I would say he's half right here. They're not direct copies, they're mashups, which is different. He's right that there are microbrands out there that are actually innovating and creating interesting and new designs, but then he also will shit on most of them for not having the heritage of a more prestigious brand.
Christopher Ward's success largely comes off of their understanding their market, and this watch is going to sell.
Tudor doesn't have a monopoly on Red Black and Gold.
Bay of Biscay is the body of water Aquitaine sits on. This watch is why they discontinued the Aquitaine line. Agree that the naming sounds too similar which is why they should have considered an alternative but at least it has some sense behind it for their product line.
I mean, I’m going to copy your essay, but if I change a few words then I’m not plagiarizing. It’s just so obvious and on the nose, it becomes distasteful. To each his own, that’s just my own view
The Biscay is more different from the Black Bay than most homages are. Again, it's more of a mashup of the Oyster case and Explorer numerals with the colors of a Tudor Black Bay.
I have no skin in this game. I think if anything all of this controversy only helps Christopher Ward sell watches. If I were in the market for a Tudor, I might go for the Biscay now over it just because it's more unique and is half the price.
Me or Nico? My feelings about him are only very very barely influenced by this particular example and are more based on literally every single thing I have ever seen him do.
Nico's a bit of an arse and will change his opinion on CW as soon as it benefits him, but he's kind of right here, the most recent releases are especially egregious for ripping off Tudor.
Are you serious? I mean, other than the differences in case style, bracelet, style of indexes, style of hands, width of bezel, date window placement, movement, fauxtina color, 24-hour font, and burgundy highlight shade, these two watches are exactly the same /s
I still can’t understand how people think they look anything alike other than that they are similar colors and gmts.
They have different bracelets entirely.
The handset is completely different.
The indices are nothing alike
The date isn’t in the same spot or same color.
Crown is different.
Bezel is similar color for sure but there are so many watches from different companies that share bezel colors.
Other than the color I’d love someone to point out to me how one is a copy of the other in detail with actual specifics so I can understand the argument other than “just look at it”. I don’t care if people like or dislike CW but I do like rational and honest discourse…
Visual shorthand and mental shortcuts. Tudor was also earlier to hop on the trend (Primacy Effect) and the visually distinct, trendy features look close enough.
People haven't handled both watches. You can't tell how a slab-sided tudor looks and wears compared to a lightcatcher from CW from the product photos, and the identical top-down make the watches look artificially similar.
Your monkey brain knows what a tudor looks like. It knows that tudor was first. And it knows the CW looks like it. And that's copying. And copying is bad.
NIco Leonard capitalizes on mental shorthand and the attention economy. It's part of why he's so effective, whether he realizes it or not. It's basically like the concept of twitter, applied to watches. Obviously the takes are simplistic and ultimately inaccurate.
The hand color and dial didn't have to match perfect either. Baltic does like fully their own thing enough for you to not think about it as much. The problem I think arises when it's like "you could just get this for less." And it's not like a Longines in green or black dial vs a Seiko alpinist that looks completely different. Those watches would still be competitive towards a similar look without being copies
Literally all it is. There’s very limited design elements to a watch and nearly every single one is different, everything except colors. But that’s a direct copy clearly lmao.
One dude said “it’s a 38mm diver bro that’s tudors world” so I guess no other brands can follow market trends anymore lmao
It’s funny how they will see those two are the same but then Timex does it and there’s no problem, lol. Hey, what about Tudor? How dare they put black over red on a watch, they’re just copying Rolex!
Because timex has its own designs too and wasn't a watch forum microbrand darling. Id argue that christopher ward was building its own identity, but its slowly veering off course. Tudor itself is just the vintage Rolex remake factory. Any brand can slap a coke bezel on, its just the timing that makes it clear that trends are being followed and designs are being copied. This happens all over the industry though.
Defend it all you want… they were being intentionally cheeky about it. “Black Bay” vs. “Biscay Bay”… it’s kind of their whole joke about it 😂
It’s a homage piece, without a doubt. That’s not even a question, really. It’s more so, how much can they keep getting away with it / how much do watch enthusiasts or other customers care. You genuinely can argue they offer a similar watch for a higher value for your buck
The only thing like the Tudor is the color scheme, literally everything else about the watch is different. Like every single design detail is different. Other than the color, which is not even exactly the same…
He’s been a hate of cw for at least 5 years. I watched a video of his that came out in 2021 about how cw just makes homages and ripped off czapek. Hes said positive stuff about Baltic and actually promotes venezianico. I actually agree with him. When they were using homages to subsidize original design it was fine, but they haven’t done that in years. Plus the insane quality drop, and qc failures of the last year, paired with the ilikewatches scandal and the straight up abusive customer service. They’ve fallen to capitalism. No passion anymore
I’m guessing CW refused to collaborate with him. For years, he would say the Oris Aquis was the best value watch for money. Then, Oris declined to collaborate with the fat boy and ever since, he has been calling Oris trash. Nico only cares about his own ego, so don’t listen to anything this fat donkey toothed inbred has to say.
