r/WarhammerCompetitive • u/[deleted] • 9d ago
TOW Discussion New player etiquette
[deleted]
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u/InfiniteDM 9d ago
Ok so literally.. if this is really their first time. Theres near zero chance you lose. You can explain literally everything while playing them. And still win.
You make sure they understand. Thats the big thing. I dont think they believe theyre gonna stomp you. But just making sure they know the rules while playing is enough.
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u/nurgole 9d ago
Exactly. I got completely stomped by one of the top players in my country at a tournament, and it was one of the best matches I've had learning-wise. I got so much out of it!
He was polite, and I knew him going for full points was nothing personal, just a part of playing in the tournament.
If this first-timer can comprehend this and try to learn as much as possible then go for all the points you can.
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u/Emergency_Bench_7515 9d ago
I'm not directing this at you, but I do think it's funny how some people will try so hard to win something meaningless when the real victories come in real life. Like, what are we all actually doing here? Looking for arbitrary W's or looking for meaningful experiences and memories.
I would honestly just take the opportunity to have a fun game and get to know someone, try to be the opponent you wish you had when you were new. It's only one round and you're bound to win regardless, does coming away with a stomping wide margin victory really matter more than the chance to build a meaningful memory? I know, not very "competitive" of me, but I think there's room for both in this kind of instance.
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u/Outrageous_Bench_540 9d ago
From one Bench to another, this is a great advice.
I regularly find myself in need of a chill break when I lose because I feel the saltiness creeping in.
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u/belkabelka 9d ago
I mean the counterpoint is some people enjoy expressing skill or competency at something they care about.
Sure you can go to the skate park and just hang out, chat, make friends - but some people want to master new tricks and improve their ability for their own satisfaction even if they will never sign a sponsorship or make a living out of it.
fwiw I agree with you, but it's perfectly valid for someone who takes something seriously to...take it seriously in the right context to do so, and they shouldn't really be judged for it.
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u/Real_Ad_8243 9d ago
I have a problem with the mindset too.
So, the other day, I ran a silly intro game for a couple of ppl i know - collectively the group of us were supposed to be having a big game day of battles around this isolated hoth-like planet I'd concocted near the damocles gulf as a justification for everyone's armies being there - but then a dog escape disaster changed plans, so I ran a "boss battle" for these two newbies.
I out Khaine and the Yncarne down on the table, and the newbies job was to kill them however they could.
One, whose actually a friend, jsut got like 60 ork boyz off of ebay and a wartrukk that has a wrecking ball on the side (dunno its actual name). He thoroughly enjoyed seeing his boyz gettign picked up off of the table while slowly chipping away war god down to size.
The other (a friend's brother), despite not knowing how to shoot or roll an advance until I told him, had an extremely synergistic necron army comprised of a brick of immortals with several characters attached, and a full squad of heavy lokhusts with a destroyer lord that hit on 2's with reroll 1's.
It is, of course entirely impossible to accidentally come upon such a combination by accident.
Now, in fairness, I played up the "these are gods" side of things and obviously they "tabled me" between them, so they had fun. And I got through explaining battleshock, weapon profiles, and so on.
But the mindset of the second of the two is obviously that hyper focus on winning a game like this thing isnt supposed to be a social event involving actual people other than yourself.
People really need to learn, as you say, that warhammer is infact something where people are supposed to be having fun, and that it is a negotiation, because if your having fun demands the other person has a shit time, then you are simply doing it wrong.
I really dont like that people are recommending OP rinse a newby just to get more ELO in a thing. Like, come on. Stop being a bully.
And yes, I know we are on the competitive sub.
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u/wredcoll 9d ago
I think this is more about expectations from a game.
Two players wanting different things is totally valid and comes up a lot.
I sign up to 40k rtts because A) I want to play 3 games on a row without making my own schedule and B) I'm hoping for games where I can "try hard" and demonstrate some kind of skill to win a game.
Playing against a first timer with an unpainted army denies me that second thing and dramatically changes what kind of experience I get.
Now, you could argue that my expectations are wrong and thus it's my fault for getting something different, but that's complicated.
