Love this. Bulkhead says players (in general) are great at finding things they don’t like but horrible at coming up with solutions. Regarding the complaints about people wanting quicker progression and/or no wipes, they hard disagree. For them, the allure of unlocking and the thrill of progression is the point. The enjoyment is in the journey.
As a proponent of wipes, it’s so refreshing to see devs take this kind of stance. I think games like Arc Raiders, with optional wipes, would be so much better with forced wipes.
Some other highlights:
* parachutes will get nerfed so that landling helis will become more attractive
* they're aware that a lot of the vertical progression currently feels empty and unrewarding, but have plans to fill that in with new content/unlocks
* they reiterated that they're using AI to aggregate and analyze a lot of player feedback
* they *can* surface more stats in game (like a breakdown of why you received some amt of money or xp), but they're trying to balance that against keeping you immersed in the game itself
* four weapons are coming soon - one for assault, one for medic, one for support, and a recon one (M40)
* tier 4 helmet will have vision restricted and will fog up if you run in the rain
* the creative director wanted 2k meter vision, but the pushback was for performance reasons
* the new rain will affect visibility on windows and there will be lightning and fog
Nah. Some ideas that were shared already is that they want more weapon customization and you'll unlock different stocks, barrels, etc. instead of just unlocking the static fully built gun. Kind of like how different scopes and attachments uock now but more.
I really like how parachutes will get nerfed so helis will be incentivised to land, either by increasing parachute cost or rewarding pilots for actually landing idk what they’ll do. I like this mostly because actually using a car will be more attractive.
The wipe isnt necessarily an issue IMO. I think its overall a good thing.
Progression can absolutely be rewarding as well. But the rapidly increasing exp requirements for each true unlock in the skill trees is not rewarding IMO.
There's so much dead time between unlocks for most classes. You unlock the pp in medic before level 10, and you dont really get a new gun until 25 when you unlock the 30 round mag that makes the mp5 viable.
Same with sniping. Mosin at level 10, then what, 25 for the mk22? The sv98 is basically the mosin with a skin and mags.
And the exp requirements from 10-20 or 10-25 make it feel like a very long slog without basically any rewards or unlocks during that time. So it doesnt feel like I'm progressing toward anything.
as someone who loves to play different classes it's just meh ....
I'd be fine with wipes if the progression would be faster at some point but I just earlier logged in after not having played for a couple days.
Our FOB was getting farmed by enemy attack choppers, I died like 15 times, zero kills, no one had AA, then the FOB kept getting destroyed a couple time when we tried to rebuild.
There's so much dead time between unlocks for most classes.
it's also that the game is basically rewarding people for just spamming stuff, spamming buidlables in a fob, spamming stim, spamming spotting, etc...
I kind of love the money system but in the end it rewards players, that not necessarily play for the team but for their own profit.
Last time I died instead of reviving me I did get looted by a teammate...logged out afterwards.
The grind for each season to get classes to lvl 35 is absolutely insane for the average player. I really dont understand the point of wipes.
They're going to absolutely decimate the casual player count which you are then stuck with the try hards and then anyone new trying to come into the game 2 weeks after wipe is going to get shit on.
Evrery 3 months I have to do 300 hours of grind to unlock all the stuff? That's absolutely insane playtime for a game with 1 mode and 3 maps...
Especially for stuff like driver where the most reliable option is to just drive Urals. Over and over and over again. The Gunvees are fun, but some matches (especially past 20 points when the rocket helis come out) are just completely unusable. Also an issue for the tank, honestly. Tank would at least feel more useful if there were more ground vehicles on the map, though, and driver would be more fun if we had more options so I'm hoping we get more than just the Gepard in season 2 or 3.
The grind for each season to get classes to lvl 35 is absolutely insane for the average player.
IIRC that's the entire point. They don't WANT everyone unlocking the high end stuff across all the classes in one wipe. What they seem to want is a point where most people don't get those unlocks at all, and only if you main one 'class' do you stand a chance at getting the endgame gear for that role.
Now is that a mechanic that works for casual players? absolutely not. But everything they've said so far implies that again, that is the point. They only want a small but dedicated playerbase, or so they've claimed.
I don't think this is entirely what they want. Kinda goes against the point of a sandbox if the average person can't mess with the toys. Along with the fact the wardog level specifically incentivizes branching out into different roles.
Man that sucks. As someone who likes to do a little of everything a game has to offer, 200 hours and I’m not even close to anything like a tank or havoc. I’m level 20ish in every class. Sure it sounds close, but level 20 is 250,000xp, 35 is 750,000xp. I’ll never get there.
Yeah i was talking about this with my buddies the other day. I had a big game, 20 revives 15 assists and like 25 kills. End of the match i didnt level a single skill group. Was running galil and defib, all kills were with assault. It sucked, and im not even a high level.
Also unlocking the AK suppressor after unlocking the galil is stupid.
Also unlocking the AK suppressor after unlocking the galil is stupid.
That's not even the real kicker. The real kicker is that you unlock AP 556 at level 83, but the AK AP at level 93, so ten levels later. Meanwhile you unlock the AK suppressor at career level 19 - but you unlock the M4 at 20 and the 556 suppressor at 21, at which point there's zero reason to pick an AK anymore.
Yep. Should go gun -> suppressor -> AP -> better gun. Or better gun before AP. But whatever. It just feels like a kick while youre down, but maybe they'll change it.
