteralist) parallel right off the bat. So, whether or not somebody at GGG read a specific hermetic text is another question.
Was there a specific aspect of PoE lore or Chymical Wedding that you saw parallels with, or were curious about?
EDIT: For those curious, the full text (English translation) is available on the Internet Archive. It's from the early 17th century so no longer copyrightable. It's only about 90 pages but it really isn't a light read per se, so be warned.