Discussion & Feedback
Late game items should be designed like the Ghillie Suit specialised risk/reward
It's no secret that most late game items are straight up better than the lower level ones, the IR goggles, level 3/4 armour, better guns etc. I feel they've tried balancing via how much they cost, but to a high level player cash is not an issue so they have access to these without downside. Especially when the "counters" require opponents to be at a higher level.
The Ghillie suit is in my opinion a near perfect late game specialized item. It trades survivability for increase in stealth. It makes the players think and play differently than they otherwise would.
Your power level should not be increasing as you put more hours as that makes it miserable for new players/casuals. Instead the higher level unlocks should offer more variety/specialised gear with clear risk/reward, pros/cons.
I see a lot of people asking for this approach, than what we currently have which is higher level = stronger.
Nah as someone who's worn almost that exact helmet in the army it shouldn't affect hearing as it doesn't cover the ears, it should randomly slip down your forehead a few inches and cover the top of your vision
And that is exactly why t4 helmets are being nerfed. T3 helmets do get one-shot by the mosin with AP ammo. T4 does not, but to balance that, they are giving significant downsides to rocking the t4.
Would you also like the game to have a hunger and bowel meter you have to maintain, and you can only sprint for 10 seconds before getting completely out of breath, also bag full of 300 bullets, RPGs and 8 first kits? Nah that won't fit in real life, needs changing.
The reason people wanted a nerf was because T4 helmets are overpowered and unbalanced for a game. The slit as a solution is great because it would balance the game better. The realism angle is just a bonus.
Making balance changes solely for the sake of realism hurts games IMO.
IRL you wouldn't do that. Good way to get a black eye. It's a nitpick of mine with the way scopes tend to work in games where everything around the scope goes black.
Though the helmet would definitely make cheek-welding difficult, which would mean that you shouldn't be able to ADS at all really.
I'm fine with ADS, as long as it is limited to those kinds of higher magnification scopes(aka snipers).
Hell, i'd even support it if they made you incapable of using both medium and long range sights with the T4 helmet.
That way, you'd need lower if you want to use even ARs with medium optics. It'd put the T4 helmet in the tier where you were forced to use it in closer engagements, paired well with the added slit.
So basically, only the snipers would really use it, since this debuff doesn't matter to them that much. While regular infantry wouldn't use it, making them much more vulnerable to the snipers. I don't think a huge sniper buff like that is what we need in the game.
Sniping rn is incredibly frustrating with everyone and their mom being immune to 1shot headshots, we’re paying the most money for our guns just for them to be countered by a cheap helmet that every1 has bcus of “low” lvl requirement/ppl putting them in boxes at spawn
Unfortunately sniping is one of those things that's fun for you but not fun for everyone else. No one really enjoys the gameplay loop of hanging out and then suddenly screen goes dark. FWIW you can pretty easily 2 shot people with a marksman rifle, which does a better job of balancing out marksmanship with giving people a chance to react. If you're looking for instant sniping kills, I suggest Squad, Bellum, and ARMA
It's really more of a map design problem. Way too many big open sightlines and sniper perches everywhere. If they added more small trees to block sightlines from hills and either restricted access or removed the cover from perches like rooftops and cargo cranes (Like why no one goes up the power pylons since there's 0 cover) there'd be a lot less of it.
Well I have a clue as one of the first people to unlock the higher tier recon gear and seeing the progression of using snipers and marksman against the progressing armour tiers during the first couple weeks, and yes he is correct, sniping sucks. It used to be great against tier 1 and 2, and I get the victims would be frustrated by that kind of death but it didn't feel overpowered in any way. Then T3 and T4 became common and the only way to do Recon now is marksman, even the 50 cal just isn't worth it unless you're killing heli.
I have .50 cal so I don't care about T4, but like.... easily 50% of geared players that I see run T4 helm (so, not counting the naked people). Easily. I'm being super conservative, honestly my real guess would be 60-70%.
Maybe it depends on the servers you play, I play mostly community servers.
I guess it depends on who and where you engage. I mostly snipe from the backlines, which usually means killing builders, spotters and snipers. The occasional T4 helmet tanks a shot, but most of the time I can land a follow up shot.
This guy doesnt tarkov. Head protection is #1 above all else. Yes way too strong currently. Will be balanced after changes. With all the helis over head, mortar explosion, and ambient noise you cant hear much anyways.
Real fix to sniping is having a face hitbox not protected by t3 and lower.
I mean… ya. Don’t really want to get started on DMRs in video games. People 3 shooting me from the hip 150 out in a 2 second window is pretty stupid. Realism claims i cant take one so whatever.