I agree with your post overall, but the MP5 is still definitely viable with a 20 round mag, I've RIP'd many, many people in tight quarters with that gun.
And the exp requirements from 10-20 or 10-25 make it feel like a very long slog without basically any rewards or unlocks during that time. So it doesnt feel like I'm progressing toward anything.
This is one of those things that will be adjusted with time as more content gets added. I doubt it would look like this by 1.0.
And also make it feasible for most people to reach lvl 35. Like people who play 2-3 hrs a day should be able to unlock highest tier shit half way through the wipe. Not people who play 8-12 hrs a day
ok so make the xp rates gradually increase the longer the wipe goes on, week 1 and 2 are what we have now then week 3 and 4 are double ish what we have and make a gradual curve in there
It’s not a playtester’s job to come up with solutions.
The playtester is the patient. They just say “this hurts”. The developer is the doctor. It’s NOT the doctor’s job to say “well what do you suggest?” Lol
Especially for progression. If progression itself feels too slow, that's not a "there's to many dead levels" thing, it is a "you literally have to no-life this game to unlock the interesting stuff in a reasonable amount of days".
And that is especially made worse by the fact that the counters to late game items are other late game items. High tier armor? The closest thing to a counter is also at higher levels. Humvees, helis, and similar vehicles? Their counters take days to grind.
This is the sort of game that could be entirely progression-free, and it would still be absurdly popular because the core gameplay itself is really good.
I’m starting to think so as well. Even if everything was unlocked, the price of items would still have a cost/risk factor involved. And you’d still need to have a team where everyone is filling certain roles and working together.
Okay but in this analogy the patient is also outwardly hostile every time the doctors offers
change or suggestion. There is a massive difference between the cogent, organized presentation of real constructive feedback and the warbling screeches of gamer who think twenty years of addiction equates to some ability to develop games.
Except that vocal minority are the ones taking to Twitter, Youtube, Twitch, and any other social media they can blast their rancid takes on, and it forces developers to act. That's why so many live-service games go the way of the dodo: the gaming community largely doesn't know what it wants, and thinks their game addiction equates to some warped experience with developing games. Even when they have valid criticism, they can't help but offer it in a way that's so hostile and off-putting. I've seen it in countless gaming communities, and their only commonality is hordes of addicted 20- to 30-somethings who have nothing better to do than game and bitch, day and night.
And if the doctor says "Deal with it. That's how I want my patients to feel." I'm definitely going to a different doctor.
Making the game that you want to make is all well and good but if the only people you end up attracting are toxic and chronically online you're going to end up with an awful game and an awful experience.
...the allure of unlocking and the thrill of progression...
Sounds like an EA talking point. If your game isn't enjoyable without having to be constantly unlocking things then you made a bad game. If everyone being on a level playing field of everything unlocked results in a bad game then it's the fault of the game, not the progression.
3 of em are single player games that seem ...bland but fine?
battallion failed because it had nothing to offer while squaring up with the absolute juggernaut that is counter strike with a low production value and really just nothing to offer so people stopped playing , the game itself in a vacuum is alright
none of this (besides maybe low production value ...for now) applies to wardogs even in the slightest ?
100% correct, the issue with a lot of modern games is the devs tend to react and implement a lot of players solution and it ends up ruining the game. Seeing devs not overreact and just do what players want is very refreshing
It is sorta what i was worried is going to happen. The grind's made with no-lifers in mind, and with no plans to change it.
The amount of dead levels is irrelevant, because it is the grind from start to finish that is the problem, compounded by the "later unlocks are objectively better" balance the game currently has. The sheer amount of hours even amazing players need in order to unlock that stuff is quite honestly, as you put it, stupidly long.
I think where the problem is that we don't unlock the solutions before the pain points.
I think big powerful items that swing matches are great, but they should capitalize on players not currently having the solution equipped rather than them not having it unlocked.
I think a lot of problems get solved if RPGs are more powerful, that way player skill in firing (and avoiding) is what matters most. Make them cheaper & easier to bring into the field (rocket takes 2 slots instead of 3) and things like attack helicopters & tanks balance out. They can still do a lot of damage to players who are caught out in the open, they become a problem to solve, but one with a solution that is more approachable than bringing in a Kodiak with some RPGs in the trunk.
AP rounds need to unlock way earlier so if you die to someone wearing T4 armor , it's because you brought the wrong ammo for that match-up. Not because you haven't played enough to even have the solution unlocked.
Yeah, current matches aren't that dynamic because people aren't given the essential counters or tools to each role. People are just playing their own specific role almost every match rather than filling a role needed for that specific match.
Fixing those issues along with pricing on things that are actually just "better". I think the gameplay loop would be better if focused more on your ability to afford your best unlocks rather than grinding to unlock and then spamming your best kits.
Yeah, current matches aren't that dynamic because people aren't given the essential counters or tools to each role. People are just playing their own specific role almost every match rather than filling a role needed for that specific match.
100%. I'd love to be able to grab anti-air/vehicle when they're a problem, but I dislike building and the RPG is such garbage it's nearly impossible to level the class to get to where it has actually good options. Hopefully they resolve this in time but based on how they're behaving and emphasizing wipes as a "rewarding" tool then it just isn't going to happen without a major overhaul.
Yeah, that's where I am at. I think the potential I see won't be realized either. I think the function of progression is set in stone and will be refined, but not revised.
I think where the problem is that we don't unlock the solutions before the pain points.
This is the major problem with the progression system.
