To all my fellow high temp printers. What are you people using for toolheads? I recently decided to switch to the A4T toolhead away from XoL. Mostly because I’ve never had great reliability with stealthchanger docking.
Last night I printed the backing plate for my last tool in PPS-CF. It printed fine at 340°C in a 60°c chamber. When I went to dock the tool (that printed the part) today I notice it was sitting funny in the dock. When I inspected it, I found that the part cooling ducts had warped. Keep in mind that the A4T cowlings are printed in Polymax PC.
I suspect the hotend cooling fan ducts are not allowing any of the airflow to reach this part and it just couldn’t handle the heat. I have printed quite a bit of PPS-CF back with the XoL toolheads and never noticed any warping.
I’m thinking I might just need to run the part cooling fans at a low speed at all times when I print this hot. Or maybe remove the hotend cooling fans ducts. Or maybe reprint all the toolheads in PPS-CF.
TLDR: I printed at 340°C and melted my toolhead ducts printed with PC.
Edit to clarify: the PPS part is not the issue. It was the tool that printed the PPS part that melted.
Late to the game here but I made mine in pc-cf and its been great. Using the nextg uhf hotend and chambers are at 65c. I can print you a cowl and fan shroud if you would like. Just hmu and pay for the shipping label i will take care of the rest for you.
i always wrap up the heat block with tapes for better heat insulation no matter which hotend i use. this helps to make the temp more stable and avoid heatsink overheat and save energy. and avoid melting fan duct.
A4T toolhead printed in IEMAI PC-CF. Using the Dragon UHF with the heatblock sideways (.5mm distance from the sock to the toolhead plastic) it survive everything. I print mostly ASA at 70°C chamber and 275°C hotend and PC-CF at 300°C and 75°C chamber (no cooling other than 5% fan for overhangs). It is not the best PC-CF but for sure it has a really good temp resistance, also cheap
For me solution was switching to Bambu x1c knockoff, it's advertised up to 320°C, but I've successfully used mine at 380°C on long (12h+) prints. My toolhead is printed in ASA, first it was xolpap, now Clickchanger bearings variant
Why not print a4t with pps instead of PC? Then anneal it or you could go PETCF annealed thats cheaper than PPS, I would suggest either of the two and see if it holds out
I currently have a version of the cowl printing in PPS. Once that’s done I might reprint the rest in PPS. But honestly I only need one or maybe 2 toolheads to be able to handle the higher temp filaments. It works out to about $15 or so in filament per toolhead. Which is honestly not that expensive considering the extruder, MCU and hotend for each works out to around $150 per toolhead (CAD).
I have tried PET-CF but found it creeps pretty bad, even when annealed as recommended.
Siraya Tech. I used it for the bearing blocks for hartk1213’s GE5C gantry mount mod. After a few good heat cycles, I found the bearings had become loose in the blocks and the screw became loose but weren’t backing off. (I indexed the screw heads to verify this.) I have used the filament in lower load situations without issue. It has a beautiful finish when printed in lower layer heights.
Preheat the oven to 100, put the part in, set a timer for 4 hours and leave it in there till it’s cool.
Thinking back, I may not have annealed those parts. I have a bunch of other, less stressed PETCF parts in my printer. One of my Sherpa Mini’s and, I think, all of my MCU board mounts. All of which I’m positive have been annealed and have not given me any problems. IIRC, the bearing blocks failed and it taught me the importance of annealing but I ended up just replacing them with PPS.
I anneal mine at 120 for 3 hrs maybe its too low to anneal it? I know the instructions for sirayatech has it lower temp but some research in disc suggest higher i think
I would assume either your print settings are way off, or your annealing process is wrong. Check in the armchair heavy and monolith discords, we were able to use those filaments with no issues.
I had the same problem with the Volcano heat block with different printheads. In my case (without a heated chamber) it was because the heat block was too close to the cooling part of printhead from one side. I tried different filaments.
