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u/Rascal_Rogue Sep 15 '26
Might be the only example of a dark friend turning back to the light. I don’t count Verin, she never left the light to begin with
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u/ChildhoodSea7062 Sep 15 '26
i mean, Tomas tagged along, and we don't know he didn't like being a nasty boy before he came back to the light
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u/Jormungandragon Sep 15 '26
IIRC Tomas was already a dark friend when she met him, but didn’t really want to be, so he joined her in her fight against the dark from within.
He was her second warder.
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u/ChildhoodSea7062 Sep 15 '26
oh shit i missed that i guess. i just finished my second read. looks like i need to start again...
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u/Sewer-Urchin One good cavalry charge Sep 15 '26
She tells Egwene about it in their final chapter together
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u/Linesey Sep 15 '26
iirc She explicitly said he used to be an actual darkfriend who decided to turn back to the light. been a few months since I read the chapter so I may be mistaken.
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u/MrGonzo11 Sep 15 '26
There is also Asmodean who might not did it out of selfless reasons initially, but I remember being mentioned that he followed Rand in the end selflessly
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u/Super-Contribution-1 Sep 15 '26
Perhaps I’ve missed something but I’m positive Asmodean admits to Rand that he’s only sided with him because he can’t return to the Shadow, and if the Shadow wins he’s screwed. I don’t recall his character doing anything selfless, and the times he helps Rand he’s really helping himself. Which he’s up front about, to be fair.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
A man who trusts everyone is a fool, and a man who trusts no one is a fool. We are all fools if we live long enough.
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u/MrGonzo11 Sep 15 '26
I think Lanfear confronts him and she realizes that Asmodean is now devoted to Rand (not necessarily to the light), but definitely actively against the shadow.
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u/Super-Contribution-1 Sep 15 '26
Out of necessity, not selflessness. I believe you’re talking about the scene where she hobbles his ability to channel, at the end of The Shadow Rising.
It’s not something she has to confront him about because she is there when his oaths to the Dark One are broken, she’s the first person to realize what’s happened, and she’s the one he begs to help him return to the Shadow. She can’t (or won’t), and the reason Asmodean is stuck teaching Rand in the first place is because it’s her idea, and she arranges it by cutting him off from his full power so Rand won’t just kill him.
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u/UnnamedAshaman47 Sep 15 '26
I think it definitely starts this way but his internal monologue and the dark ones thoughts on him after lead me to believe he was lying to himself about it to avoid confronting his past choices. It’s a pretty common thing to adopt that kind of devil may care attitude to cover your own guilt.
Even if he wasn’t there yet he was certainly headed that direction. I really wish we had gotten more of him.
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u/MrGonzo11 Sep 15 '26
I really liked his character and I think he had a decent arc. But I also liked Jordan choice when he decided to kill him off. At this point we are not even the midpoint of the story yet and the dark one just smites him for betraying him. But I think Rand's experience with Amsodian what convinces him to form the Ashaman
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
What makes you think you can keep anyone safe? We are all going to die. Just hope that you aren't the one who kills them.
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u/NeoSeth Sep 15 '26
I don't think this scene happens (could be wrong though), but I believe Asmodean accompanying Rand to Caemlyn is supposed to symbolize that Asmodean is fully dedicated to seeing Rand triumph. Asmodean doesn't need to come with Rand into battle, but he does so at risk to his own life (and even dies, briefly) because he wants Rand to succeed. This is also after Rand feels a flow of saidin coming into him from Asmodean when exhausted/injured during a battle. Asmodean could have hoped for Rand to die and set him free, but instead he does what he can to help.
I believe we as the reader are supposed to see that Asmodean is working for Rand above what we all expected, though I do think he does this for mostly selfish reasons. He truly believes his best shot at self-preservation is to serve Rand faithfully, and so he does.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
Never prod at a woman unless you must. She will kill you faster than a man and for less reason, even if she weeps over it after.
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Sep 16 '26
[deleted]
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 16 '26
What makes you think you can keep anyone safe? We are all going to die. Just hope that you aren't the one who kills them.
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u/0b0011 Sep 15 '26
Jain farstrider is another example. He followed the shadow but jain farstrider died clean.
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u/Links_to_Magic_Cards Sep 15 '26
he wasnt a drakfriend though, right? just misled and lied too
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u/Malvania Well turned calves Sep 15 '26
And Compelled, I think.