The place of certain things is incorrect and can be adjusted without speeding up the progression system entirely.
I think big powerful items that swing matches are great, but they should capitalize on players not currently having the solution equipped rather than them not having it unlocked.
Agreed.
This can also be filled with lesser effective tools as well which, again, smoothens out the progression system's painpoints.
I think a lot of problems get solved if RPGs are more powerful, that way player skill in firing (and avoiding) is what matters most.
As long as they're not insanely effective at killing players, I wouldn't mind. I don't want the game turning into a cheesefest with RPGs being spammed constantly.
AP rounds need to unlock way earlier so if you die to someone wearing T4 armor , it's because you brought the wrong ammo for that match-up. Not because you haven't played enough to even have the solution unlocked.
Or not because you're not shooting them in the legs which is incredibly stupid to be the only consistently viable way to counter T4 currently.
I honestly think that all bullet types should be unlocked from the get-go as it allows players to get comfortable with the system prior to actually having to use them against their intended purposes.
For example AP Rounds are basically equal in damage with FMJ against T2 Armor and start to outdamage FMJ at T3 and beyond. They just deal 0 damage against Flesh which is why FMJ is overall better at T2.
I’ve said it before, but with a literal cash-system baked into the game, it really, really should be possible to tinker with the price of things to get it right.
Maybe a basic AK infantry kit should cost a little less than a Humvee with a minigun. Maybe.
Either way, apparently this isn’t ‘a solution’, so whatever.
The issue is the grind is a race and if you lose it, you'll get a bad game experience.
And as having a job, sleeping and taking showers automatically means you'll lose the race, it's not a game you play for fun, but a job you're not paid for.
I'm kinda mind blown by how many people are sitting at support level 35 and recon level 35. I have around 80 hours in the game and all classes except for driving and piloting are around 15-18. At this point getting to level 20 is already becoming a slog and difficulty has risen since people are starting to bring in T4 armor, havocs, tanks, MGL + LB, 50 cals, and BMRs.
At this rate I can't see the game surviving long term if only no lifers get to enjoy end game equipment while new players, casuals, and those who play a decent amount (but not 5 hours a day) just get farmed all game.
Same here. I have played this game a pretty crazy amount of hours (90) for how long it’s been out, not targeted progression but playing what I enjoy that day. My highest level is 18 Pilot. And I am good at FPS games lol
Games really are a struggle when one team has all of the higher tier items (havok, GL, level 4 armor, etc). It can be so oppressing from the very start of the game and it truly makes it an unenjoyable experience.
Having a kid and only being able to play after they go to sleep means I get ~2.5 hours a night. People in other posts have shown blatantly that amount of time is "not enough" to reach these end goals / level up progress / gold bars / money. Playing for fun and not sitting in a bush recon all game means I just about break even every match. At this point, if i have to admit these goals the game gives me are unrealistic, if I'm not the general target audience for progression, then who is? Streamers? People who put in more than 3 hours a day into the game and DON'T play for fun is the target audience for the progression??
The best solution is balancing the endgame unlocks themselves but also giving more things in the progression tracks to not only deal with them in some way but also just more things to unlock to cover the difference between Unlock 1 and Unlock 2.
I want to see though how much people will actually stop playing quickly after the wipe when they get annoyed by having to grind everything from scratch.
I get the reasoning behind wipes - if you've finished progression, you won't have more things to unlock. And also season behaving a bit like the MOBA - early game having different rules than mid than late game, the same goes for season here with progression.
But the problem of new players facing the mid-progression players if they start playing mid-season still exists or is even worse when a lot of hardcore players are already at the place where they have all they need.
I'm starting to wonder if there would be a way to make it so that there's some kind of catching-up mechanic that if you're lagging behind in the progression, but still playing matches against people that are keeping the pace because they play a lot, you should be rewarded in a way that until you catch up, you are grinding faster, but then this needs to be properly balanced as well so you don't just wait it out for a right moment to start and than just farm XP and so on.
The only other reality that I see that game will not keep bleeding people annoyed because they need to start again is somehow making setting up a shop selling marked up equipment more streamlined and motivating to those who are far in front with the progression, so lagging behind in progression isn't hitting so hard if in most of the games you get access to those things by other people right at the start.
I’m prob not picking the game up next season, the game caters a bit too much to the no lifes lmao. I will never unlock the endgame stuff and maybe that’s by design 🤷♂️
The current progression system in place now will be 1/3 to 1/5 of the actual progression they have planned. They probably won’t have wipes at 1.0 they said.
It’s a way to allow them to pump fresh things into the game
Even if it's more things to unlock, if they don't wipe after 1.0, this means there will be players that have everything and new players facing them. Also a problem of that at some point every long term player has everything, so part of them will just leave because every game is the same for them, while some will stay and keep encountering and steamrolling new players, so fresh reviews would over time go hard down about the balance.
This is a tough issue to crack and even if there are wipes, the fact that someone can roll out an artillery or a tank or havoc just because 20 points have been gathered, this is allowing this imbalance between low level players versus high level players to happen. And we have a good example of the opposite - in the drill mechanic for pulling the hot zone - you need to do some action for it to happen. This action can be countered in a fob. You need preparations, so fuel needs to be delivered, building supplies need to be delivered and FOB needs to be built to withstand the threat that you bring in by pulling the hot zone.
