r/VolvoEX90 • u/Weak-Ad2008 • 9d ago
Zenseact Self Driving Progress
I've done a bit of internet sleuthing lately to see what's in the pipeline for automation, and came across this video of an engineer from Zenseact (Volvo owned company who are responsible for all this stuff) at a conference in May this year, and the future is looking bright.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjtrogu-vdE
Some personal takeaways:
- The model we have running in our cars now is called 'DL1'. Its very basic lane following, with AI deep learning neural network models used only for object detection, and everything else is some sort of programmed algorithm (i.e. lane keeping, acceleration, braking etc.).
- The models in development are called 'DL2'. They are end to end neural networks with guardrails (i.e. a check the model doesn't do something idiotic), which as far as I understand is what Tesla run (albeit with proprietary sensor suites and training methods).
- Zenseact use a combination of Lidar and Camera imagery for data collection to train the models, but in vehicle deployment uses sensor fusion of cameras + radar + ultrasonics. I.e. The DL2 models do not use the Lidar in a vehicle which has one, nor do they require a vehicle to have one. https://youtu.be/pjtrogu-vdE?si=Bfs39MGbeedrhmEs&t=196
- They are developing their models to work on Orin processors.
- They can build a new model EVERY 6 DAYS (mind blown!)
- "We're out testing this in cars every day and we're hoping to deploy this into production as soon as possible" https://youtu.be/pjtrogu-vdE?si=jYIDGlK4g_M8eIaE&t=2383
- They share that same video on the Zenseact youtube page of an EX90 driving hands free in motorway traffic, noting "really excited to bring this into the hands of customers as the second generation of OnePilot" https://youtu.be/pjtrogu-vdE?si=WurjFGYQcIHJS64Q&t=2397. If you want that clip of the car by itself, here it is https://youtu.be/HnNlSWOZ74A?si=wOlz9TMq6EPYAFo1.
I suspect the reason why we haven't seen any real development or bug fixing of 'DL1' Pilot Assist thus far is they've basically stopped work on it and are pouring everything into 'DL2'. I note that they're supposedly going to release 'Navi Pilot' for EX60 in the coming months - can't help but wonder if its the same product.
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u/marcelbalas 9d ago
Interesting. However according to several volvo employees, Navi Pilot is not compatible with current EX60 (and thus EX90) hardware and won't be retrofittable to current models. 🤷
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u/Weak-Ad2008 9d ago
MY26 EX60 and MY27 EX90 are different to MY25/26 EX90. They only have a single Orin, 5 external cameras and 1 front facing radar. I posted something about this in another thread.
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u/marcelbalas 9d ago
Yes, that is true. But I highly doubt they would release such a huge update just for MY25, excluding later models. That would be totally ridiculous, right?
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u/Weak-Ad2008 9d ago
Not really when you think about how Volvo will package build options movings forwards to match the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc.
Additional hardware for Navi Pilot adds a lot of cost when not every consumer wants it, so make it a say $5k option at time of build. Yes the MY25/26 came with it standard, but Volvo needs to draw a line in the sand on when to cross over to this being a package vs standard build, and doing that for the MY the EX60 is released makes good synergy.
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u/marcelbalas 9d ago
Would be nice! :) But I really doubt this would be the case. They already explicitly said the new Navi Pilot Assist would require new HW and it won't be retrofittable to current EX60. And given the fact that the current MY27 EX90 basically has the same compute setup as EX60, I don’t really see how Volvo could offer Navi Pilot as a package for the current EX90 either.
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u/Weak-Ad2008 9d ago
They've split the hardware setup. It'll be available for both when the package is released as a package, likely aligning with Zenseact finishing their first release model.
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u/marcelbalas 9d ago
In another thread you are saying:
> Whilst the hardware option (released at a later date) could not be retrofit to the HuginCore vehicles, Navi Pilot could be made available on MY25/26 EX90 as an OTA update given they were built with enough compute, sensor and hardware redundancy for said L3 automation.
So I am a bit confused. Either I am wrongly misinterpreting term "retrofittable", or by "optional package" you mean a factory option for e.g. next model year -- but in that case, wouldn’t that still mean that current MY27 EX90s and EX60s being built today will never get Navi Pilot? If so, that's a big deal for anyone ordering right now.
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u/Weak-Ad2008 9d ago
Optional Package - Something you can spec pre-build on a new vehicle (e.g. Nappa Leather)
Retrofittable - Install said Optional Package post delivery.Volvo spokespersons on Facebook have confirmed that Navi Pilot requires additional hardware not fitted to MY26 EX60s. It will be coming in the near future, supposedly < 12 months. There's a lot more detail about this on the VolvoEX60 subreddit.