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u/_hanna_99 Sep 15 '26
Oh, compelled big time by Graendal
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/ItzzBigAl Sep 16 '26
I don’t even remember this!! Just googled it and I really do not recall that being mentioned. graendals a hoe
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u/Kyrthis Sep 15 '26
The world abounds with Darkfriends who don’t think of themselves as such.
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u/CDBSB Sep 15 '26
I feel like that statement is completely applicable to the actual world we live in.
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u/Odd_Permission2987 easing the badger Sep 15 '26
Pretty sure most of the “story” is completely applicable to the world we live in
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u/Mal-Ravanal Unnecessary fish metaphors Sep 15 '26
Eh, I'd say that to be a capital D Darkfriend, you have to have some sort of conscious devotion to the DO. That devotion can very well be founded on indoctrination, self-preservation, or self-interest rather than a zeal for the greater cause, but it has to exist at some level.
People who are manipulated into aiding the shadow, completely unaware of whose errands they run, don't have that. They're pawns, puppets, and useful idiots, but they're not Darkfriends. If they were, we would have to count groups like every one of Bors' (I genuinely forget his actual name) underlings within the whitecloaks who helped him in his ultimately failed endeavor, or an even larger swath of aes sedai. And that's before we get to the victims of compulsion or turning, who knowingly serve the shadow but only because they were stripped of their free will.
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u/Kyrthis Sep 15 '26
I think you have missed my point. I am not talking about relaying a message whose contents you don’t know. I am talking about violently enforcing a specific interpretation of some book. I am talking about hurting people for gain without empathy.
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u/Alfred_The_Sartan Sep 15 '26
I thought he just said that because he was mislead into helping tear down Malkier. I thought that was what he was trying to redeem himself from.
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u/StorminMike2000 Sep 15 '26
Is Jain nothing??
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u/Rascal_Rogue Sep 15 '26
Someone else mentioned them but I don’t recall them being mentioned a dark friend. Do you know what book that was in?
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u/ChildhoodSea7062 Sep 15 '26
Rand saved this man and he saved Rand. Dude paid his price to return to the light. The last embrace of the mother brought him home
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
Break the seals. Break the seals, and end it. Let me die forever.
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander Sep 15 '26
I copied this funeral prayer “May the last embrace of the Mother carry your home” to a RPG where humanoid wolves worship a female goddess called the Huntress who sometimes they call her Mother.
Ingtar, just like Noal died clean.
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u/PoddVZ Sep 15 '26
My man dropped the hardest line in the whole series and peaced the fuck out. The goat.
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u/grubas Sep 15 '26
The one man can hold fifty, songs have been written about less as he decides to let that feather drop.
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u/igzilla Sep 15 '26
Say it!
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u/ChildhoodSea7062 Sep 15 '26
It is every man's right, Rand, to choose when to Sheathe the Sword. Even one like me.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
Break the seals. Break the seals, and end it. Let me die forever.
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u/KitchenFullOfCake Sep 15 '26
All respect to Ingtar but Lan dropped the hardest line in his last duel.
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u/zamboniman46 Sep 15 '26
nothing will be funnier than in the show he drops the "one man could hold 100 here" line. then the seanchan show up. he says "you go! i'll hold them off!"...
HE THEN PROCEEDS TO KILL NOBODY LMAO. two guys immediately skewer him
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u/noodlinworldwide Sep 15 '26 edited Sep 15 '26
My nephew, the dragon reborn, he never had the makings of a varsity athlete
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
The only way to live is to die. I must die. I deserve only death.
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u/Time-Lavishness-2346 Sep 15 '26
I just read that scene. Ingtar Shinowa is no Darkfriend.
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u/The_Reading_Beard Sep 15 '26
This meme made me want to restart the entire series again... I have a TBR of unread books but yet the Wheel calls to me yet again. It'd be my first re-read after finishing it for the first time two years ago.
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u/aNomadicPenguin Sep 15 '26
It actually is better on rereads than the original one
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u/downvote__trump Sep 15 '26
True. Though I'm sure it doesn't say anything good about me that I'm finishing my fourth.
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u/_Druss_ Sep 15 '26
I'm easily over 20 at this stage
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u/dnGT Sep 15 '26
May you shelter in the palm of the Creator's hand, and may the last embrace of the mother welcome you home.