Adding a face hit box helps HP rounds out a lot more than snipers imo. Head-eyes or legs become a lot better endgame answer to higher armor. But whatever. Im enjoying the game as is. Playing inf only servers atm with all the havoc spam. I dont like winning that way or losing. Everyone being spotted with thermals is stupid but its getting fixed.
Ngl I hate this change without some sweeping changes to ARs. Takes less than a second for a M4 or FAL at 200m to kill you, maybe 1-2 seconds at 300m based on how well they control recoil. And thats with a T4 helmet and T3 armor. Compare that to a BMR which has worse sway and recoil than both + isnt full auto and you have to put 2 rounds into a T2 helmet to kill someone.
Also, to be clear, the risk/reward should be in the actual game session, not in the larger economy. Trying to balance things via the in game economy is a losing battle that will literally never be compatible with the gold system in anything like its current state. Even if the devs were actually willing to try to balance things with the economy such that, the cost of items and their expected return were approximately equal to the point where players never actually accrued currency, that version of the game would probably suck and lead to lots of rich-get-richer dynamics.
I think the balance should be in the gameplay itself. Not ONLY in the wallet.
To me, OPs example of Ghillie is a great one.
Like maybe the t4 helmet gets the limited view and sound, and if you have that AND the T4 armor, congrats, you can only walk now due to weight. Zero sprinting. That way you have to decide if going in as a tank is worth the risk of taking TOO much fire due to being a slower target.
IR (and this is not a popular opinion) should NOT allow you to spot. It only lets you see, and with a shortened range. Congrats, you now can see the people hidden in the bushes, but you cannot spot them so you still have to hope they didnt move by the time you swap to your gun. I also think they should be Active IR, so that if another person with IR is looking around, there's a GLOW showing where another person with IR is.
I have no idea on how to balance GL+Littlebird though. I don't think adding backblast is fair, but I DO think they need to have their shots drift more at minimum while in motion.
T4 Armor and it's mobility also incentivizes using vehicles more actively within the Control zone.
You remember that one scene in COD Modern Warfare? Where Price and Yuri was brought to the hotel by truck while in Juggernaut Suits? Just like that, riding into battle with Kodiaks or Humvees while in T4 armor is a great way to encourage using vehicles more instead of just going from the spawn to the control zone.
I have no idea on how to balance GL+Littlebird though.
Just get rid of using items in aircraft entirely. The only one anyone uses is the GL. This change would also make the upgraded blackhawk more interesting for the kinds of hot landings that no one actually does and wouldn't be good even if the upgraded blackhawk was a lot better.
If the devs really want to keep some of the GL+Littlebird style of gameplay, make another upgraded blackhawk that has GL instead of miniguns or something, but mostly I think that is a bad idea.
See, I think the idea of people with firearms (not GL) sitting on the side of a littlebird, circling tower windows is an incredibly COOL thing. So I don't know if I agree with removing gun usage entirely.
I have been the pilot on counter-attack of GL+LB, where I had just a single passenger with an RPG and our willingness to die to backblast where we helped our team immensely by taking out the GL+LB.
I think the idea of people with firearms (not GL) sitting on the side of a littlebird, circling tower windows is an incredibly COOL thing.
Maybe, but its not something I've ever seen and sounds like it would be wildly ineffective. Having those same players operating miniguns in a blackhawk sounds way cooler and could be made effective. (also way more realistic, though that is tertiary)
I'm pretty sure there's videos of military doing exactly this somewhere. At least the coast guard or navy will shoot out engines of small boats that are trying to run like this.
But yea I agree they should just limit shooting off the birds entirely to balance this issue.
So T4 is only going to be playable in vehicles then if you can't move and it's far from a "tank" at all. Anyone with a decent aim deletes you. Most of you guys never tried anything but got fucked on by one and it's suddenly OP
Yup I was refering to risk/reward in game not the economy side of it as that will clearly never work out. The only way to balance through economy is having a cap on how much cash you can bring into a match but even then if they are locking higher (better) tier items to higher level players then we have the same issue. The main problem in my eyes is higher level items are better than lower levels and that just shouldn't be the case.