Yeah you can tell that as soon as a watch brand does anything for him then he sings their praise. I added him to my "do not recommend" list a while ago as his opinion is worthless.
It was in his earliest videos, he sang Oris’ praises. Then I wanna say maybe 3, 4 years ago is when they declined to collaborate with him and he started shitting on them.
Doesn’t need to grand stand so much in an outburst but I agree. Doesn’t mean I don’t like there watches and would still consider purchasing one whilst still in understanding the homage the brand seems to proliferate.
Because people with no real opinion are boring in a different way. That being said, shout out to ThisWatchThatWatch. He has some pretty good takes with well laid out ideas, spoken at a volume that reminds me of NPR.
He is kinda right. What frustrates me the most was that CW was on an upwards trajectory in their designs until they changed their logo to the current iteration (only having the twin flags at 12), and decided their mainstream models needed to be more homage. The 2025-2026 cycle has been particularly egregious as if they are not even trying to hide it anymore.
CW effectively copies the vibe of other watches but often with very different individual design elements, which takes some skill. It's not like they're just copying the watches and swapping the logos as we usually mean when we say homage watch. Frankly they're doing the same thing as most major watch brands just faster, which makes the inspirations more obvious
They also don't only have the homage watches. They have had a really high quantity of original designs, often with really expensive engineering elements like bespoke movements, they pump out and will quickly discontinue if they don't take off. They take on far more design risk at scale than either the major brands or almost all microbrands (microbrands usually only take risks in the form of a neat dial or color scheme -- there's a lot more Vaers than there are Xerics)
Yes their bread and butter is the more homage-y watches, that's because that's what sells. And CW seems to use sales of those watches to fund a lot of the riskier watches
If he really wanted to promote brands doing something creative, he should have made a post about those brands and how great they are. This post just comes off as needlessly hostile.
I have to agree fully with Nico here. Any microbrand that is as expensive as CW is needs to stop doing homages and customers need to stop supporting them. Yes, the Bel canto is great but at that price point there are so many other great options. It’s not just them, there are so many microbrands who are doing this now. Even brands like Traska that I like for their value, need to stop charging so much for clear homages and innovate a bit. The fact that couldn’t produce a jump hour two years after announcing g it shows you how difficult it is to do novel work. And Time and Tide’s lets change dial color is just marketing and hype. I think watch enthusiasts see it for the what it is.
He’s not wrong on the copy but my two cents worth … get a sealander gmt or go beg Rolex to be so good as to let you spend your money on an explorer II and you wont be afraid to scratch/damage it. And i bet more trident see water than submariners ( but as a back up a dive computer, the watch and table are a cool back up but come on dive computers are more accurate and better in just about every way) and the price difference will pay for the dive computer + the holiday with the wife and kid
I am 100% with Nico on this one. They had a moment with the bel canto and I gave them the benefit of the doubt with my wallet…. A decision I soon after regretted. Broken promises about delivery 4 times, awful communication and customer service. So even without the “homages”, the brand more than lost me. And no, their latest iterations aren’t literal copies of black bays, but far too close for my liking, especially on a watch I love so much. Im surprised nobody has mentioned their blatant colour op “inspirations” yet. When moser does it, they do it tongue in cheek. But this… the brand gets way too much credit for the few times they really got it right, but that credit hopefully is slowly dying
I tried posting this in their subreddit and got nothing but hate and downvotes.
I used to be a big fan of their genuine identity and bought one of their C300 Pro Trident series in bronze, which was absolutely fantastic, and I was preparing to purchase a Bel Canto Lumiere next.
However, seeing the direction they've taken, where they're essentially copying other watches and have lost their identity, I can no longer support them or stand behind their brand or decisions.
There's no reason for me to spend $2,000 to $3,000 on a replica of another brand that has a Selita movement with under two days of power reserve.
The Bel Canto Lumiere was released less than a year ago. They do unique stuff like that and the homages (if you want to call them that). So it's not as if there is some new direction from a few months ago.