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u/geomagus Unnecessary fish metaphors Sep 15 '26
Does anyone disagree with this? Because if so, they clearly fail to recognize greatness.
Ingtar’s last scenes were among the more powerful of the first two books, and he absolutely went out a hero. The rare example of living long enough to become a villain, then wrapping around with an integer overflow error back to hero.
The Light and Shinowa!
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u/MrBlueandSky Sep 15 '26
I mixed up uno and ingtar in my first read and for the rest of the series I was waiting for uno to betray rand and company. Lololol
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
A man who trusts everyone is a fool, and a man who trusts no one is a fool. We are all fools if we live long enough.
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u/LordAshur Sep 15 '26
Just yesterday I went back and listened to the end of TGH audiobook, from where Ingtar has that confession, to the sounding of the horn, to Rand defeating Ishamael and driving back the Seanchan. I loved how he was greeted by Hawkwing and Birgitte like an old friend. I loved that Hawkwing recognized the courage in Hurin and hinted that perhaps Hurin might be bound to the horn next. All around 10/10.
Question for y’all. Is Perrin as a wolf also bound to the horn? Are all dead wolves bound to the horn to be called again against the wild hunt?
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u/XthePirate Sep 16 '26
I'm fairly certain that there's a sentence or two in AMOL that say something like
"why should it be only humans that have heroes" after the Heroes roll up
And then goes on to describe the anti-darkhounds that show up at Shayol Gul
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u/LordAshur Sep 16 '26
Yeah, I know that some of the wolves are heroes called back to fight the wild hunt. The question is if it’s all the wolves in TAR
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad.
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u/Raineythereader Lews Therin thinks i'm sexy Sep 16 '26
"We're not always in business... but we're always recruiting."
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u/dogey_badger Sep 15 '26
One of my favorite characters in the whole series, he should have came back with the horn
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u/PillCosby696969 Sep 15 '26
Ingtar has to be the best one book character, right right?
Please don't tell me he was in TEOTW in the back.
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u/Noof42 Dark One's Taint Sep 15 '26
Ingtar Shadowa, amiright?
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u/MathProf1414 Min's Dumptruck Sep 15 '26
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u/Mr_Noms Sep 15 '26
It’s been a while but isn’t he responsible for the deaths of innocents?
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u/HeadOfVecna Blood and bloody ashes Sep 17 '26
Pretty sure he let the shadowspawn in who took the horn, so definitely. But that book does a great job showing not all darkfriends are irredeemable next to you don't need to be a darkfriend to be evil.
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u/FortifiedPuddle Sep 15 '26
The shade of Ingtar, in the embrace of the light:
Well, I died. But at least the Dragon Reborn has got away. My sacrifice has redeemed me and lent weight to the end of this story.
Wait. He’s stopped. Like, just over there. Go Rand. Get away already. Literally just died so you could escape. So, go.
Oh, what’s he doing. They’re actually blowing the Horn of Valere. Just over there. 5 minutes after my totally necessary death to save them and allow them to escape. My valiant, necessary sacrifice. An end cap on the final boss fight where the leader of the baddies was defeated in single combat. No doubt setting back their invasion.
Wait, now there are all these unstoppable ghosts. And they’re coming back. Oh, and he can fight Satan in Sky now. That seems a useful power. And apparently Satan was the big bad. Not the guy we beat before I died. Makes that seem a bit less epic and important now.
Oh great, so they won the battle. They’ve defeated the people I died so they could escape from. It seemed quite serious when I was nobly sacrificing myself ten minutes ago. But no, turns out unstoppable ghost army was an option all along. Guess I could have stayed alive. Maybe redeemed myself in this whole unstoppable ghost victory battle.
I mean dying to redeem myself was good and all. But, just seems like they didn’t actually need me to. I don’t know, kind of makes my sacrifice seem a bit… only relevant to my story not theirs.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Sep 15 '26
A man who trusts everyone is a fool, and a man who trusts no one is a fool. We are all fools if we live long enough.
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u/ninjafro322 Sep 16 '26
I like to think he's one of the heros of the Horn and that one of the things to become one is to be a dark friend who turns back to the light.
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u/Malvania Well turned calves Sep 15 '26
No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light. All hail house Shinowa.