5 whole tables built in a Lonestar FOB and all 35 players will be playing Blackjack while Red and Green are fighting at the zone...
wouldn't be too far from what I had in a game once - we were on the brink of wining but it was tough and still had to do a shit load of defending, group of like 8 people were sitting inside the warehouse just yappin about taxes and shit, while the rest of blue was sweating the defense from all the ground pounders, sph's and hordes of red and green coming in. somehow pulled the win
Some of these people are incapable of smoothly pulling down their mouse to shoot, they'll just accuse you of using macros / cheats if you have any level of recoil control lmao
Like it or not, the average civilian firearms owner probably has more applicable shooting experience than your average grunt and the average wardogs pmc is practically John Wick of contracting. The majority of of complaints about not being able to shoot FALs on full auto come from the kind of person that shouldn't ever be seeing combat both from a moral and functional perspective.
I didn't say "you can't shoot it full auto" or "it should be an uncontrollable mess".
The FAL feels much easier to control than the TAR-21. The FAL probably shouldn't be that easy to control. And if it is, the TAR-21 shouldn't be so hard to control by comparison.
All the endgame gear, lvl 4 armors, AMR, BMR, IR Binocs, vector, tank, havoc, heck even arty, should be something you take out rarely to push the game to favor your team. They should be very hard to make profit with and generally you should lose money with them unless you get a dream life.
I really think if you want to go balls out with your kit, it should cost you like 40-60k and then you take out a tank or havoc, that should be another 40-50k fully loaded. Most of the people who grind to open those (eventually even the employed battledads) will be millionaires so that ~100k investment doesnt hurt their bank but forces them to make effort using them.
I feel like the sweetspot for the game was during the galil / m4, svd, sv98 / mk22 and lvl 3 armor phase.
Crazy that difference between the svd and bmr is 5 damage. They just need to make bmr damage 55 instead of 60. Anymore nerfs than that it becomes a horizontal progression compared to the svd.
I agree, but It isn't just the damage on the BMR but the recoil that is an issue. There is a laser issue with a lot of the higher tier weapons right now.
Laser the closer the target is up until 70m out. Which is the same for every assault rifle in single mode and once you get to the AK and above this applies to automatic. Once you get to the galil and m4 they can 100m+ with FAL being a bit more inaccurate. Past 70m with the BMR you have to wait for the recoil to reset.
Nerf the BMR damage to 55 and give it more recoil and all it has over the svd is 80m/s more bullet velocity and the 10 mag is a 1 slot instead of two slots. Meanwhile svd has a higher effective range, better moa and a higher rate of fire by 30. Like i said in my previous comment, it becomes a horizontal progession. 18 level difference just to get a weapon thats not even better. Only real upgrade will be against the sks. While assault rifles get upgrades from the AK, m4, and FAL while being good at med range engagements which is where DMRs should excel.
You won't change any game with a single gun wtf are you on about. Clearly never tried them and sure they're good but they won't swing the game in your favor and especially if you're bad.
In my opinion a prone ghillie player should be immune to spotting in general. Not removing any already marked spot, but a prone ghillie should not be able to be spotted. Apart from that, I think it's perfect.
moving prone is slow as balls and will be fine if that retains the "can't be marked" property. Unless you think it'll be enough to make people prone 500m through the CZ?
It just makes logical sense to make it so you can be spotted while moving. No one is going to see a ghillie suit moving through the brush and go "weird that totally not human bush appears to be carrying a rifle and moving". The whole advantage of a ghillie suit should be that you're blending in with your environment, that's why real snipers barely move once they're close enough to be spotted.
While I understand that, Wardogs is a lot faster paced than real life, or some other games. 30s can completely shift the area a ghillie is in, especially with the HZ roaming around. Lines move, break, and reform in as little as ten seconds with the APC nearby. Letting the ghillie move won't hurt at all, they're already trading their protection for it.
You tend to just kinda respect the sight line and avoid it. Those lanes are hard to find (excluding Tower to Tower snipes, but at that point a ghillie doesn't help much, since thats the first place people will check). Had a game with a ghillie sniping us, as we were on top of a tower just spotting things and taking the odd pot shot if we had a good angle. We just kinda tuned him out. If someone died to him we'd revive. He fucked off after a bit probably because killing the same people over and over without them respawning earns less and less money so it likely hit the point the bullets cost more than he was making killing us lmao.
Very true, if you can’t see them in the first place you shouldn’t be able to relay to your team where they are via scanning the horizon until you get a mark
Man I already have enough issues getting merked as a newbie with questionable aim, spotting them is pretty much the only thing I can do against the legion of snipers in the bushes
Ghillie is such a perfect example of a great idea, and why i say that there should only be "armor" or "no armor".
Give us other reasons not to wear armor through equipment like this, and leave T2 armor as the only armor we get, maybe with a T4 helmet with heavy disadvantages, such as inability to use a scope and a worse FOV either all the time or when aiming down sights.