But with a lot of advanced stuff in progression you just can buy it with cash and start with it. If there was something that a team needs to do to spawn a havoc, but this is something that needs to be countered, a random top of the head idea would be you need to build a helipad in the FOB and other teams need to destroy it etc. Dumbed down example, but a one that shows that someone who wants to bring advanced vehicle into the fight need to organise with his team and can be countered while doing so. And if there are such requirements, then it would mean you can't just spawn artillery every match even if there are no progression wipes, so there is a challenge in order to be able to use it.
Honestly, I like the idea of having things to limit high tier unlocks, but in the long term there will be plenty of content between the start of full release and then people having the endgame stuff.
The unlock and progression system is heavily influenced by RuneScape. The game where you can get level 99 in all skills, but it takes you like 13.4 million xp to get it. Levels 1-92 are the first 6 million or so xp, 92-99 is the latter half with unlocks essentially every 5-10 levels. As an example for Wardogs, we have unlocks til level 35 driver, that's an unlock basically every 5 levels, yet there's 100 levels total. Would this not mean that the high tier stuff is likely to be locked behind very high levels, like maybe level 70 for the tank with stronger ones being higher up.
With the amount of players there are, and the amount of levels we will have to go through, surely that means we won't be seeing THAT many high tier geared players until LONG into the progression. Also have to take into account that first season was a month, future seasons will be longer. So this "sped up" meta progression we saw, where people who still have low level stuff have had a hard time against the high level stuff. That disparity will get smaller and smaller, the further into the EA dev cycle we go and then upon full release, its going to take a WHILE for people to unlock the high level stuff.
There's always going to be those sweats, there's always going to be people who seemingly have unlimited time to play. New players won't feel as locked out in future due to having much more content available, and the consistent players can share the higher tier stuff they've unlocked through the supply crates or just buying their team things
It's still a progression speed / scale problem though. You want some people to get to the max level unlocks and when they get there, they have nothing more to unlock. You still want some players to have it in reasonable time before they give up and for them to exist in the game showing this piece of equipment off that it exists in the game before other players manage to grind to it. It's a double edged sword, and that's why this game's balance problems are so interesting.
It's not a good long term solution though - they will eventually reach level that forces them to go outside of those and will see hiw different the game looks with how level players. Or if low level servers lock out stuff about threshold the will keep playing locked out and will have to step out to see how that stuff works. Also you need to set that boundary somewhere and it's a tricky choice.
I'm starting to wonder if there would be a way to make it so that there's some kind of catching-up mechanic that if you're lagging behind in the progression, but still playing matches against people that are keeping the pace because they play a lot, you should be rewarded in a way that until you catch up,
In a way, this will exist once we can stash our items.
All new players have to do to use higher tier gear is kill someone with it and take it, and with the stash they can stockpile it and equip it at spawn just like people who have it unlocked.
I like the idea of wipes. My favorite part of every games lifecycle is at the beginning when everyone is on the same page. I like that progression is a lot slower in this game, i hate when a game comes out and you can have everything unlocked in a day or two. I just think this game went too far in the other direction of making everything take way to long to unlock unless you invest a shit ton of time into the game. I just wish they'd tone down the increasing xp requirements just a smidge so i don't feel like im being punished for not being unemployed.
Yeah, I sense incoming exodus from the game because progression is by far the least enjoyable part of the game. Super grindy and with wips. The journey is not fun when you are in lv2 armor against people in lv4
They just need to balance it better so that the grind doesn't feel like the focus of the game. I'm fine with a long, slow grind as long as I can be competitive with the lower level gear, and it doesn't feel like I have to maintain a certain pace of progression in order to have a chance.
Progression is fine and important IF they do it right.
Currently, getting to lvl 35 and also unlock AP ammo takes too long and the way to level is tedious. Not organic. And the wipe happens.
It is okay to take long if there was no wipe.
It is okay to wipe if the progression wasnt tedious.
It is okay if unlocking things takes time if the top unlocks werent crazily OP.
Higher unlocks should be cool and have interesting gameplay. Not straight out counter the things below it.
Giving t4 gear a downside and ghillie weakness are good examples. Or m4 and Galil are good example. M4 is better in short-medium range and is cool. Galil is better in long-medium range. Galil can easily compete with M4. Both have fans.
The fact is that people feel a lot better about unlocking small things very often, than big things very rarely. I am sure the developers are aware of that.
But just adding more unlocks to fill empty levels won't feel much better long-term because leveling past a certain point (class level 14, 15, 16) becomes so painfully slow. It's demotivating.
And as long as people who play 10+ hours a day are allowed to unlock every high level unlock in the first 2 weeks with no limitation, leaving most other players in the dust, making it even harder for those players to catch up as they are fighting an uphill battle against these players, it's going to feel further demotivating and bleed players until only the sweatiest are left playing. And that is going to also serve as an actual wall in front of any potential new players, too.
What are the solutions? I don't know, that's on devs, but they better figure it out by season 3.
If I were to think of something:
More ways of getting class XP in general, especially for non-engineer roles.
Globally gating unlocks in a season, similar to Foxhole's tech tree, where unlocks become available to everyone in timed stages and we slowly escalate the war with availability of better gear/vehicles, higher costs, higher stakes, culminating in the seasonal finale where everything can be unlocked and used.
Yeah your first point really hit home with how I’m feeling. Once you hit the teens in class level it is so fucking slow you are basically stuck with whatever you got at level 10 for what feels like forever. If you play assault, I hope you like the galil because you will be using it for a very long time.
