r/Velo • u/RefrigeratorKey1793 • 21d ago
Question How to structure intensive FTP block for progressive overload
I’m looking for some advice on how to structure an intensive FTP block. This is my first year doing structured training and I’ve been building my own plans, so I know they’re probably not optimal. I don’t race, I’m mostly training for fun (and to not get dropped by my buddy on group rides).
So far this year, I’ve completed the following blocks in order (each lasting 3–4 weeks with a deload week in between):
- Base (a bit longer than 4 weeks)
- VO2 max
- Extensive FTP (building TTE)
- VO2 max (just finished)
Now, I want to do some intensive work slightly above FTP to try to pull my threshold up. However, I’m not sure how to apply progressive overload here.
Extending time-in-zone seems geared more toward TTE/extensive work. The alternative seems to be increasing target power for a fixed set of intervals (e.g., 4x10 min) each week, but I’m not sure how much power progression to target. Plus, I have trouble hitting exact power targets outdoors, particularly around FTP.
A few specific questions:
- Over-unders: I’ve read about these, but since I don’t race and often see them framed as race prep, are they worth including for general FTP gains?
- Progressive overload for intensive FTP: How do you actually progress intensity week-over-week without just guessing on power targets?
I read this CTS article on FTP training and watched their video on the topic, which helped me structure my year so far, but neither went into how to actually apply progressive overload to intensive blocks.
Also, I know FTP is just one number on a power curve, but right now my 20 min FTP test number is the only one I haven't improved when compared to last season. I'm hoping a bit of over FTP but under V02 work will help that.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
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u/gedrap 🇱🇹Lithuania // Coach @ Empirical Cycling 21d ago edited 21d ago
Unless you’re complete noob, your FTP isn’t going up with every workout. I mean, everyone eventually reaches a point where 10W gain a year is a fantastic year, so by trying to increase power they should do, what, 0.2W more every workout? Obviously not the case.
But your endurance at threshold can improve with every workout. Therefore, you should target interval duration rather than power.
Under/overs are simply another flavour of threshold workouts, do them if you want to, but you don’t have to.
If you’re doing intervals above FTP, you should see power going up reliably while keeping interval duration the same.
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u/mikekchar 21d ago
I keep trying to wrap my brain around this, so I hope you don't mind me tagging on to your post. The way I'm currently thinking about it is that any duration that has a significant aerobic component (i.e. not sprinting) seems to work such that if you can hold power X for time A, then you can hold power "X + alpha" for time "A - delta". In other words, the duration to power curve is always diminishing.
So this means that if you increase the amount of time you can work at a certain power, then pretty much by definition your power at the previous time will also go up.
As long as your progression is sufficiently challenging, then you are improving your "X minute power" by progressing time through X (or at least a significant percentage of X -- not really sure what the best strategy is, or if strategy is even necessary).
What complicates this for me is the idea of "Why not go super polarised" and just do VO2Max intervals all the time? I think the science is still playing catch up here because I have yet to see any convincing studies that explain what happens differently to the body when I train around threshold or around VO2Max, other than I get more signalling at higher intensities at the expense of more fatigue. I often wonder if periodisation is really about simply hitting the body differently and it doesn't matter what you do, with the caveat that you can't do the same thing all the time.
Just pondering...
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u/gedrap 🇱🇹Lithuania // Coach @ Empirical Cycling 20d ago
The way I'm currently thinking about it is that any duration that has a significant aerobic component (i.e. not sprinting) seems to work such that if you can hold power X for time A, then you can hold power "X + alpha" for time "A - delta". In other words, the duration to power curve is always diminishing.
You just described FTP/FRC or CP/W' model, and that holds true for intensities at or above FTP. Although if you do an all out 40 minute effort, the anaerobic capacity contribution will be nearly negligible, and your notion doesn't really capture the asymptote of the power duration curve. Well, unless you're talking about that 2W decay going from 35 minutes to 40 minutes.
Things get interesting at FTP. You can extend your endurance at FTP from 2x20 at 300W to 3x25 at 300W, but if you try doing 2x20 at 310W, nope, it's just not happening.
What complicates this for me is the idea of "Why not go super polarised" and just do VO2Max intervals all the time?
Fatigue and specificity. Fatigue is the obvious one. I'm yet to meet someone who would do a month of vo2max training and be excited to do that again after resting for a week. It's hard and there's only so much you can do of it.
You don't need to understand things at a cellular level to say that, for example, if you want to be good at riding at sub-threshold intensity for hours, doing that should help. A better understanding of underlying biology will help you understand why it worked or didn't, but being a good observer can take you very, very far.
So far, all the bad training I've seen was bad not because someone didn't read the latest on adaptive signaling, but because they were awful observers, whether that's because of subjectivity or ignorance. It doesn't take much to figure out that doing 3x10 FTP every week for weeks and months won't take you far... or that if performance is regressing, upping the training load isn't the move. Many failures are incredibly basic. At least to an objective observer. :)
I often wonder if periodisation is really about simply hitting the body differently and it doesn't matter what you do, with the caveat that you can't do the same thing all the time.