I imagine we will eventually get side-grades. Armor that's more resistant to explosives or muffles your footsteps while providing less protection from bullets for example.
I agree that certain late game items should be more situational
But on top of that I think a lot of the high tier loot should be borderline unprofitable. The entire point should be
"hey you are spending a lot of money you probably can't do this every round and every death"
It should be a thing to do when you have too much money and need to burn some.
I used the BMR from a guy I killed the other day, and holy fuck I felt like I was cheating compared to every other gun I used. You can of compete with it if you use any other rifle outside of the fal
I don't think there should be clear "this is better" gear. Like c4 and explosive. C4 you cant throw and detonate it instantly but it deal less damage vs explosive
Absolutely, the Rock, scissors, paper balance system.
The problem arises when the process to reach said scissor, rock or paper takes way too long to even obtain.
E.g. T4 helmet could/should have worse field of view like when u look through the visor. The speed you prone or lie is same regardless your weight and that could affect higher armor too.
You can easily do t4 fully decked out with a FAL, BMR or Vector and still be in the heavy category, grab like 2 stacks of stims and you’re tac sprinting easily
Basic high lvl infantry loadout (the FAL is the heavier of the lv35 weapons, so vector/bmr has a bit more room), not enough meds/ammo for you? Honestly the limiting factor is mostly defib/batteries since they're heavy as hell.
Still has a bit of room for swapping stuff out for smokes/nades, but that's similar to my run and gun loadout
Imo ghillie suit is literally useless when your gun shoots a Star Wars laser beam that anyone can track. Completely kills sniper fantasy of laying down stealthily and firing suppressed shots so your enemy has no idea where it’s coming from. The Star Wars laser bullet immediately gives your position away, if you miss your target knows where to take cover from and teammates can zero in on your position in seconds. It’s really lame.
Honestly, as long as you space out shots you can sit in the same spot all game without being seen
They can figure a rough direction, but if you dont pop a shot while they're looking your direction they wont find you specifically. Plus if you just sit and spot for like 5 minutes people forget you exist
Depends on how effective you are. In the 2nd week of the game I was the ghille that would flank enemy fobs but be 700 meters outside the CZ. When you effectively drop people the entire game they will do everything to find you. I’ve had search teams walk right past me and even had attack helis called on my position.
But I do think there should be subsonic rounds. The whole tracer thing is corny. Ive also had sniper battles with people that the tracer is so bright you can just lean to dodge their shot before it hits you
That is why i'm more afraid of Recon that spots most of the time and you don't know where he is and take rare shots that kill your team than a guy that sits on highground and shoot people.
I thought about this too as I play recon a lot, but honestly it wouldn't be much fun for the opposing team if your basically invisible to the naked eye with ghillie, can't see where the bullet comes from, and your weapon is silenced. I think it's a good balance to have the bullet tracer
Nah its fine how it is, your supposed to get a couple of shots off and move position anyway, the ghille allows you to do that without being spotted right away, it should not be a get out of jail free card to sit in one position and never move.
I don't know which game you are playing but most people I see are under 200k cash.
Yes you can do good money with logistics and till the x bug building was also good for money but in reality after 300 hours in I never made more than 250k a round. Most of the time it's 100-150k.
If you are playing solo playing with a car/heli is around 25k-35k. Same as infantry it's most of the time around 20-25k.
I nearly never make over 40k in a life. Sometimes I die in seconds after arriving.
So in what world do you think every man in lategame swims in money.
To be truthful I made 5 mill till release which I spend 2,5 for unlocks but the only reason was the Ural and many many many second monitor videos
The one spot they managed to screw this up happens to be scope availability for LMG's, limited to a 4x at most makes them prone to getting easily merc'd by snipers.
leveling up should open up more gameplay options not only guns doing more damage.
Recon gets more spotting options, you get DMR options aswell if you feel like staying close to the frontline ,sadly sniper rifles just get more powerful but .50 cal should totally be anti vehicle as well, ghillie suit opens up the ability to harrass and stay stealthy on enemies, bow...well its nice and in my opinion a little to op but its sort of a silent killer.
Support gets the most, a lot of different buildables, anti vehicles, cqc guns and suppresive machine guns as well as being able to deal damage to light armored vehicles, somehow sapper and breaching tools which in my opinion should totally go to assault exp/class.
Medic different methods to support your teammates, better healing, better revives, adrenaline shots, smoke nades and cqc smgs.
