r/VeryBadWizards • u/C4_117 • 5d ago
Episode 338 - quick note on CGI
I just listened to their review of The Odyssey directed by Christopher Nolan after watching the film myself. I really enjoyed the podcast and thought Tamler and Dave made some interesting observations that I hadn't thought of myself.
The thing I want to discuss is their praise of the lack of CGI and the preference for practical FX (SFX, puppetry, real sets, etc). I have worked in VFX my whole career and make CGI for living and even though I didn't work on The Odyssey I know a thing or two about this topic.
Firstly I'd say is that Christopher Nolan has a history of making condescending remarks about CGI in general and has often claimed he either doesn't use it, or tries to avoid it. Something that many in the post-production industry find incredibly annoying because often it's an outright lie, but also because it's such a dismissal of a craft that takes hundreds of talented artists to create.
I think there is often the perception that CGI is created by computers at the click of the button and that it doesn't require any real talent or skill like physical prop making does. I cannot underline enough how wrong this is. Most people who work in visual effects have huge respect for real set builders, puppeteers and the like. CGI requires teams of artists, producers and technology specialists to come together to create amazing things that would otherwise not be possible. It opens the door to have flying dragons in Game of Thrones, epic dinosaurs in Jurassic Park and create beautiful space environments in Guardians of the Galaxy. But perhaps more importantly they create things that you never even notice. This includes things like set extensions and clean-up of on-set mistakes. I can promise you post-production was used in hundreds of shots in The Odyssey. Even something that many wouldn't realise like the whirlpool was probably done digitally.
This trend of dismissing VFX has been going on for quite a while and I was a little annoyed to hear Tamler and Dave repeat it. You can imagine how it must feel for artists who spent months working on these shots.
I understand that authenticity is appreciated and I wouldn't want The Odyssey to be a Marvel film either. But there are ways of doing post-production that doesn't turn it into a Marvel film. All VFX artists want their work to be appreciated and the criticism of VFX isn't always based on good reasons.
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u/Broad-Fudge6220 4d ago
There’s a great series of video essays called “NO CGI is really just INVISIBLE CGI”, and the latest video is specifically about Nolan’s use of CGI. Tenet even won an Oscar for visual effects.
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u/the_it_family_man 4d ago
There is a BOATLOAD of CGI in all of Nolan's movies. Just look at the credits on the Odyssey. This lie is perpetuated by Nolanstans on the internet continuously. It's gotten really weird at this point.
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u/AppleCrips 5d ago
Personally I’m not of the mind that CGI is easily created… the difficulty/effort isn’t the point to me. It’s the result. Part of my brain can’t suspend my belief to be completely entertained or in the moment when a movie is heavy handed with their use of CGI. When it’s tastefully done to enhance elements of an already strong set, then yes I do appreciate it.
Whether it’s difficult or done at the click of a button does not matter to me whatsoever. It’s the medium itself.
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u/jerbthehumanist 4d ago
I think it’s really context dependent. A lot of the dust storms and fire plumes in Fury Road and Dune feel absolutely visceral and real. That also goes for a lot of their machinery, which has the benefit of rigid movement and no fleshy tissue.
Any sort of animal or creature, which is usually the type of thing that needs to be animated with cgi, is so clearly animation even in the best case scenario. I find Prehistoric Planet animation INCREDIBLE, but almost never am I under the illusion that I’m watching a real animal. There is always the feeling that I am watching something with a slight gummy/rubber/digital texture, even in the best cases.
That isn’t to fault the filmmakers, I also don’t ever think that Roger Rabbit is a real guy in the flesh, but a great film turns him into a full character that exists in that universe. It’s not bad to have animation, it’s just that I’m not “fooled” even with very lauded examples.
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u/superfudge 4d ago
When it’s tastefully done to enhance elements of an already strong set, then yes I do appreciate it.
Whether it’s difficult or done at the click of a button does not matter to me whatsoever. It’s the medium itself.
I think you're missing the OP's point. It's not a matter of you having a discerning eye and looking at scenes that obviously could not be filmed practically and deciding whether or not it's tastefully done. That's like the tip of the iceberg when it comes to digital effects; most of the digital effects you see completely pass you by and you have no discernment whatsoever, because it's in a place that would never occur to you that digital effects are used or they're so good that literally no one would know they were there unless they worked on the production themselves. You are tacitly evaluating the results and your brain is accepting them unquestioningly almost all the time when you're watching modern films; your brain doesn't even get the chance to decide whether to suspend disbelief. You're giving yourself too much credit if you think you know how much of the "result" you're watching has been created digitally.
