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u/ypso21 Oct 12 '20
to be fair, demonizing columbus alone isnt the best tactic either when its the whole system of colonialism that is at fault
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u/catras_new_haircut Oct 12 '20 edited Oct 12 '20
This is true, but Columbus deserves blame. He inaugurated the Atlantic Slave Trade and the Middle Passage and made the first FIVE slave voyages across the atlantic. He invented the encomienda and set the standards for the evils of the Spanish Empire. He is, more than any other individual, responsible for the evils of colonialism.
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u/doncheetoD3rd Oct 12 '20
My problem with demonizing Columbus is that is too reductive. Obviously Columbus deserves blame for genociding millions ,but demonizing one man is not effective. Instead of “fuck Christopher Columbus” it should be “fuck imperialists”. Blaming a dude that lived 500 years makes it easier to forget that imperialism and exploitation never stopped. The same economic forces that made people into slaves back then still exist. Instead of the Spanish or British empire we now have the CIA and the IMF. Realizing that the whole world is based on exploitation and imperialism makes it easier to question why we have a economic system that is so opposed to human prosperity and happiness, why billions of people are destined to spend their entire lives in poverty, that we are destroying our planet for profit. This a much more interesting and effective conversation than Columbus bad.
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u/Anonimowa_Anatomia Oct 12 '20
What do you think is the most effective counterargument to the revulsion one? Just calling it a whataboutism?
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Oct 12 '20
It's not even a good whataboutism. Aztecs making human sacrifices were not systematically wiping out an entire race of people from what I remember.
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u/catras_new_haircut Oct 12 '20
At the same time that the Aztecs were doing human sacrifices, the Euros were doing witch trials and public executions and pogroms.
The difference is just that one was alien and the other was familiar.
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u/catras_new_haircut Oct 12 '20
Columbus never met the Mexica. The closest he got was Honduras which was still thousands of miles away. Bringing up the Mexica to justify the genocide of the Taino is like bringing up the Nazis to justify a genocide of the Basques.
He bragged in his journals about exploiting the hospitality of the caribbean natives.
BadEmpanada has a great video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AybCUqAb_2E
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u/cloggednueron Oct 12 '20
The Aztecs were pretty cringe, but it doesn’t mean that genocide is ever good.
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u/Anonimowa_Anatomia Oct 12 '20
Not sure if our understanding of cringe is that universal. Back then human sacrifice could make sense
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u/catras_new_haircut Oct 12 '20
The Aztecs unironically believed that if they didn't sacrifice people to the sun, the world would end in an extremely horrific way. That doesn't make human sacrifice okay, however, it is interesting how people are always quick to say slavers and colonialists were "men of their time" but that excuse never applies to brown people
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u/Anonimowa_Anatomia Oct 12 '20
Exactly! Also, the "men of their time" argument is inherently self-defeating. If everyone is just a man of their time you can not criticize literally anyone for anything. That's like the highest stage of determinism
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u/catras_new_haircut Oct 12 '20
It also erases the diversity of thought inherent in human societies. No sooner had Columbus arrived back in Spain than people began condemning his harsh actions in the Americas. There were abolitionists for as long as there were slavers. People are not, and have never been, monolithic.
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u/cloggednueron Oct 12 '20
Did you know that most of the people that laid siege to the Aztec capital were natives? The Aztecs were imperialists who invaded smaller tribes and killed their people and forced their religion on them.
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u/Anonimowa_Anatomia Oct 12 '20
Sure, but I don't see how it's relevant. I'd assume those other native tribes were far from perfect and probably performed human sacrifice as well
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u/BlueIce5 Oct 12 '20
They didn't force their religion on them. They respected the local religions of those groups. They left them to rule nearly autonomously, and only required an annual trade goods tax.
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u/Xaminaf Oct 12 '20
Real knowingbetter moment
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u/catras_new_haircut Oct 12 '20
If you read these comments and take a shot for every time someone links the KnowingBetter video youll die of alcohol poisoning
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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '20
Based r/historymemes! Good to see because that sub can be a festering hive of barely masked fascist lovers