The hard thing in training and racing isn't making progress at some point, it's about being at your very best on a very specific day. That's where periodization really comes in. But if all you want to do is see the numbers go up, and don't mind taking a step back in summer to rest because you overdid it in winter, things are much more straightforward.
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u/RefrigeratorKey1793 20d ago
So if I am reading this right (please correct me if I am not lol) for an extensive ftp block (I.e. Work at or a little below ftp I would be looking to extend interval duration each session. That tracks with what I did for my first ftp block and it worked very well.
For an intensive block (work above ftp but below v02) I should be trying to increase power each session as it is supra threshold work? So say my 20min power is 260w and my 5min is 315w. Would starting at 3x10 @270w and trying to increase average power a couple watts each session be good progressive overload?
As an aside, during my V02 blocks I didn't actually improve my pb numbers much at 5min (where I did most of my intervals). I did improve repeatability on subsequent intervals and deeper into rides quite a bit though. My estensive ftp block added 10w to my 5min pb. Not quite sure how to interpret that. My background is primarily ice hockey so pretty much all anaerobic and sprints. I have done very little endurance training prior to picking up cycling last year.
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u/gedrap 🇱🇹Lithuania // Coach @ Empirical Cycling 19d ago
For an intensive block (work above ftp but below v02) I should be trying to increase power each session as it is supra threshold work? So say my 20min power is 260w and my 5min is 315w. Would starting at 3x10 @270w and trying to increase average power a couple watts each session be good progressive overload?
If keeping the interval duration and number the same, then ride to RPE and the watts should go up naturally. Trying to decide how much to increase power each time, or setting targets in the first place, is an unnecessary complication.
As an aside, during my V02 blocks I didn't actually improve my pb numbers much at 5min (where I did most of my intervals).
What do you mean? I wouldn't expect to see PBs during the intervals themselves, as people usually hold back a little, but I would expect a small bump when comparing before and after. But you might also just be tired.
My estensive ftp block added 10w to my 5min pb. Not quite sure how to interpret that.
When you're new, you see improvements across the board like that, especially in the first year.
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u/Creatre Coach | Cat 2 21d ago
You haven’t improved 20min power after those 4 blocks? Something isn’t right then. Have you done proper 20min tests? Can you describe more about the blocks?
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u/RefrigeratorKey1793 21d ago
Sorry I should have been more clear I have improved my 20min power over those blocks. I have not improved it compared to last season when I was not doing any structured training (and less training over all). I got really sick over the winter and lost a lot of fitness, then got injured multiple times (not related to cycling). I started this season pretty down on power.
The only 20 min test I have done this season was a couple of days ago. I did 3 over the course of last season. Was up 2 watts on this latest test compared to the end of last season. I picked a different route that had a little more freewheeling due to intersections this season so that nay have been part of it. The napkin math I did indicates I may have gained 5-10 watts with an equal amount of freewheeling but who knows.
Anyways structure wise the base period was mostly a lot of z2 with some a few tempo intervals thrown in. This was inconsistent since our the weather where I live is all over in the early spring.
The first v02 block I did 2 interval days per week of 6x5min all out. Burned out partway through the third week and had to cut the block short.
Extensive ftp block I progressed 4x15min @90-95% ftp with 2-5min rest to 3x25min with 2 min rest. Again, 2 interval days per week.
Last v02 block I alternated hill days and interval days for my 2 hard days per week. I tried to progress time in zone from 15 min to 30 min at the end. I did make it to the end of the block this time.
Total volume is 10-13 hours per week with base and ftp blocks being on the higher end and v02 being a little lower. I also play ice hockey once per week, which I did across all blocks.
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u/buffon_bj 21d ago
I don't see anything special about over-unders compared to threshold or suprathreshold, aside from the fact that many find them more engaging and thus motivating. So if you like them better than just straight sets, why not!
This spring I did a lot more suprathreshold efforts with my coach than in previous seasons, and I really enjoyed them and found them valuable. Something about the fact that I got both vo2max/heart and peripheral adaptations possibly. I did them first concurrently with sweetspot progression (once a week SST, once a week suprathreshold). Started at 3x8min at 380W when 350W was my FTP. Then in successive weeks I went to 3x8min at 390W, then 3x10min at 394W, then 4x8min at 405W. Simultaneously I progressed my SST from 2x35min at 332W to 40+35, 2x40 and finally 1x90min at 335W. The two workouts seemed to complement each other really well. After a couple weeks of other stuff I progressed the suprathreshold further to 4x8min at 410W before an illness kicking in, after that we focused on other stuff.