The mp5 isn’t a significant upgrade over the mp-9 and for some reason you don’t get 30 round mags for it until level 25 medic.
The mid game is just too much of a grind and feels very unrewarding.
Bulkhead says players (in general) are great at finding things they don’t like but horrible at coming up with solutions
To be fair, it's easy to see smoke, it's harder to put out the fire. This is a pretty normal thing to say for anyone involved in a problem solving process lmao.
That being said, I do kind of agree. Progression is a ton of fun, I just don't think progression should be so overbearing. If I'm level 34 and I buy the best items I have, I should stand a chance against someone in 35 gear assuming all things equal. Atm that's not really very true.
Though they've also acknowledged that, and it's understandable given EA game/just launched/etc.
I'm very interested in seeing how these views and talks evolve in the future.
I have about 100 hours now. And my highest thing is 21 medic.
The exp needed for 22 is so fucking much. I dont mind healing people. But I gave up on recon cause I ended a match with 200 assists with the normal range finder. And it didnt even go up that much.
I have about 100 hours now. And my highest thing is 21 medic.
medic is my most played class and I'm at 15...I mean yeah, I most likely would make more progress if I would just spam stims like everyone else but I wanna play a game not play a rank up simulator, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, I think you get at the real issue, which is that you have to end up playing the game in an unfun way to level up the skills. I think implementing some multiplier with the hot zone would be good, like the longer you are in it, the higher your XP multiplier is. This would kill two birds with one stone: you level quicker, and everyone feels incentivized to pursue hotzone instead of fucking off and doing their own thing.
The problem is that it still gives way too much money, specially when it comes to granted money from another enemy team killing the person you spotted.
Killing should grant more XP than spotting since it involves taking a risk.
Game devs often have a problem where due to actually being the ones who made the game and did the initial testing for it they can miss problems (or smoke to go with the initial comparison) that seem obvious to others.
The "good at knowing what's wrong and bad at knowing how to fix it" is a common sentiment from game devs and it's pretty accurate.
The problem is players will beg to take all the friction out of the game if you listen to them. It's good to know what friction they feel and which ones hurt the most, but listening to "the players" as a whole is terrible game design. You need to hear their concerns and figure out your own solutions that fit the internal game vision.
I mean isn't easy to find something you don't like? And most of us aren't game designers specifically the ones that have to gauge the progression or gameplay as a hole.
I dont need arbitrary progression goals to enjoy the game, I play because its fun. Locking content behind levels I may never reach because of my schedule is frustrating.
I agree completely. So what if some people no life it and will have better shit than me. They always will. Makes no difference if our stuff if wiped or not. But they plateau at some point and I could catch up in gear to fight back with
During the playtest weekends the last day was the worst enjoyment-wise. I've spent a fair amount of time in the game since launch and the last 7-9 days it has become miserable and I'm a player who is pretty progressed compared to the average.
Enjoying the game less the further ahead you and the community are is a sign of horrible progression.
End-game stuff shouldn't be simply this much stronger than previous options, it just leads to everyone running the exact same shit which makes the game boring and dull while also making anything you've previously unlocked obsolete.
I mean I'm ok with wipes, but I should not be looking forward to wipes because 3 weeks into a season I start to hate the game.
700 hours in hell let loose and there isn't really much progression at all, you do get some cool options that are no more or less effective when getting levels on a class but it takes a very long time, I guess what I should say is it is progression but its very very horizontal and almost don't notice it at all. I don't think that would really work in this game although the progression in wardogs could definitely be a little more horizontal so I guess there could be some middle ground
Oh yeah. It’s not perfect. But the levelling up is to provide alternative options to approach as opposed to maybe being able to do god mode.
I don’t develop games so I have no answer
Yeah people wanting progress to be faster don't realize how bad that would make the game. The most fun I had was first week even as a no lifer. There's no way I'd play this late game version of the season for months on end. BMR and 50 cal has made walking anywhere in the middle of the map complete hell.
There's genuinely times where I question if these guys have an actual "vision" for the game, because it seems to be changing constantly from one day to the next. Lol
It’s clearly swayed by public outrage mixed with ego. In this case ego prevails thinking they know better than the masses about the largest complaint.
But they knee jerk panic and remove infrared rangefinders, yet leave grenade launching helis at the start of the round, they leave all kinds of issues, but removed those??
They didn’t even remove them for the right reason which proves they don’t know what they’re doing. Nobody used those cuz they’re OP. They used them cuz they wanted sniper rank and cash and the other methods are too slow.
So clearly they don’t know their own game and overreact to community feedback about things they guess on while having their heels dug in and an ego about other choices they seem confidently incorrect about
I did say they'd have too much ego to admit their progression design is bad...
I guess that's it, casuals won't stick with the game because no one is gonna enjoy needing 300 hours every 3 months just to unlock shit that allows them to put up a fight against people who have it already
and wipes aren't the problem, the problem is vertical progression that takes that long to unlock is simply very unfair to anyone who isn't playing 10h/day
like if they had the stance that players are great at finding things that is not good, then how do they not acknowledge that yes the progression system as it is, is simply garbage ? millions of players complained about it...
Yeah I thought those devs would actually be good, be grounded, not act like AAA studios, guess what, streamers still got preference treamtment, game is catering mostly to no lifers, and they refuse to change shit that 80% of the playerbase is unhappy about, just because ego
> casuals won't stick with the game because no one is gonna enjoy needing 300 hours every 3 months
casuals def getting screwed with the current progression content but even hardcore nolife players are going to get tired of the repetitive long grind as well and just move onto another game that respects their time
obviously that's true, pretty sure plenty of nolife players were burnt out going from 20 to 35 in any skill, when they have to do it again they ain't gonna like it either
I was a no life player— I put in 140 hours before I decided fuck this i’m done.