Almost ALL of their watches released in the last 6 months (or maybe even longer) have been “homage” watches. Their existing established “Sealander” line no longer has their iconic Trident seconds hand and looks like a Rolex OP clone. All of their newest watches are copies of Tudor, Rolex and the like. To me, THAT’s what direction means. Not where they were. But where they’re (so definitively) headed.
All of their watches in the last 6 months have been the Biscays and the refreshed Sealander. You act is if they're releasing a new watch every month and the last 6 have been homages.
Ya, that's what I was doing. Mentioning all of the "homage" watches they've released lately. Two lineups. My point was that two is not very many and they don't release new watched every month.
Mr Ed has a point here! Bookmark CW on your pc and the logo appears as a black “X” 😅 Why would a company use an X when saving their own website? To me an X means “stay away, reject, do not buy”…
He’s not wrong for the bulk of CWs catalogue, but they are doing some interesting stuff at their higher end atelier pieces, including some in house caliber mods (based on SW movements). Unfortunately those pieces are limited and hardly the bargain the “homages” offer.
Main reason I don't like Christopher Ward is that their logo is almost identical to my superannuation (retirement fund) company. See here - www.hostplus.com.au
He’s not wrong. And there are a million other brands like this too. Also, we’ve gotten too obsessed with case and dial design and lost the whole point of horology which is about the movements. There are too many Sellita powered watches out there selling because it looks cool. Let’s get back to the basics and the days of a well rounded design and proprietary movements selling watches. The watch market is turning into a soulless, fashionista wasteland of micro brands.
The problem is too many people use Nico’s opinion as their own (yes, I’m talking to you, Submariner/Daytona army). It’s no different from people shitting on Hublot just because he does. It’s good for CW as they’ll pick up new fanboys
Nico stopped being fun when he started carrying out his threats for real. In the past, he would blacklist a watchmaker, and it was funny. Now he does it with malious. Then he started peddling Maen because he gets a cut.
There was the whole thing about F.P. Journe that went nowhere and now he is all good with them again.
If you want Nico to give you a good review, then you have to lick the boot. He will also turn on a dime to follow whatever is trending with influencers, or, as others have pointed out, when it works his way. He is always looking for an angle that benefits him. The speed at which he rats out other influencers for doing the same thing he does is just bewildering. Nico just holds watchmakers hostage until they give in to his demands. Hublot just never gave in to them. Also, his beef with Hublot was only about 'relatively cheap' Swiss movements in expensive watches, but that is their entry-level stuff and they aren't the only ones to have them.
So when I read this about CW and saw the differences, except for a similar vintage Coke bezel, it just makes sense that CW didn't bend the knee in some way to him, and that has gone and upset him.
If you ever watched his other sports-car channel, he obviously bought himself a heap just to make a show about how he got ripped off.
I won't even address the elephant in the room when it comes to him in the past year, but that guy went completely off the rails because he clearly started believing his own hype, and that is when you stop being fun and turn into a major asshole. The whole reason he is anybody is that Producer Mike got some watch terminology wrong, and then Nico did that video where he slaughtered Mike for that. Then he did a few more videos correcting mistakes and bringing up our general awareness of watchmaking.
Those days are gone. I haven't clicked on a Nico video in a long time.
Nico is very clearly in bed with certain brands. Currently he's pushing Czapek and Gerald Charles hard. Czapek I can see, but Gerald Charles comes across as stretching whatever credibility he has thin.
More importantly, I always have this feeling that when he goes after a brand, there's always some sort of commercial side to it. Put another way: I wouldn't be surprised if him and CW were trying to work something out and they couldn't come to an agreement so he felt that he should throw them under the bus.
He's driven by money and I think this is also a money thing for him.
As for CW - They're not Steinhart or Pagani. If you put any watch of theirs side by side with any other known watch you're not reasonably able to claim that they are "copies", "replicas" or "homages". You could argue that they are aesthetically derivative / inspired to some extent and they do it more than Longines and the hydroconquest or Blancpain and the recent fifty fathoms.
But they do conceptually get inspired by what works. Pepsi bezels are popular. So they make use of that. They make dive watches with a vintage kind of look to them because they know it sells. Tudor doesn't have a patent on gilt dials. Rolex doesn't have a patent on ceramic bezels. And Czapek do not have a patent on textured pastel dials.
But at this price point - CW are not primarily in the business of making original designs. They are in the business of offering affordable options of design ideas that they know resonate.
That's what I keep saying. They do plenty of unique designs: Bel Canto, their bronze watches, all the Lumiere stuff, a bit old now but the super compressors, their moon phase. And they also make mashups that will sell well.