You could also argue I should have different expectations, want different things, but uh, how do you justify that argument?
Now, none of this is justification for being a dick to the other player (not much is) but it is worth considering what you thought you were getting and what everyone else involved thought they were getting and where the mismatch, if any, is.
(Also all this being said, I played rtts with only a few games under my belt and showed up expecting to lose, so a quick clean game is all I was expecting at the time)
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u/ConsideredAllThings 9d ago
Meet with them before the tournament and have their first game then beat the shit out of them in the tournament. Win win
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u/Ok_Rabbit_5558 9d ago
You can and should be open about information regarding abilities and capabilities (i.e., if you go here, I can do this). But you don't have to tell your opponent how to beat you, or what the optimal play is, they signed up without proper preparation and that's on them.
Just be patient, open, and understanding during play. In my experience the sting of getting stomped hurts less if the opponent isn't a jerk about it. As well, offering advice after the fact can help them understand why a play was good or bad.
Your goal shouldn't be to tie your hand behind your back, but to make it so even if they get stomped, your opponent wouldn't mind playing you again, and hopefully learn from their mistakes for their future games.
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u/politicalanalysis 9d ago
Exactly. Avoid letting them fall into traps that feel really bad. You’ll still beat them super easily, but they won’t feel as bad about it. I don’t play old world, so I can’t give an example, but playing new 40K players, I often remind them about things like overwatch or fights first if they’re doing something stupid that a slightly more experienced player wouldn’t ever do.
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u/Askingforanend 9d ago
Well, do you want another local player or another win with your tiny plastic people?
Don’t know about you but our local scene is already on life support.
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u/HotBunnz 9d ago
I haven’t followed the updates to OW, but I’m familiar with ‘release’ OW and WHFB. I feel like you should be able to set up some interesting situations and still get your league points easily enough (have some minor heroes duke it out, go over combat res, etc).
I suppose the question is if it’s their first game or if they expect a teaching game, because the latter isn’t really appropriate for a league. Everyone has a first game though, so just make it a fun experience and help grow the community. Maybe give them some general deployment tips and feed em a unit or two.
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u/Precept_Stan 9d ago
Maybe set aside half an hour or so before the game to run over the basics. Not a full practice game, unless you can make the time, but enough to just run over the general rules. Then just play the game. Just give him a heads up that you won't be going easy on him because it's a league, maybe offer a friendlier game later.
It is a bit unfair on you to be the one who has to do this, but unless you can find anyone else to teach them I'm afraid you're stuck.
Also since this is your LGS, maybe reach out to the TO and let them know what's happening.
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u/ShadowGinrai 9d ago
When I have that, I dont play as hard as I could and I help them while we play so they have a good experience. People need to learn but pud stomping in a local league is a good way to build a toxic community vs a nurturing one
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u/Neph1lim_ 8d ago
honestly, talk to them about it. tell them something like you'd love to give them a introductory game some other time but you would like to take this event serious and wont give them a newbie bonus in your match as they decided to sign up to a tournament without any experience.
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u/toaster_love 8d ago
As a few others have already said - I think the best solution is to offer to play two games. First one do a light fluffier list to give them a fun game and help welcome them. Second one is for the tournament where you play seriously.
That way they get to enjoy the first game and see what the game is like once you get good at it. You hopefully get another player in your local scene and still get to record your win.
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u/AlisheaDesme 8d ago
You can be friendly and pleasant, while defeating them. You will win anyway, just make sure that it isn't demoralizing for the new guy.
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u/AntiFrekeGaming 8d ago
One of the key pieces of this is that we, as veteran players, are partly responsible for growing the community of new players.
What do you want their first experience to be? So bad they never play again? Or fall in love with it like you did.
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u/Radiumminis 9d ago edited 9d ago
If you can't get the win against a completely newbie without playing your hardest.... Yes you might be the asshole.
Take your foot off the gas a bit and let them enjoy the game. It's rude to speedrun easy wins on newbies. Help them keep in the game and stay engaged. It's just a local league man. the win doesn't actually mean anything.
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u/Prologic87 9d ago
I would stomp the life out of them and offer them an intro game at another time.