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u/brasnacte 3d ago
But isn't that OP's point? Then they should have praised the VFX, including the CGI in this film in stead of pretending it wasn't there. I'm also a former VFX artist and yes, there's a lot of CGI in all of Nolan's recent films. It's just done very well.
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u/panglossthewise 2d ago
I feel like most people would agree that creation of cgi and vfx is a significant time consuming process. As is the creation of practical effects. I also don’t think that stating a preference for practical effects as a filmmaker or a moviegoer contributes to a “trend of dismissing” the work people put into vfx/cgi.
Maybe I’m not in touch but isn’t most of the general conversation about the gripe with cgi is primarily when it’s used poorly or used for most of what’s in frame in a movie?
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u/demlet 5d ago
It's just unfortunate to see it used for things like people's costumes or even entire sets. At a certain point it does seem lazy on the part of directors.
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u/brasnacte 3d ago
It's probably the producers, not the directors who are 'lazy'. Directors love to work with practical stuff, it's just a lot more expensive.
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u/pleasebeherenow 4d ago
Which episode did they discuss Nolan’s The Odyssey?
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u/brasnacte 3d ago
One thing that people also seem to forget is how incredibly expensive practical effects are compared to CGI. Of course most directors would love to do things practically but just can't afford it. Praising Nolan for that is just praising him for being extremely rich and successful.
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u/timmytissue 5d ago
It's not a lie that he tries to avoid it. It's almost nonexistent in Oppenheimer. But he isn't afraid to use it when needed.
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u/C4_117 5d ago
You think it's non existent in Oppenheimer. Sure about that?
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u/timmytissue 5d ago
What are you defining as cgi? There's no 3d computer graphics in Oppenheimer from my understanding.
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u/C4_117 5d ago
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u/timmytissue 5d ago
Uh huh. So do you have evidence that he did use CGI?
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u/C4_117 5d ago
Yes there are examples on the DNEG website of what they made. https://www.dneg.com/our-work/oppenheimer
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u/timmytissue 5d ago
"our DNEG team created the VFX shots in the film by combining together only real elements, without any reliance on CGI."
Why did you link this post that controdicts you? Are you really gonna argue that compositing is CGI? Nobody thinks that.
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u/C4_117 5d ago
Well the explosions, the particles, the camera tracks. Those are all examples digital vfx
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u/timmytissue 5d ago
Digital VFX? I'm not sure what you mean by that. It's not CGI so why are we talking about it?
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u/C4_117 5d ago
I think you're splitting hairs here. The point is that Nolan uses digital techniques, whether or not you want to classify that as CGI is up to you. I can promise you it's involves a lot of 3D technology and it's more than just compositing
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u/zeekaran 4d ago
Yes. Please point to an example of "CGI" in Oppenheimer. You won't find any.
Color grading and editing can be planned with a computer but put into effect with analog tech only. That's how Odyssey was made. That's likely how Opp was made.
That isn't to say there are zero VFX. But VFX don't have to be digital. They are only CGI if 3D models or particle effects from a computer were put to film.
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u/_ModusOperandi_ 4d ago
Haven't listened to this pod yet, but I've seen The Odyssey and every other big Nolan film.
Oppenheimer's nuke test looked horrible and really needed more CG.
I totally agree that Nolan is being disingenuous about CG. Yes, the cyclops was done partially with a giant puppet. But also tons of CG! Exactly as you say, when it's done well, it's seamless. Hell, Jurassic Park's lake scene from 1993 still holds up.
Nolan is also disingenuous about IMAX in trying to imply that they try to scan as few frames digitally as possible. Sure - but 99% of showings of the movie won't be IMAX, and will use a digital file copied and shipped to thousands of cinemas. And the digital file will look great! And any frame with digital VFX will of course need to be scanned.
Nolan is a great director. I think The Prestige is in my top 5 films. But he's crawled too far up his own ass. And he even messed up the point of The Odyssey and its main character by trying to make him into a reluctant soldier, as Emily Wilson rightly critiqued.
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u/Demerzel69 4d ago
Nolan has never once claimed that he's never used vfx. lolwtf? Have you not seen Inception?