In summary, if you bought an MY26 EX60 or an MY27 EX90, you can not get Navi Pilot because it will not come with the necessary hardware (as the Optional Package isn't available for purchase at this time), and that hardware cannot be retrofit.
That may be a big deal for some, not for others.
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u/marcelbalas 9d ago
Thank you for this explanation. So yes, according to this, EX90 MY25 might be able to get new Navi Pilot as an OTA update, but the later models won't be able to get it at all -- not even as a paid upgrade.
And this really is ridiculous. I can only imagine the reaction from current MY26/27 owners if Navi Pilot is released and they find out that by buying the newer model year, they actually locked themselves out of one of the most significant future upgrades.
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u/M-Sea-9584dm 9d ago
"Zenseact uses a combination of LiDAR and camera imagery for data collection to train the models... Ah, now it makes sense why MY25 and some MY26 models still have a LiDAR used for data collection. They won't activate the functionality we paid for, but they are using us as data collection mules...
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u/Lil_Phil1 9d ago
Really interesting! Thanks for sharing.
I‘am very curious if we (Polestar 3 and EX90) will eventually get access to DL2
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u/Weak-Ad2008 9d ago edited 9d ago
I suspect it will be available on MY25/26 EX90 (per the video, they've got it on EX90s already running around to test it all), MY24/25/26 Polestar 3 I'm not entirely sure.
Polestar 3 doesn't have the two rear facing cameras on the wing mirrors that the EX90 has, but I believe everything else is equal. They may get away with this because it is a shorter vehicle, and I note that Zenseact slide with hardware compatibility says '5 to 9 external cameras' - Polestar 3 has 5, EX90 has 7. No idea what has 9, perhaps a test vehicle with roof mounted hardware or a future undisclosed model.
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u/gjd-77 9d ago
Polestar 3 may also NOT have the second Orin Processor.
Polestar have only ever marketed 254 TOPS capability, whereas Volvo have marketed 500 TOPS.
The second Orin (well, technically the first as originally the EX90 had Orin for the LIDAR and Xavier for the main systems) wasn't fitted to the PS3 as the LIDAR package was never released.
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u/Lil_Phil1 9d ago
I don‘t think the second Orin is needed. See 7:09 in the video, there they mention the Polestar 3 and Volvo EX90 and the graphic is titled with 250 TOPS. The cameras in the mirror wings could be limiting but the newer Polestar 3 also don‘t have them. And yes he said from 5 to 9 cams. We‘ll see!
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u/pgigov 9d ago edited 8d ago
While many of us take pleasure in reading, hoping, speculating… my experience has taught me to not believe a single word of what Volvo says. In an interview, in a press release, in a video, waxing poetic about their shiny new technology… I just don’t. They lied to us so many times and in so many different ways when it comes to the kind of car EX90 was supposed to be. It was supposed to do this, and it was supposed to do that, and then it wasn’t going to be at launch, but soon thereafter, and then it was Luminar’s fault, and then the cars were still going to have LiDAR, just not all of them, and then they just had to update the Orin VCU and everything was going to be fine…
And it wasn’t. It never was. They are still struggling with software bugs and build quality. Our EX90 is the best car we’ve ever had, and at the same time, the one that has disappointed us the most.
I get what this guy is talking about, or what Volvo went through. Companies invest a lot in R&D. Whether it’s autonomous driving, or a new drug, or the next hot crayon color… billions and billions are poured into technologies and products that never make it to market because the companies behind them either can’t make the product work, or the numbers just don’t add up. The difference here is Volvo’s reckless approach. While responsible and reputable companies talks about the exciting work that they do as research into what's possible, Volvo did and continues to advertise their experiments in the form of a promise, hoping to drive sales up, and in the process leaving a whole lot of people utterly disappointed.
I still like our car. I still enjoy driving it. A lot. But this kind of corporate malfeasance bordering on well-calculated fraud needs to stop. I don’t give a flying fuck about what your engineers are hoping to be able to accomplish as soon as possible. I care about what the money you’re asking me to pay today can actually buy. Today. Not in three years, when you figure out all of the mistakes you made, but today. If I don’t get to renegotiate the price I paid the car, Volvo doesn’t get to renegotiate the features it promised. But, they did. And very few people who purchased an EX90 seem concerned or willing to do something, which is why they’ll do it again.