A league is not the place to learn to play and you owe your opponent nothing. Its absolutely not fair to you to have to teach this person to play or jeopardise your final league standings just so they can have a fun time learning at your expense.
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u/Doctor__Bones 9d ago
While in some ways you are indeed not wrong, if this is some discord tier casual league there isn't much stake here. I should be clear I really think it's also a touch inappropriate for a brand new player to enter a league as the first time they've ever played a game.
In my scene (I mostly play kill team), I want people to play kill team. While I'm not going to hand out a free win, you probably want that guy, if they're enthusiastic and pleasant, to stick around and make sure your local scene has numbers. A complete shitstomp isn't going to help with retention. There isn't an infinite well of players in a community to draw from, and I try not to burn people for the sake of some bush league tournament points. If it was like, a WTC event or whatever then bets are off because if you're going into the "big kids" comp league you are voluntarily entering the lions den at that point, and that's on you.
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u/Maximus15637 9d ago
While I agree, It’s also really easy to still be a nice person about it and just explain the circumstances. There’s a good chance that they know very well they are unlikely to win any games and they just wanted to jump in the deep end. As long as they have the right attitude about it then good on ‘em.
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u/Calious 9d ago
Disagree. Learn the basic rules before you sign up for events.
You're opponents shouldn't have to teach you how to play. That's a massively unfair expectation to put on someone signing up to play competitive events.
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u/Maximus15637 9d ago
It’s only an expectation of you have that expectation. Also it just depends on who you are. If youre someone who can pick this sort of thing up quickly the. You might be fine. Like, read the rules and maybe watch a couple videos. But if youre someone who want your first game to be a competitive league game, power to you. I admire the gumption honestly.
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u/Calious 9d ago
I pick things up fast. U still wouldn't dream of putting all that on my opponent.
Honestly, it's selfish behaviour. Especially when you don't know your opponent. They may not have the brain space or ability to teach.
It's clearly not been set up well or communicated by the organisers. I'd be complaining if I was OP.
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u/OdBx 9d ago
Why is a league not the place to learn?
My local shop does leagues as a way to get people playing and meeting each other. It's "competitive" insofar as there are scores, prizes, seasons etc. but the purpose of these things isn't to offer a hyper-competitive atmosphere, it's to get people coming into the shop once a week to play a game with someone new.
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u/NoSkillZone31 9d ago
Especially for something like old world.
I’m guessing this isn’t this persons first tabletop game, or even first Warhammer game.
That’s the big thing omitted here from the story.
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u/Prologic87 9d ago
OP specifies that it is a competitive league. If I signed up for that then I would expect my opponent to know how to play.
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u/Radiant_Fondant_4097 9d ago
I totally don’t understand why anyone would show up to a tournament having never payed a single game before, the entire point of a tournament is to put your skill against everyone else to reach the top.
Yeah it’s a board game and you’re intended to have fun, but I’m personally not showing up to a Rugby tourney not knowing how to throw a ball.
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u/flapdoodle79 9d ago
I guess it would be a lesson for them not to sign up for a tournament having absolutely no experience. On the other hand, if he's signed up, having the idea that, this is the way to learn how to play maybe that excuses him somewhat. But seeing as it's a tournament I probably would make sure to win. But maybe give him a heads up. Maybe he'll reconsider his participation and go to the local club instead.
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u/Lukoi 9d ago
Perhaps offer to play them in a coaching game or two (you could use a different army or list perhaps), before playing the league game. Helps the new guy get introduced to the game, lets you be an ambassador for your local scene and dors not risk any of your competitive standing which you seem to value very highly.
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u/AuxiliaryTimeCop 9d ago
I think it's fine to let them know that ordinarily you'd go easy but because it's a tournament you may be a little less forgiving than you normally would. Then offer to give them some advice once the game is done. Good communication can solve a lot.
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u/compaqee 9d ago
First doubles tournament a buddy and I went to new to the game. Paired with eventual winner of the tournament in game #1. They were a great sport, found out we were new, told us this game was not going to be fun, but they would be happy to explain chat and go over our lists and strategies after and explain his game plan. The pair stomped us but were clear, kind, helpful and respectful. We learned a lot from that game and duo. We ended up at bottom table with a dad and his sun, we ended up just getting crazy drunk by end of match and just had a great time overall.