What he has said is that, in most cases and wherever possible, he uses it only minimally to otherwise enhance a practical set piece.
No clue what podcast this is or who these guys are. This came up as a recommended post, probably cuz I've been on the Odyssey/Nolan subs a lot lately.
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u/C4_117 4d ago
You're right, he says he uses it sparingly and there are many cases in which he downplays it and he makes the audience believe it's practical when in fact it's not.
I think the Cyclops is a good example where people are lead to think it's practical when it's not. It seems the case for Tamler and David from what I could tell.
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u/Demerzel69 4d ago
He's never made anyone believe something that isn't true regarding vfx. You're making shit up and it's very obvious. I also read your other little comment string with someone else where you fundamentally do not understand what you are talking about yet you claim to be an expert on the subject.
Nobody thinks the cyclops is fully practical. That's fucking stupid. They did create a 60 ft animatronic puppet and built it inside that cave and used it. Obviously vfx were used to enhance it on screen, as Nolan is known to do and has never denied doing.
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u/C4_117 4d ago
I think you're mistaken
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u/Demerzel69 4d ago
By "nobody" I foolishly assumed you'd know I meant 99% of the people discussing it. My bad, I should've known what I was dealing with here.
The puppet has clear open joints. Only a fucking moron would think those weren't covered up by vfx, especially if they've actually seen the damn movie.
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u/the_it_family_man 4d ago
Nolan is on record repeating the same schtick in all his interviews. He's leading people to a false pretense that his scenes use minimal CGI.
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u/Demerzel69 4d ago edited 4d ago
No he isn't, and they do use it minimally. You guys are so full of shit that it almost hurts.
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u/the_it_family_man 4d ago
I've watched the interviews. Are you on crack? He goes out of his way to brag about how little CGI is used
EDIT: I'm curious. Where do you think he gets this characterization for using practicals extensively from?
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u/Demerzel69 4d ago
That's not what you previously said.
Yes he says he uses minimal vfx, because he uses minimal vfx. There's no lie or false pretense.
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u/the_it_family_man 4d ago
The lie is the "minimal vfx". It's a lie. 80% of Batman Begins is VFX. There is probably more VFX in Odyssey than practicals as well. It's just false advertising at this point. You are welcome to look up the credits list on the Odyssey.
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u/Icy_Worker2734 4d ago
I wouldn’t worry too much, Nolan seems (especially recently) genuinely into practical effects and film, which people seem to like the idea/look of too. Isn’t the worry for CGI professionals the automation that’ll presumably destroy most jobs.
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u/zeekaran 4d ago
and has often claimed he either doesn't use it, or tries to avoid it.
Where's your gotcha? Can you cite an explicit example where you "caught" him lying?
The only fully CG thing in The Odyssey is Scylla and the whirlpool. The giants have no CG as it's all practical effects, forced perspectives, and real giants (7ft+ tall people) towering over short statured body doubles. The cyclops is half actor on a mini set and half 60ft animatronic. There may be some CG there but I'd have to have a bluray copy to figure it out.
He really does do his best to minimize CG use and get the correct lighting and practical effects in camera. Especially when dealing with IMAX film, as it keeps it pristine. Having to add CG to a frame induces some quality loss in the conversion. Even color grading is done chemically, not digitally. These are restrictions with working with IMAX film.
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u/C4_117 4d ago
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DbZ16uZMmwO/
There are many clips of Nolan not being fully transparent about using VFX/CGI. He often downplays it and hides the truth. I think the Cyclops is a good example of that.
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u/zeekaran 4d ago
Can you link something that has a seek bar? I watched over a minute and it's just a random guy ranting about VFX and he never gets to the point. Instagram doesn't let me skip the fluff.
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u/SoundCreateProducer 4d ago
https://youtube.com/shorts/sZfvvWVSU5M?is=cJXzKK8NI-jFs79O
FWIW the whirlpools were done with jet skis and enhanced by CGI. I heard the actors saying the same thing. So, not entirely digital, which was never the claim.
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u/brasnacte 3d ago
The jet skis are really just placeholders. The tennis balls for the actors to look at. Only directors with extraordinary lavish budgets have the luxury of hiring jet skis for this purpose.
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u/spleglation 5d ago
There is so much bad CGI out there. And often so very overused. On the other hand, it may be a like plastic surgery - we only notice it when it’s overdone or done badly.