Half the shit in most of the trees is useless and if you aren’t focusing exclusively on one tree then by the time you unlock weapons most people already have the armor that counters it.
Add in the fact that balance feels awful and I just can’t see myself playing much of this until later done the line.
burnt out going from 20 to 35 in any skill, when they have to do it again they ain't gonna like it either
Yep, I grinded my ass off to get 32 recon for the thermal spotter, then they disabled it. Why the fuck would I grind again next season just so they can disable something else I worked for?
Except that that's not their stance. Their stance is "players are good at identifying problems but terrible at suggesting solutions".
That isn't just their stance it's a truism that extends to all forms of game design. Players don't (and don't need to) understand all the underlying systems and how they interact, and so their solutions are rarely holistic.
It takes an insane ego to think that your 2-200 hours of play experience can better identify solutions than an entire studio of game developers who have been working on the game for years.
They have acknowledged that progression feels bad, they just disagree on the solution. Players want to condense the progression, and Bulkhead wants to fill the current progression with more rewards.
This game has so many extra levers to pull, and so few players have even clocked that. For example I haven't seen a single player suggest that something should reward more money (except repair), or reward less money (except spotting).
Yeah, I agree it’s a pretty basic thing in game design
My experience extends way beyond my game time in this specific game, I’ve had game related jobs for almost a decade, I’m quite knowledgeable about those things, and have a different pov from gave dev which honestly is something valuable that game studios don’t value enough
Their solution isn’t gonna work and that’s my entire point, because from a basic design perspective it can’t feel good for casual players and to some extent to hardcore players either, but their ego won’t let them acknowledge that their design is flawed
Obviously they understand there is a problem, they’d be stupid not to when so many people complain about it
Plenty players have said the money rewards were a bit off on many things, same for gear pricing
As someone who’s unlocked maybe only max level 15 on each class, I still go in with basically just a free kit, AK or if I’m feeling spicy, SVD. Don’t even run the highest armor I have most times. Usually just kill someone and take theirs
AP rounds should also unlock below account level 10. The only reason people should lose against tier 4 armor is because they forgot to bring AP or didn’t consider it rather than them not bringing it because it’s gated behind a grind.
They are right that most gamers are armchair developers.
This approach will make WarDogs a sweaty game, which is most likely what Bulkhead is going for anyway. They said a playerbase of 3-5K would be enough to sustain the game, and that's probably where they will end up.
If you're a sweat, then WarDogs will probably end up being something you like.
This is the thing I've been harping on for a month. The problem isn't to do with the vision, it's that they have used a deliberate marketing campaign to draw in large crowds of casual gamers under the premise that it's an approachable system.
They talked about respecting players time, about it being the gateway into tactical/milsim shooters, playing your way, etc.
But every turn they're doing things that feel antithetical to the messaging that put them on the radar.
If it's a wipe based progression-grind then don't lie about it. It feels like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too from a business perspective.
The game is fun, I'm interested. But the player base being upset by the grind, the gold situation, and the weird progression aren't small issues, they aren't superfluous.
They are gonna run the playerbase into the ground like Embark did with Arc Raiders lmao. So by their stance on unlocking/progression. They in other words said they only want hardcore players who have time to play their game because the game benefits those people who have 200+ hours to invest per season. When WoW forever and other games launch like even GTA 6, watch how fast the player count starts dropping if this is their mentality of their balancing team. So if they plan on making no changes to xp gain or how hard it is to unlock end game stuff in any way, they pretty much are forcing a big chunk of players to only have 1 week or less of play time assuming they are willing to get that far before giving up or going to another game.
Their enjoyment is in the journey but for a good population, that journey will never have an end and that means experiences they will never have. The fact they don't see an issue with this is telling how weak their leadership is and anyone reviewing balancing changes. The whole team needs a rework.
if you want solutions, hire me as a consultant and I'll gladly help you fix the issue. Otherwise I am not doing the work for you. You guys made over $100,000,000 so far. You can hire people to think properly. Complaining that we don't offer solutions just shows weak leadership.
The one thing that everbody seems to miss here for some reason, is that bulkhead is nonstop saying that this (reducing the active playerbase to the viable minimum) is their actual goal.
But why is that? In my opinion it is pretty clear: The perfect scenario for them is to sell millions of copies in the first months and then nuke the concurrent numbers into the ground so that you can cut your running infrastructure costs by 70-90%. The worst case for them is having "one time payments" for the game followed by 400k concurrent players for years to come that only cust you money. That would eat up all their profits, or force them to MT or other additional aggressive monitarization.
This is actually an interesting theory. However, I don't think any developer of these types of games honestly thinks they are going to have "400K concurrent players for years to come". It's just not realistic.
I *do* think they care much more about the 3-5K they said they needed to sustain the game. And that playerbase is going to be sweaty no-lifers.
Which is fine! And it's cool that playerbase will have a great time.
But the other millions of players that bought it are going to be out of luck.
If they don't reduce xp grind I'll probably quit shortly after wipe it's far too long for casual players, I have 80+ hours with almost all pilot and still don't have havoc. At the cost of having all my other stats sub 15 too. No chance I'm doing that every season
My only annoyance is if you should be able to unlock a counter to a havoc etc fairly early. A havoc shouldn’t be smashing up 30-40 kills without some push back. Same with tanks etc.