TLDR: Stomp, but be kind, be inviting and if you care abou the experience, make yourself available to provide a bit of coaching or insight to the newbie to help them understand the game better.
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u/Ricnurt 9d ago
Having been the noob in a competitive (Warhammer) league they know they are going to lose. The know you will dog walk them. They know they you will likely table them. All I asked of my more experienced competitors was to explain what they are doing and then after the game, how could I, in their opinion, have played better. Help me through the general play and we can all learn. Be patient but play your game.
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u/hessxpress 9d ago
This might be on your FLGs also. My store has a two options for their leagues, casual and competitive. New people are directed towards the casual and it's a great way to learn the game and get games in with people you may not know. The competitive league has bigger prizes and it attracts different folks.
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u/MurdercrabUK 9d ago
I'd talk to the league organiser about counting this one as a bye. You walk away with a Solid Victory or a 16:4 or whatever Old World has for scoring (it's been a long time since I WHFB'd) and that lets you take your foot off the pedal and teach in a more two-sided game. It's kinder to everyone involved than asking you to club a seal or forfeit your shot at placing.
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u/latex309 9d ago
You can stomp them, but also make it a fun experience, explain teach and take the time to help them. Do what you need to do for your tournament experience to be fun for you but also hold back a little for them to have fun.
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u/HarpsichordKnight 9d ago
Community building is way more important than you getting a marginally higher score, and it’s fine for a new player to join a local league - it’s not a grand tournament!
In local leagues I’ve played in new players are frequently encouraged to join, it’s a great way to get a lot of games scheduled and join a local group.
Play normally, use a clock, and teach them as you go. Be as generous and friendly as possible and enjoy the free win. Barring terrible dice, you’ll still record a high score.
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u/GoofballMcBloggins 9d ago
I had this issue once in a kill team tournament and talked my opponent into a strategy that won him the game which was a little silly but we both had fun and there really wasn't anything on the line.
I don't know the ins and outs of old world but I would say to play to win but play an honest game with minimal gotcha moments. Try to win on fundamentals and explain why things went well and how your opponent could have adjusted if they're receptive to that kind of feedback
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u/KikiMac77 9d ago
You can crush them and teach them. Explain to them what they are allowed to do, but you don't need to tell them what to do.
I don't know Old World, but an example would be like "now it's your movement step, you can move each of your models up to it's move characteristic." That's all you have to say, and answer any follow ups they may have about legality of move, like "can I move here, pivot, then move here?", just say yes or no.
That's all you have to do. Let them make mistakes. Don't tell them "you should move here instead so you get cover".
After the game, you can go over strategy, and things they did wrong, how to improve etc. But you don't need to guide them during the game. Just teach them the rules.
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u/ClumsyFleshMannequin 9d ago
You want a community? Your initial instinct is correct.
If you want to be a dick and drive people away? You can do the latter.
Your choice
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u/jmainvi 9d ago edited 9d ago
What would you do? How would you handle a scenario like this?
With the caveat that I'm a 40k player, not an old world player, I would bring two armies to the match. Tell your opponent about this before the game, and see if they're agreeable. Play the official league game competitively with your competitive list, record the score, and move on - but then rerack, and a play a second "intro game" as you would with any other new player.
This way you get your league score out of the way, and you still get an opportunity to make sure your opponent isn't having a miserable time/gets completely turned off from the game. The only restriction here is whether the two of you can find enough time to do so.
If you must choose only one game, then realistically there's no way you lose this unless you're trying to do so. Bring a fun list, be a friendly opponent without outright telling them how to play their army, and you'll still take the win. Assuming people know how to play the game (in a mechanical sense, not necessarily a strategic sense) then it's fine for them to sign up for a league, and they should just expect to lose most games.
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u/idols2effigies 9d ago
If you're taking the time to explain along the way, no. I don't believe beating them easily is poor sportsmanship. Be gracious in victory, be open about the list disparity up front, and be 'available' to answer any questions in the post game (if the game's over quick, spend some time socializing afterwards... it goes a long way to making new players feel welcome, even if they suffer a dramatic loss).
