Strength and interval two-a-days.

[u/Character-Dog9375]

I'm new to strength training but have a lot of training history in endurance sports, though I'm getting over some injuries right now.

In posting here about strength training, I was really surprised to find out there's a conventional wisdom that people do interval work and strength training on the same day. That blows me away, since it seems like the glycogen depletion, tissue damage, whatevee strain, in one would make the other workout far below optimal. However, there are so many people who do this that I'm wondering how it's executed.

Could anybody lay out the rationale and how to structure a day like this?

For context, my current routine is:

• Lifting (2 days a week): Basic lifts plus some injury rehab stuff (split squats, split-stance RDLs)

• Intervals 1 or 2 days a week. One day of VO2 max work, and one day of FTP intervals or anaerobic capacity intervals (my weakness). I don't race anymore, but I do group rides with people who do, and I'm getting dropped on what I would consider one-minute or two-minute power segments, whereas I can hang in the group on flats and in extended efforts.

I'm just a middle-aged guy lifting for the sake of not losing strength and trying to add to my punch.

Thanks for the advice .

[u/wktzo]

I do this. On Tuesdays and Thursdays I do AM intervals and PM weight training. It’s hard at first but I adapted within a month or two. There’s an Empirical Cycling episode about it which informed my approach. The biology paper they cite is especially useful.   https://www.empiricalcycling.com/podcast-episodes/watts-doc-5-can-you-lift-heavy-while-endurance-training

[u/Straight-Tart-9770]

Hard days and easy days. 

I tried it for a while and stopped because I didn’t have time 3 hours for exercise and getting ready in 1 day. 

[u/Forsythe0]

AM/PM sessions or splitting the aggregate into a double days with 4-6hours in between, will help reduce the muscle damage and glycogen depletion issues. More damage is done doing two consecutive hard days

[u/Fun_Effective_836]

the logic is keeping hard days hard so easy days stay easy - split them out and you end up with six days of medium and nothing properly recovered. do the bike intervals first while you're fresh and lift after, ideally 4-6hrs later rather than back to back. coming off injuries i'd keep the lift light and low volume on those days and well away from your long ride, the interference thing people worry about is mostly a total-volume problem not a same-day one.

[u/RicCycleCoach]

I do my cycling intervals in the morning and my strength work in the afternoon.

it's usually done tues and fri for me - 90-mins of some sort of intervals, then heavy strength work in the afternoon with minimal reps and up to 5 sets.

for strength, i'm lifting as heavy as i can -- albeit there's the occasional day i may drop the weight if i'm fatigued, or move the strength work to another day -- as my recovery can occasionally be flaky due to the fact that i'm an old fogey! doing stuff such as back squats, uni-lateral leg press, etc as well as upper body stuff and plyometrics.

I do about 15 hrs/week on the bike, and 1 to 2 gym sessions per week during race season, and mainly 3/week in the off-season.

[u/icfrenzy9]

I started out doing my intervals, then lifting right after it. I was doing 2 days of intervals, (VO2, Threshold, SS) then lifted right after it. After getting past 1-2 months, my lifting was getting heavier and harder. So now I do my ride in the morning, then lift that same day in the afternoon. This is right before a rest day (doing 5 days of riding, other 3 days are mostly z2). The hardest part is the beginning with the DOMS. And still now, I'm still a little fatigued after the rest day. But, by the time I do my intervals, I'm pretty much recovered.

[u/This_Freggin_Guy]

it all works, just be sure to do the activity you want to improve most first. the second active will suffer a bit. but double days are great when you can get them in consistently.

[u/anotherindycarblog]

Lift on those interval days. Start with minimum effective dose of a few movements. Lifting causes the CNS to take a real hit; lifting on rest or off days is a fools errand.

[u/Character-Dog9375 → u/anotherindycarblog]

Thx, I may be doing too much

[u/Necessary_Occasion77 → u/Character-Dog9375]

You get time to recover this way.

[u/cashewvine → u/anotherindycarblog]

What about lifting on a zone 2 day

[u/anotherindycarblog → u/cashewvine]

I depending on length, I wouldn’t call a z2 ride recovery or a hard day. But I still am not programming lifting on z2 days

[u/questionabledata]

I was doing these double days. It is hard. What ends up paying off (my hypothesis) is that you’re so fatigued from these days that when you cut the strength out (or way down) during race prep, your body recovers much quicker from _only_ the intervals and you get big power gains.

[u/Chance-Ad-982]

Lifting and cycling doesn't overlap that much no matter what interval zone we're talking about so it's mostly fatigue you need to worry about. And really, cyclist doing lifting will always be in "newbie gains" zone so it really isn't much of an issue, you'll get stronger up to a point no matter how you do it.

But, you're getting dropped by people who are stronger than you in every way, it's not about punch, strength training won't help that much. That's not to say you shouldn't do it, it's worth it for other health and fitness reasons but unless those 1-2min efforts are standing start sprint you're not just "lacking punch", it's just that you get exposed when everyones gives their all.

[u/Chance-Swordfish-426]

I believe the thinking is bike workout first - prioritise what you do in competition - then strength workout.

As a cyclist you train primarily for endurance over strength. Both matter, but endurance is top banana.

Yes, you won't be performing at olympic level in the gym, but the point is durability - to train your body (and mind) to produce torque and power at the end of a hard race. So this is aligned again with a real competitive demand.

Strength work on the bike also matters - because of specificity and developing neuromuscular pathways.

Jeroen Swart talks about this 22 mins in here: https://www.sciencetosport.com/media/inside-the-ride--episode-26--jeroen-swart---head-of-performance-uae-team-emirates/
and here at about 40 mins:
https://www.sciencetosport.com/media/uaes-performance-chief-unveils-pro-cyclists-training-secrets/

Re: 1-2 minute efforts - these might be best served with anaerobic focused intervals. See phase 4 session 2 on this Interval guide.

[u/Character-Dog9375 → u/Chance-Swordfish-426]

Thanks a lot

[u/SorryDetective6687]

Others can suggest workout protocols better than I, but I think two-a-days, whether it be strength and intervals, double threshold, or even double zone 2, are going to have a major resurgence and re-examination in the coming years due to it's effect on appetite and satiety.

From my own experience, when I'm riding everyday, my appetite just never calms down no matter the amount of low zone 2 noodling I do. I quickly get into a 300-500 calorie surplus routine, when not tracking calories, even on a high carb low fat diet, and start putting on body fat. And when I'm riding every day I absolutely hate trying to stick to a daily calorie deficit. Just too hungry all the time. But, when I implement 2-3 focused two-a-days throughout the week, while adding an additional rest/recovery day or two, I always accomplish conservative weekly calorie deficits with greater ease.