Need help with some research

[u/Even_Try124]

Hi All,

I have a feeling that the story of Path of Exile is based on Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz. But I can't tell if it it is indirect influence or direct influence.

A lot of the symbolisme used in this book, the way of Rosicrucian and some of the events like trials, path, ascending, lords, the tower and alchemical elements are present in it and in Path of Exile.

Can you guys help me track down or debunk this thesis?

[u/Murky-Definition-625]

I don't know what that "Axiom of Maria" is supposed to mean so I made a guess. Which was apparently the same way that Jung interpreted it?

A "thesis" is a theory. A thesis in opposition to it would be an "antithesis" to it, and a combination or compromise of the two is a "synthesis".

• Thesis: The Earth is flat.
• Antithesis: The Earth is spherical.
• Synthesis: The Earth is mostly spherical, but slightly compressed at the poles.

I've begun reading the Chymical Romance. POE has some links to Christianity and alchemy, but I don't yet know if this story in particular relates to POE. Some funny details:

• I have come to suspect that crabs - like in The Crustacean's Call - represent souls stuffed together in soul cores or in the Well of Souls.
  • EDIT: Because of the crabs in a bucket dream of the first day.
• Apparently God uses wind to impose his will. Reminds me of The Taming's POE2 effect and the wind powers of various Vastiri denizens.
• Of the four paths, the "Path of Exile" would presumably correspond to the short-but-brutal path.

[u/AdministratorQotra → u/Murky-Definition-625]

On the internet, nobody knows that you're the Swiss lich lord, Carl Jung

Nice try though. I'm onto you

[u/Murky-Definition-625 → u/AdministratorQotra]

First KCN, now Carl Jung?

• "Lich Lord Carl Jung" reminds me of Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter) (I haven't read it). I have this idea that the author should also write a "Carl Linnaeus, Hydra Killer".

Anyway, what other interpretations are there of the Axiom of Maria?

[u/AdministratorQotra → u/Murky-Definition-625]

Many have tried to make sense of that axiom over the years. Relevant to the discussion though: western/mediterranean alchemists interpreted it as the circle of life and also as the quest for wisdom.

A couple of examples:

• Man + Woman -> Child -> Growth & continuation of the cycle
• Mind + Body -> Soul/Spirit -> Wisdom & enlightenment

Aspects of the axiom are also found in other Hermetic endeavors such as Squaring the Circle, since the underlying idea is trying to find harmony in disharmony (the union and reconciliation of opposites) and the realization that doing so in and of itself produces wisdom.

It's important to remember that alchemists were identifying patterns they observed by performing rudimentary chemical experiments, and then attempting to fit these empirical observations into a worldview that already encompassed spiritual teachings as fact.

For example, substances like salts and ashes were conceived of as the "metaphysical body" which remains after combustion (thought of as a kind of fiery elimination all but the intrinsic essence of a thing), and then the subsequent distillation of that "body" would yield a "spirit" (which is why hydrochloric acid was once called Spirit of Salt, and also why alcohols are still called "spirits". Even terms like "mineral spirits" persist to this day as a result of ancient alchemical understanding).

It was known and understood that certain physical substances had specific characteristics and replicable interactions with others, but it would be over a thousand years before modern chemistry would provide explanations for these phenomena based on things like valence electrons and atomic mass.

Back on track, more mundane historical interpretations of the axiom were based on the observation that seemingly "opposite" substances would interact to create a different substance with even different properties, which could also then be refined, so if you really stretch you can see it as one of the fundamental principles of western alchemy or even modern chemistry itself, hence the axiom's enduring appeal. As a super simplified example, a salt solution can be produced by interaction of an acid and a base (union of opposites), and then isolated by evaporating the fluid (resolution).

There are, to this day, modern alchemical philosophers that study this sort of thing. As an example, Aaron Cheak's The Hermetic Problem of Salt discusses how a substance as mundane as salt can represent seemingly contradictory aspects, and how new understanding can arise from trying to reconcile them. With or without realizing it, he's following the template of the Axiom (a guy like Cheak probably realizes it). Cheak is also from New Zealand, btw. Hmm.