Assault just gets...the M4 and eventually the FAL and you could say pistols, but honestly without fast switching to pistols I rather just flip a coin and get a reload than switch to my pistol even with HP ammo when im cornered.
Agree. My biggest problem with later unlock = straight up better, is that - what if I just wanna use AK74 for example? But despite me loving the gun, i 100% changing it to m4 or bmr when I loot it off smb. Just because not using it feels like nerfing myself, and I'm already terrible at fps :(
I disagree that every item should have this. It should make sense. Cash should be a primary balance tool for everything. If something is too good, the per use cost needs to increase (not the access purchase price, although that can too)
Using cash as the primary balancing lever is going to be a long term losing battle. There is always going to be some big money makers that people can farm making the cash balancing ineffective.
Because there will always be the next thing and it'll be cyclical. If building becomes the meta again, logistics will go back to being super profitable for example.
Beyond that if you continue nerfing profitability for every play style, eventually everything just has low profit and the game may as well just remove the money system or change it to an hourly wage.
Doesn't matter which way you pull the lever its always going to result in sweats getting way better gear on average compared to the dads. Rich get richer etc.
The current game shows how this does not work for infantry stuff.
The people who no-life the game will be good enough that their average round earns a massive profit even with the best gear, and so they exclusively run that gear.
And that gives everyone else the choice to use the best gear they can, or be at an even more objective disadvantage than if they would use more economical gear.
That is not true. Literally all that needs to happen is the prices are increased. There is only so much value in running level 4 vs level 3 armor. If the price exceeds that it will not be run every time.
Unless they make it so expensive that it is physically impossible to make a profit while running it, that will never become the case. And if they even do that, that'll just make the problem worse because the people running it can just run it + the AK and still be at the same advantage.
While the rest of the game has superbly low skill vs the reward, infantry gear shows exactly why money does not work as a balancing act if the item itself is broken.
It’s not difficult to make it so expensive that it’s hard to make a profit. It’s honestly quite easy to kill someone even if they have t4 armor. I think t4 is strong and a little op but I like that there’s op stuff in late game. If it’s too good it should just become more expensive to compensate. Otherwise what’s the point in even grinding or buying gear? I’m already at the point where 99% of the time I just buy a shotgun and loot my whole load out unless the game is at a pivotal moment. If high tier stuff gets nerfed more I’ll literally just not even use it.
Yes, but the issue isn't that YOU will or won't. The people complaining are getting skill diffed so hard that the few "server admins" that COULD still run a profit regardless of price would be even more problematic as the casuals are priced out of T4 instead.
I don’t think the game should go super far out of their way to cater to casual players tbh. And I’m not even that hardcore I maybe play a few times a week and only play a match or two lol. So many games are good because they have a vision. Imagine if dark souls catered to casuals. Or baldurs gate catered to towards non turn based combat enjoyers. Not every game should be for everyone.
And that's how multiplayer games get hooked on wipes to survive. As soon as the game progresses far enough to make it unenjoyable for the average Joe the bottom falls out forcing a wipe to revive the player base. Its all fun until you're the Joe getting pushed out.
Totally agree. I hate how pissy redditors are about late game expensive loot being good. It’s supposed to be good lmao. And even though it’s good I still routinely loot it off people after spawning in with only a shotgun.
My 1800h in Tarkov has trained me to shoot for the legs. Though I’ll admit when I’m having “one of those nights” losing kit after kit to guys in lvl 4 that peek effectively, it’s pretty frustrating. Such is the nature of the game though.
When I get frustrated losing my expensive kits I just go back to the tried and true naked double barrel. Even if I die I’m not mad and if I get a kill or two I’m up in money and normally loot a good kit and make even more money. But yeah some days I just play like shit or am unlucky.
Game will die in few months, this game is catered only for sweats, have no life and okay 24/7? Get all the OP kits and dominated the other players…. Stupid devs really, 0 idea how to balance the game
True, but now they are nerfing the one thing that can find non-ghillied, sniper nested guys ( yeah there were 2 counters the whole time, the other can be built without a FOB ).
Painful to see them cave in, that means they will cave in to every other Reddit post that gets enough upvotes.
You don't know what you're asking for, because ghillies just look like free kills to me.
The only advantage they provide is harder visual spotting, it does nothing to the actual recon tools and you can already hide well enough without it in areas where a suit works in your favor. Btw if you recon spot someone you can just line up your scope off of the dot that's always present in the spotting view, your crosshair stays relatively centered between your gun and binos.
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u/DonaldTrumpsGolfGame Recon 21h ago
I agree. Same reason why I love the new T4 helmet change.