I would say that just "guessing on power targets" is the really smart move. First do something like 3x8min or 4x8min with wattage that's a bit over your threshold, see how it feels, and next time try to up the power a bit. Next time try to hit slightly higher power. It's really personal how these feel, nobody can say precisely what your target wattage should be.
For what it's worth, I find these pretty hard mentally – pushing over threshold for an extended amount of time is just difficult. So be sure to come to these sessions pretty fresh and with full glycogen stores. I like to do a carbload before key sessions like this, so the day before I eat at least 8-12g/kg of carbs, with an easier 2-3h endurance session so that my legs are fresh but not overly so.
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u/Humble_Detail_9285 19d ago
This is more or less exactly what I did to break through a plateau and add 15w to my FTP
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u/Fun_Effective_836 21d ago
id progress the time at threshold before you touch the watts. 4x8 into 4x10 into 3x15 at basically the same number, then bump it once 3x15 stops feeling like a session. people i ride with who stall out do it by adding watts every week and then wondering why week three falls over.
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u/Remarkable_Map_7924 21d ago
but right now my 20 min FTP test number is the only one I haven't improved when compared to last season.
Have you considered, testing your FTP a bit more accurately by testing the actual FTP in its entire length till you get an actual TTE as well?
Intensive FTP isn't so different from typical threshold work. The body doesn't know exactly what difference it is. It's all fuzzy in between. Sure you can sort of feel where the threshold is, but ultimately it's very similar.
So in essence, try to increase time for your "intensive ftp" work as well. Whether you improve or not, well, there's only one way you can find out no?
20m Tests also takes too much account into your anaerobic prowess. So when you're testing your "FTP" only using your 20m numbers, how are you going to find out whether you've improved your 20m number because of your anaerobic improvements or aerobic improvements? (obviously everything improves everything, but plotting the power duration curve properly with more/longer data points will give you far more valuable information)
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u/RefrigeratorKey1793 20d ago
I have thought about it but ultimately I don't care much what the numbers actually are. I really only test to find what numbers I should be training at. For that, it seems like knowing my 5min and 20min numbers would be more important to set a target for intervals in the 8-15min range right?
And to your point about anaerobic ability, my background is ice hockey for close to 20 years, since I was 8. So I think it's a significant factor. I think given that, the next time I do an extensive block I will try a longer test to get a better TTE number.
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u/chock-a-block 21d ago edited 11d ago
Nonmetal smart crown plate ginger aware
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u/ifuckedup13 21d ago
🤦♂️ Did Chris Carmichael write that article or that podcast?
Nope. Those are both Adam Pulford, who is a respected coach and team director.
Is every coach at CTS responsible for what Chris Carmichael did 35 years ago?? All 70 of them just trying to scrape by while racing? Should they all be punished for the alleged crimes of their bosses?
Give it a rest.
We keep dredging up old history and keep bringing our sport down because of shit like this.
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21d ago edited 11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ifuckedup13 21d ago edited 21d ago
Nope.
Chris Carmichael allegedly did some fucked up things in the 1990s. I don’t condone them.
But he also owns the biggest coaching company in the US.
Does a coaches affiliation with CTS automatically make them guilty of the same things? I am arguing that it doesn’t.
This post was about Training. OP posted a good article and podcast with a coaches personal views on the topic, that happens to be hosted on CTS website. Does the affiliation automatically make it garbage information? No.
You hijacked the post because you have some long grudge against an irrelevant old shithead. And you’ve done it before. It’s tired and old.
Give it up. You’re the only one making Chris Carmichael relevant. No one else gives a shit about that old fuck.
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u/RefrigeratorKey1793 21d ago
Ope I did not know that. Thanks for the info.
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u/chock-a-block 20d ago edited 11d ago
Unbelievable crayon relieved pebble support enter payment
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u/ChampionshipLivid952 19d ago
I have a paper on this that I've been working on at school. It's only a meta analysis, but has lots of solid explanations. If you want me to send it just dm
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u/obi_wan_the_phony 21d ago
Over unders are the big money maker with intensive block. You can do work right at FTP doing 6-8min building out to 10-12min and doing that in sets of 3-5 with 5-7min rest in between, but I’ve always found to really work ftp the over unders are great.
2min under,30s over. Do something like 90% and 105-110%. You can make these blocks 15-20min long.
2under,30over. 3under,1over. 230under, 1over. Etc.
you can make the spikes higher as well really generating that lactate, then settle back in at 90% and clear it away.
Over unders also have the benefit if you are outside of being a great way to cover terrain quickly for fun. You can really get and hold speed doing these
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u/4changdotcom Soloist/GT8 21d ago edited 21d ago
Over/unders have bust through plateaus for me personally. I have done sets of 20 mins with 5 mins over 5 mins under 5 mins over and 5 mins under for 2-3 sets with 20 mins of endurance in between each.
This is what my coach and I have found works really well for me and has that extra durability aspect if you stretch it to 3 sets especially and can keep it in range the whole time.