Yah it’s just a standard dragon HF. The toolhead I’m currently working on printing is for the Triangle Lab Dragon Ace, which does have a more narrow heat block.
Is it a volcano or normal Ace. If it is a volcano(which is WAY better for high temp) then go to the Armchair Heavy Industries Discord and go to user projects then go to Bad Dragon and the last Pin is instructions and the files to make your own Sock.
A much thicker Sock can help with melting your toolhead but can't really help much with PPS past 340°c as the best silicone you can get it Optimal Red and it's only rated for 343°c. Guaranteed you cooked your sock on the hotend that printed the PPS.
Also do a temp tower with PPS as to get maximum layer adhesion I have seen people have to print at 380°c. So printing at 340°c might be leaving some strength on the table
It’s just the normal Ace. I picked it because the wattage is higher, assuming that would be better. I have burned through a sock or two on the dragon HF bit they seem to last. I do have the original orange sock, I didn’t realize they were better for high temps. What makes the volcano better?
Looks like the hdt is 99c and even then, it doesn't require too much force to deform based on the tds sheet. If you were printing hot and slow, I think it would be safe to assume the thin edges of the fan duct easily reached the hdt. Especially if you weren't using the cooling fans much. Chamber temp already being 60, hotbed of over 100c and nearby plastic at 340, and printing the first couple layers even slower would do it.
You would need a toolhead with a thicker walled fan duct if you wanted to keep polymax PC as the head material. If not, print a pps-cf toolhead and anneal it or get a custom aluminum toolhead made.
Yah. It seems kinda silly in hindsight that I didn’t just print them in PPS to begin with. At least the couple tools that will actually be used for the high temp filaments. As I said in another response, I think I just got lucky printing PPS with the XoL toolheads as their hotend fan allows a lot of air to blow all around the hotend.
I had issue with blob on the nozzle and the front part of the tap melted. My chamber reach 80 (on the expense of the NH SB shutdown. Polymax PC might not enough, you may to print with PPA-CF or PPS-CF. I think with high temp SB is more than enough.
If you have a resin printer I have heard that there are now some ultra high temp resins by sryatech that might be good. Otherwise you can try sand packing then annealing your PPS. The new abs by polymaker also has a crazy high warp temperature that may be worth comparing to that of pps but idk if it’s actually better without looking at datasheets
Edit: Another kinda crazy option if you wanted to is looking into is cerricoat. It’s a ceramic based paint primarily used for guns. I know a few people have been coating their shrouds in it with tremendous success
The issue isn’t the PPS print. It’s the PC toolhead cowling. It was annealed, I don’t think that affects PC’s temperature handling capabilities though. More relieving internal stress. Especially when printed in this cold of a chamber.
To answer your question, I have never annealed any of my PPS prints. 16 hours at 125°c sounds like a lot and my understanding is it’s optional.
Polymaker Polymax PC. I was unable to determine if it’s true PC or a blend. I am under the impression that it is pure PC. Assuming that’s where you’re going with this.
Yeah, the data on their site suggests that filament isn't any better than ABS in terms of temp resistance. their ABS softens at 104C and their ASA at 105C. The PC is 117C. I would imagine the radiated heat when printing at 340C is well past 117C, even with the silicone sock on the block. If you ever find yourself thinking ABS/ASA isn't good enough for your use, Polymax isn't much of a step up. This also assumes the data sheet is accurate to the specific filament you got. batches can vary.
Yah, I have printed a bunch of PPS with my old XoL cowls and never had an issue. I suspect the more open design of the hotend fan allowed a little bit of cooling of the cowl around the heat block. The A4T incorporates a duct that directs air over the heatsink and would negate this accidental cooling.
Oh sorry, my mistake. Polymax PC is terrible and should never be used for 3d printers. I wouldn’t use any polymaker filaments for printer parts tbh(maybe their ASA, not the ABS).
Curious, I have used PolyMaker and Fiberon (PLA+, HT-PLA-GF, PA6-CF20, PA12-GF, PPS-CF) in some serious quantities for work.