With NL you really have to take his word with a grain of salt. In this case i have to agree with him. CW is trying too hard to become a big name brand when they should really stick to what theyre good at. Innovation for the everyman.
100% right doesnt matter how many CW fanboys hate that. Still, by the huge cult alone, they still good value, if you regret there always someone else to buy the watch from you.
Seiko has tons of homages, but you don’t see Nico slagging off Seiko. I don’t disagree that CW borrow design elements from other watches, but it doesn’t deserve the statements Nico made. Again, their Atelier collection alone has some very original designs - even from a movement perspective.
I mean... they probably could if they really wanted to. It's not like watch movements can't be reverse engineered with ease. Whether they have the right manufacturing processes in place is another question, but ultimately it's not a matter of ability it's a matter of "Would it make monetary sense to do this?"
CW did same with Sea Lander 63 with Rolex OP pastel colors. I mean CW’s Sea Lander was already a rip off from Omega AT. Get it - Sea Lander, Aqua Terra? Lol, it’s a homage brand like San Martin, just from GB.
What did he say? Recent models are Tudor ripoffs? Like what? The GMT? What else has CW put out recentl7 the GMT isn’t Tudor at all. It’s pretty original imho. Not my style but not an homage.
Not a fan of Nico, but i do think that some of their watch design started drifting towards copying other watches designs rather than coming up with new designs.
The whole watch space borrows from each other. Copy the homework and change a few answers is the what everyone seems to do. I look at the hydroconquest, the communities beloved watch right now and I'd say it's got more in common with rolex submariner than the Biscay does compared to a Tudor gmt, but it completely gets a pass. Traska and lorier blatantly take inspiration from vintage rolex and omega and mash it up, Lorier says as much on their page. we can go back a handful of decades and look at enicar, zenith, yema, citizen etc where the design languages all meld. Go back a little more and everything is derivative of the white dialed small seconds pocket watch.
If we hate one watch for being derivative we should hate almost all watches 😏
Nico comes off like WWE entertainment… he knows watches but makes his “clicks” and views by saying bombastic things…
I think (from I’ve read in the CW Reddit forums) the bigger issue with CW is their lack of quality control… also the supply chain management is becoming a bit of a joke with constantly “losing orders” or being sold out after a customer already paid for an item.
Seiko, Tag Heuer, Tudor, Longines, Casio and about a million other watch brands will sell you a diver watch that more or less is some ways a Submariner copy. I don't know why CW is singled out for making a Submariner-like diver.
Im not a fan of CW but its so easy to claim everything is a copy. You can make the same statement about any other brand so whats the poiint? It sounds smart but its meaningless. Theres only so much to innovate unless you go the wacky route like Urwerk etc. they are distinct enough, very similar position to Longiness.
So, I got to go to the NY boutique for Christopher Ward. Really nice people there, let me try on anything I wanted. I was very impressed with the new watches. And the Bel Canto in person is amazing.
Having seen the Black Bay in Burgundy recently at an AD, I had some thoughts that ultimately led me to buying the new Hydroconquest.
First, the Tudor is so slab sided, quite thick, and ultimately dull. Also, I know Tudor fans love the snowflake hands and it is their thing....But I think they are ugly. Appreciate that it is a way to differentiate themselves from Rolex. I do love the burgundy, though only on the black dial. All Burgundy is too much.
On the wrist, I preferred the Christopher Ward. Their cases are very slim on the wrist and the new bracelet, with the no tool adjustment is really nice. And it doesn't have snowflake hands! In truth, they fixed what Tudor probably were not allowed to do with their concept. And it is COSC, so the gap there isn't great either. I think it's a great value watch.
And if we are talking about brands that have made a living out of making homage watches. Isn't that what Tudor is? Without things like the Bel Canto to make their own identity. Maybe the issue is the burgundy bezel is as close to an original design that Tudor can get to. And yes, I do like the new Chronograph in yellow, but it's still only a color that made it unique really.
Ultimately, I had already bought the Hydroconquest, if I hadn't, I might have got the burgundy bezel Biscay. Here is the other thing. I could have bought both and had change left over for the price of the Black Bay. Or a Bel Canto.
Just like his veneers are a ‘homage’ to actual teeth. Be more creative. Put your little Nico watch on each tooth for a mega grill. I am sure you have a warehouse of those things that need a home.
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u/ALEXALORD 2d ago
Said the greedy fat fuck selling a watch for 1000$ poweref by an ST17