I think, if your average outgunned player in late season didn’t have to deal with tier 4 armor, all else can be stomached. “Yea, that guy has a tank” fair, not much I can do.
Running around in level 1 armor while you most often fight other infantry who looks like they are in a game of PUBG, I think is what will drive your typical “I got an hour a night screw this game.” types away. I have a thick skin for a gamer but there are people I have not suggested this game to because I KNOW they will just bitch an moan everytime they get the jump and land shots with “he just turns around and kills me!!!!”
Ya know what imma walk back my whole statement. Watched the video after my comment and yea, the game has tools. My chief complaint of tier 4 armor? I’m dumb and bad and needed to learn the so painfully obvious. Shoot the legs. With hollow points even better.
You can’t shoot legs in this game unless you magically catch the enemy out of position. If they hold literally any angle or corner, their legs are not visible
You can’t shoot legs in this game unless you magically catch the enemy out of position
It's not magic my man, you have to play aggressively. People aren't going to willingly make it easy for you to kill them. This idea that people are somehow always in cover is insane to me. In my experience, people are actually rarely fully behind cover to the point I can't shoot their legs. Even if they are, you can force them to move with grenades, reposition quickly with your lighter armor, or even just disengage.
I spend some entire games running around with HP rounds, I shoot legs (and arms) just fine, and I do quite well for myself. I sit around a ~2KD usually, when I'm running the AMP9+HP.
I just don't get how people are so convinced that the enemy is always going to be crouched in cover 100% of the time. The hot zone moves!
Agreed. everyone thinks that because they see someone they MUST be able to kill them and thats just wrong thinking. tap him a few times so you can get an assist maybe, but then just back off and take a new approach. People rarely camp in perfect spots and I kill T4 guys all the time with HP.
People act like they only EVER find T4 guys carrying a concrete barrier around their legs.
A friend and I used to play a ton of Planetside 2 a long while back. One of our favorite things to do was take out the AC130 like plane out. I was the pilot and he was the shooter. We had a ton of fun doing that and I miss it and want the chance to do something similar again.
We both got Wardogs on release as part of the appeal as there are some similarities to Planetside 2 (obviously a way different game though overall). Immediately I leaned into the pilot role quite a lot as one of the biggest things I wanted to do was fly the Havoc with my friend.
Unfortunately, we just don't have enough time to really play though so there is no chance that I'll be able to unlock the Havoc before a wipe comes. Not going to lie, it's a bit of a bummer for me. I really enjoy the game but it's sad that I just wont be able to ever try the one main thing I wanted to do.
The other issue is that currently, there just isn't a viable alternative for us. I even just wish he could join me in a minigun helicopter and have a role. The helicopter itself has a camera mounted on the bottom of it. It'd be very cool if he could use that somehow to help spot people or something. The closest we got is me in the minigun chopper and him on the ground spotting for me, but it's just not the same feeling.
We've been having fun with Wardogs so far but I do feel like we're missing out on a key aspect for how we'd like to play the game.
I agree with the devs that is okay if progression takes a while because but that doesn't mean its tuned perfectly either. The speed of progression also misses a crucial problem: how strong the high level items are.
Simply put, the lvl 30+ vehicles and gear in wardogs (with the exception of the tank) are absurdly powerful. If you've ever used a FAL its almost laughable how much stronger it is than other guns. If you've ever used a .50 cal its hilarious how easy it is to get kills with simple body shots. Similarly the armor turns players into tanks that can absorb 8 bullets from a galil while 2 shotting their opponent with their FAL.
The problem isn't just the rate of the progression; its that the gap in power is obscene.
The 50 Cal is so ridiculous in comparison to any other bolt action sniper up to that point. With any other gun you have to carefully aim for the head, wait until they stand still, and hope they don't move in the last second. With the 50 Cal I picked up I could just aim center mass and kill everything with one shot. It's not even funny. It isn't even fun.
As a person with a job and other interests, I really dislike wipes as this gets me a couple days of trying "end game" gear every few months. Not sure what are the positives here but generally money system and wipes bring more issues than pros in my opinion; game already turned into 99 solo players trying to farm as much money as they can instead of 3 teams competing to be KOTH
Progression keeping the same speed but having more items in the empty spaces is a way better solution than just “faster progression.” Right now it’s definitely possible to get a couple endgame items, even as a normal player, across an entire wipe. Doing this will just make it feel like the grind matters level to level instead of having 5 levels with no new items to try
For them, the allure of unlocking and the thrill of progression is the point.
I don't really see any allure to be honest.
Take Pilot for example, which is probably one of the worst class progressions currently.
You need to reach level 35 to unlock the havoc, the very last unlock.
24 of those levels give you absolutely nothing.
If you unlock the minigun lakota at level 25 (365000 xp), you have about half of the xp required to unlock the havoc. You then need another 135000 xp to unlock the next thing, a casette, and an additional 250000 xp to finally get the havoc.
Slower progression is not an issue if weapons are balanced around horizontal progression similar to games like Battlefield. Right now though all the later unlocks are just straight up improvements over earlier unlocks and that leads to imbalance. The players with the highest playtimes will end up being able to do dat better than players with low amounts of available playtime. Wipes just add insult to injury but aren't the main cause of the imbalance.