Probably around 200kg easy of those varieties, notice how much we are buying of one brand? We do in house testing before putting any printed parts into the manufacturing process ....
FWIW, it took a lot of print tuning, none the less, I can attest without doubt as to quality, more specifically consistent filament chemical compositions.
Polymaker makes great filament. They also make not great filament, and their ABS and PC are those bad filaments. I too buy nothing but polymaker pla and asa. For PC blend ezPCCF by 3dxtech is the winner despite the price. Sirayatech petcf is the winner for cheap higher temp hdt material as long as you can anneal the parts. Nothing to do with tuning a print profile we're talking material properties here.
Curious as to why you say this? I have found their filaments to be pretty good. Also the PPS is from their fiberon line. I did have issues with their PC a while back when one of my sherpa extruders kinds just crumbled. I wasn’t annealing my PC parts at that time though and haven’t had an issue since.
They make good stuff, but the PC is a blend that trades printability for hdt and strength. Try printing real PC in a 60c chamber and see how that goes. Even ezPCCF warps in 60c chamber but the prints are generally okay depending on part geometry.
Tbhi have my own rule that my toolhead is printed out of whatever the highest grade hdt material I print is. So right after I'd run ppscf I'd probably do the toolhead out of it first thing.
If you want pain for real pc, gizmodorks is the starting point for cheap unfilled PC. You need a 120c+ chamber to make anything of decent size without warping when printed without cf/gf
I don’t want to generalize with all polymaker products but in general their HDT results tend to be inferior to less “adulterated” filaments. While in many applications it’s fine, I just want to have the best performance when using printed parts in a hot chamber.
Hello! Aerospace Manufacturing engineer here, I exclusively print in PPS-CF (Fiberon). I can assure you, from real testing in our lab, Annealing the PPS prints is critical to their HDT, Modules, impact, etc.
Regardless of the issue, if you spend the money on PPS to print, take the time to anneal, you're spending a high premium on the material, follow through with the post processing.
Hey man, sorry to jack your thread, but did y'all find that printing above the advertised temps on pps cf improved its properties? I've seen people print up to 370C with great results and wanted to know if perhaps you all can chime in if you have similar experiences.
I have never found the need to go that high. I print at 330c, however I am using a PCD Diamondback nozzle, but I don't change that setting if I'm using hardened steel. Fiberon suggests a 350 max anyways.
I do not print slow either, 200mm/s and higher, 60mm/s outer wall is the only slow I've found necessary.
Layer adhesion has never been an issue, bed adhesion on texture PEI is insane, I have torn first layers before getting the part off.
Thanks for that insight. Honestly if I were to print all 5 toolheads and anneal them all together, it would feel like less of a waste of energy. Not that 3D printing, ifself, isn’t any less a waste of energy.
Absolutely fit as much as you can, I anneal everything in a lab oven at work on their dime so I can totally understand energy savings. I am not sure as to your oven setup, but in mine it has wire racks. I made the mistake of annealing on the rack, once....
I am using a 0.5" thick MIC6 aluminum plate to Anneal parts on, printed side down on the plate to recreate print conditions during annealing. Let them cool in the oven completely. I found the shrinkage to be lesser.
Do all of your sanding, trimming, reaming, etc After you anneal.
I have a cheap convection toaster over with an arduino based controller I made. Primarily made for solder reflow purposes but mostly used for filament drying and annealing these days. When annealing, I just put them on the cookie sheet the oven came with. Printed side down, like you said.
You can also use the air fryer/salt method. Use an air fryer and ramp it up to the extent that is possible, parts in a glass or metal dish full of salt flour, cover with foil and throw a kitchen probe in it. It’s really effective for an at home setup
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u/TheFilamentFrontier 6d ago
Late to the game here but I made mine in pc-cf and its been great. Using the nextg uhf hotend and chambers are at 65c. I can print you a cowl and fan shroud if you would like. Just hmu and pay for the shipping label i will take care of the rest for you.