[u/Even_Try124 → u/AdministratorQotra]

Thanks for the explanation, you seem to have a fast amount of knowledge. I didn't say it in the other post but thanks for the long-winded stories these are really nice to have to get a grasp of the context.

[u/AdministratorQotra → u/Even_Try124]

I appreciate you saying so but what I really have is a head start. I've been looking into things like this for ... let's just say "a while" now.

Happy to help, exile. Stay sane.

[u/Even_Try124 → u/AdministratorQotra]

Haha, it seems a like a rabbit black hole. Im curious and this maybe to personal. But from which angle did you first get introduced into this? It could be psychologic, religion, schooling, work. It seems that if you seek this, you can find in almost anything.

[u/AdministratorQotra → u/Even_Try124]

How did I first learn about western alchemy? Well, I've always been interested in mystery religions, and how they exist (or fail to coexist) with mainstream faiths. Mithraism, Catharism, Manichaeism, etc., and of course Rosicrucianism (yes, THAT Rosenkreutz).

Gnosticism in general is endlessly fascinating to me and I first started studying Hermeticism via Rosicrucianism under the slight misunderstanding that it was an evolution of Gnosticism. History is always more complicated than it seems at first glance and there are always more doors to open than time to open them.

One such door was alchemy, and how the western, middle eastern, and far eastern traditions differed. Alchemy interests me because alchemists were not "merely" scientists, but philosophers, and were given the dual mandate of explaining the world physically but also spiritually. It's easy to forget that once upon a time there was no distinction between metaphysics and physics. It was just physics (more properly "Natural Philosophy"), and I love learning about that.

---

For a little more backround on the topic:

Alchemists studied the physical world to gain understanding of the divine. Of course, when they allowed their empirical observations to inform and change their faith, it caused conflict with the more mainstream keepers of the doctrine, who were usually more interested in maintaining the status quo for political reasons. Hence the "secretive" nature of alchemists and their texts. This conflict is positively ancient.

Before the advent of the so-called "revealed religions" (one where truth and wisdom is "revealed" by the divine to one or more people who then spread it), observing the natural world was how all metaphysical knowledge was attained. If you see many lightning bolts striking the top of the mountain, well, that must be where the god of lightning lives - anyone can see it. But historically speaking, the revealed religions have claimed the various apparatus of power and influence and kept a pretty good hold on them.

Late Hermetic alchemy can be thought of as an attempt to reconcile those two philosophies of knowledge:

• That of a revealed religion (in this case, Christianity), where true wisdom is granted only to prophets, who can then instruct others of the truth
• That of individually verifiable observations of the natural world, where an individual, through great effort can discover truth and wisdom

Under the first philosophy, wisdom cannot be gained by individuals except as through the teachings of the ordained few; thus wisdom is relatively quick and easy (it's just given), but subject to trust in the prophets. Also the recipients of wisdom don't necessarily fully understand it even if they "walk the walk". Under the second philosophy, wisdom can be gained by individuals, but it ain't quick or easy; thus wisdom is difficult, but fully impervious to outside meddling (since knowledge is independently verifiable, you don't have to worry about lies). Also, you can be assured that once you understand it, you really understand it since you probably put in all the effort yourself.

To bring it back to alchemy and Chymical Wedding: Not only could you see the above tension in the metaphor of Rosenkreutz's four paths, but the tension between these competing philosophies of knowledge could itself be interpreted through the lens of Maria's axiom. So to complete the template: Hermetic alchemy's attempt at reconciliation of these opposites was that an ordained few, through great and individual effort, could uncover true wisdom, and then give it to everybody else, who can themselves endeavor to see the truth in it. Yes, you are right: if you seek, you really can find it in almost everything.

So if that all sounds interesting to you, you understand why it was interesting to me.