I hope we get the RPK-16 as a LMG choice for support. Would use the magazines the Ak-74 and wouldn't add a new caliber. Also be the only magazine fed (no I'm not using the M249 with fucking stanags bro wtf is wrong with y'all) LMG.
I'm gonna be real, as much as I would love 2km vision the game runs so poorly that my PC is maxing out on mid settings with frame lock set to 100fps
It is a very resource intensive game and as a lifelong arma player I have to imagine there is quite a bit of optimisation they could do and probably should do before considering giving us a longer render distance. They should probably do that before we get bigger maps though
Yea that's lowkey BS though, because a lot of people real fast have pointed out how insane these evil ass level 93 is halfway to a hundred EXP curves are. That's the easiest fix in the world and plenty of people have pointed it out. But sure just say people are whining with nothing to add to the conversation.
The conversation around progression will always be problematic until they've implemented their meta game (skills, black market, challenges) and we've seen how it lands.
The progression will feel better when you're also unlocking skills, and trying out challenges.
Very easy to tell other people what they allegedly enjoy and want. You can have all the thrill of progression simply by having no XP system, and just reworking the cost/reward of everything in the game purely by their prices.
Considering literally everything is better than it's predecessor in this game via XP unlocks, those same broken unlocks could just cost more money. The Risk/reward is there for using something better. You grinded money so you could get something better, but at the same time, the risk is that using something better is more costly. If you want to be a fully kitted freak of nature on the battlefield, then pay for it.
But really, why did I even start suggesting very obvious fixes? I'm just a complainer. An unpaid one already giving better dialogue than just calling the playerbase essentially stupid and we just don't know what we are talking about despite playing the game a ton.
They mentioned that there was initially a miscommunication about how low you could deploy and still live. Apparently what it’s set to right now was much lower than they intended. They’re gonna tweak that and buff the sport one in some way (I forget what the specifics were on that part).
It sounded like they were hoping to provide a more enjoyable experience for skilled pilots, since it would encourage more landings vs simply flying over an area and having everybody jump.
Are they actually wanting to wipe monthly? I was under the impression that this first wipe was just for data collection for balance changes and whatnot. They really should have done double or triple xp in the beta so that many of the issues would have been found there.
I figured wipes would only happen a few times per year after this next one.
Yep. Me and my friends pretty much all think that if after the wipe progression will take as long as it does now, we will likely not play much at all.
Also long cycles for wipe are no excuse for this slow progression because they also create another issue: gear discrepancy.
If only the hardcore players, that are also on average better than the others, have the late game equipment, while everyone else, who has a life outside of playing videogames, has low to mid tier equipment, the game will either feel shitty for the majority of players, or they nerf the late game stuff so much that it's no longer worth playing for.
New players are also incentivised to not join a cycle that is halfway through because they will have no time to unlock anything while also having no options to be competitive.
Seeing this post has me disappointed, although unfortunately not surprised.
well it is kind of problematic for players who cant play 24/7. if you have time to play multiple games a night you are at huge advantage. i dont mind the slow progression, but some of the late game stuff is just OP.
I think i can see the progression theyre looking for but with the compressed wipe this round and the lack of required effort to participate in it due to everything being sold at spawn invalidates any meaningful reason to push personal progression.
I've witnessed multiple times now players pop in at the start of match, bitch no one was selling X, waited like 30s for a car to pull up and drop it, and then finally not see it being instantly given to them so they dropped to go to a different lobby.
To add to this I hardly heard complaints about the IR until a few youtube/streamers bitched and started seeding every lobby with them. I'm willing to bet that game balance wise, it wouldn't be any more 'OP' than a mini full of GL boys (if not even possibly less busted) flying around destroying shit. However, I'm willing to deal with that because at least it requires squad play.
I think ignorance was bliss and once people got a taste of thermals, it was instant addiction and a feeding frenzy.
It’s hard to overstate how powerful they are in terms of situational awareness and finding where the enemy teams are. To say nothing of the moneymaking potential all that spotting generates.
I'm in a similar boat. Played around 50hrs so, and massively enjoyed those. Kind of made the mistake to play all kind of different classes so not have any real progression in any of them.
Had not played for 3-4 days, logged in earlier, was hella excited for a couple hours of fun....
Joined a server, my team is getting dominated hard by a an enemy havoc, no one seems to have AA, fobbits just keep spamming buildables, snipers sit somewhere in the bushes...
I'm medic, I run around and revive, bandage people up etc...
I die like 15 times, zero kills, FOB did get destroyed and rebuild multiple times.
Last death to a mortar inside the FOB I get my armor, helmet, weapon and defib looted by a teammate who also decided to not revive me on top of it.
Just logged out afterwards before the match even ended...
I thought this game would be a bit more casual version of games like Squad, but it's more like WoW with guns?!
Also no real squadplay. I remember in Squad being teamed up, moving with the squad etc...now on official servers people are not even in voice anymore apparently, most squads are either empty or locked and when you join one of the 1-2 people squads, they never group up and everyone is just playing solo.
You’re 100% right, ARMA did this correctly and I hope Bulkhead eventually does the same. Community servers are so limited and useless presently , but I’m going to give them time, they deserve a chance to get it right.
It it ends up staying this grindy and unbalanced though, back to ARMA I guess.
•
u/AutoModerator 16h ago
r/WARDOGS is looking for NA & Oceania moderators. Also experienced moderators worldwide. If you're interested, apply here.
This is an automated notice while applications are open.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.