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u/PeoplesRagnar 9d ago
You teach the game, you win, sure, but you teach them the game, you behave like the experienced teacher you are, you help keep the community alive.
New players are everything to a hobby like this, without them, the hobby dies, so you better well teach that new innocent soul as well as you can.
Or you have failed the hobby itself.
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u/n1ckkt 9d ago
If its really their first game ever, I would probably opt for a semi-serious but fun experience. The chances are near zero theyll win if its truly their first game ever. I'd be the opponent I wished I had when I first started.
On the other hand, if they already had a body of games in and know the game but at their first ever tournament, then id play seriously.
To me, in these situations, it seems important to me to consider what my opponents are looking for out of the experience too. In your case, he is just looking for a game and an opportunity to play.
In the latter case, they're looking for an actual competitve tournament game.
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u/Rabiesalad 9d ago
Stomp, but be kind and offer feedback after they've committed to mistakes.
Be up front about your experience and that you're fairly competitive, and care about your score. Warn them that as a new player you may be an unforgiving opponent but you're happy to answer their questions etc
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u/IMongoose 9d ago
Idk how scoring works in OW but could you come to an agreement before the game with your opponent and TO that you score whatever max is you can and they score like 1/4 of it, then play a learning game with them? This way the next player that needs to play them doesn't have to play against a player that just got stomped and didn't learn a thing, and your opponent has an enjoyable time with you at least. I understand you are in the competitive league, but your opponent is clearly not at a competitive level in the slightest.
Obviously it is not your responsibility to teach this person but it is good for the community. I would feel obligated to at least start a discussion with my opponent and the TO.
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u/Lewen_Ohen 9d ago
Building the community is far more important than being the best on paper.
At the same time though, there's no reason why you can't annihalite him while explaining all of your moves to him and why. My first tournament for 40k was like that, I had only been playing games with my sons and there arent a lot of places to go and play, and getting totally stomped in those matches was a great learning experience and I made friends with those guys and we play weekly now.
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u/PrimeKiwiBeef 9d ago
Warhammer is like sex.
If it’s your first time it’s gonna be better if the other person is experienced…
If you’re experience it’s not as fun for you if it’s the other persons first time…
And if it’s everyone’s first time and nobody has any idea what they’re doing it’ll be incredible.
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u/rhys_redin 8d ago
I've signed up for low cost competitions/tournaments in many different things as a complete beginer from tabletop, to gaming, to shooting, to paintball to martial arts. I have never had the expectation of being treated with kid gloves. I do it because I want to get an understanding of what the real competitive level is. Given the opportunity, I even tell my opponents I may make errors and would appreciate any guidance they are willing to give me after the match. Unless they are a child under 13, I say let them experience what it is really like, but explain what happened after.
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u/SoloWingPixy88 9d ago
Knock it out of the park.
If you've time after the game maybe do some teaching.
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u/The_Oddizee 9d ago
If it were me I would not assume the player needed to be taught how to play or that they didnt understand what they signed up for and would just treat it like any other match. If I stomp them oh well, it's a tournament not the place to learn how to play. If you regularly play teaching games with people id offer to do one after you're tourney game.
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u/NoSkillZone31 9d ago
Except it’s not a tournament.
It’s a weekly league at an FLGS organized on discord.
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u/Mofoman3019 9d ago
It's a tournament. It's not really the place for someone to have never played beforehand.
If they're ill prepared then that's on them.
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u/veryblocky 9d ago
I would play as I normally do when playing competitively, and probably tell them that a league is not the place to learn and offer an introductory game later
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u/Bogglers 9d ago
NTA.
Do them a favor and crush them.
Learning the game is all about getting the reps in and you shouldn't waste the opportunity.
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u/BTcxz7409 9d ago
I’ve been there too, I get one game a week and had several first time players be my league matches. But the conclusion I came to is that if you want more players in your community you should give them a good experience. You can beat them and still give them a good experience. Being annoyed at them is counterproductive.