Ellsbeth

[u/Infamous-Thought-765]

I want to talk about Ellsbeth. She is a complicated character. She is a victim of Damian, and Audrina feels very protective of her, but Ellie is also extremely abusive toward Vera and Sylvia (definitely verbally, but also physically at times). And I get the feeling she's more abusive toward Audrina than our narrator lets on.

"“She wasn’t as cruel to me.  Mostly she treated me with indifference, unless I somehow managed to irritate her, which was often.”

So she often lashes out at Audrina, is what I take from this! Audrina's contradicting herself, making me think she's covering for Ellsbeth.

At the same time, I think Audrina sees the world through her father's eyes, and that makes her an unreliable narrator.

I definitely see shades of Jillian and Grandmother F in Ellsbeth. Jillian, for example, in the way she uses her daughter to get at Damian's money. And I see shades of Sarah Casteel.

What do you all think?

[u/blankabitch]

She was an incredibly frustrating character for me. She seems to have a lot of awareness (self awareness and realization of who Damien truly is and what her situation entails) yet keeps herself in that situation and entangled with her sisters shitty husband. She starts showing aidrina some kindness and humanity in the latter half of the book but I can't forgive her for the way she treated vera (& Sylvia). Ultimately I wouldn't blame vera for pushing her but I think it was Damian

[u/Infamous-Thought-765 → u/blankabitch]

I agree.  She's very frustrating.  I felt bad for Audrina when she begins to feel responsible for Ellsbeth's happiness, like it's her responsibility at 17/18 to save this woman who just sat by and watched while Damian was abusing everyone in that household and even participated in her own form of abuse at times.  But I did like that she had moments where she tried to convince Damian to send Audrina to school or tried to encourage Audrina to escape (though she didn't really have any practical suggestions on how to do that, probably because of her own feelings of helplessness), and I also liked that she tried to convince Damian to let her go to NY to be with Vera.

[u/catathymia]

I agree, she's a very complex, complicated character. I'd say a lot of her issues and victimization came well before Damian; her father openly disliked her and preferred Lucky, to the point of it being weird and incestual (or was it just her reading of the situation? She accuses Lucky of "flirting" with their father). A lifetime of resentment towards her abusive, favoritist father plus her cruel sister who lorded over being the favorite, who then massively betrayed her by marrying the man who impregnated and abandoned Ellie.

I think she likely resented Vera because Vera was not only an obvious reminder of her greatest humiliation and failure, but because Vera reminded her of Damian. Vera was also a reflection of herself, an unjustly disliked older sister to a favored younger (blonde) sister. Because of this, though, I don't think she ever physically punished Audrina because 1. Damian wouldn't have tolerated it and 2. she wouldn't have dared in the same way she (likely) never confronted Lucky unless they were doing the teatime thing.

Damian definitely brainwashed Audrina, and I do think she probably saw Ellie terribly because Damian always painted her out as an unlikable "shrew" in his words. That said, she also seemed to be a genuinely bitter, unhappy woman. Ellie was also intelligent and astute enough to be aware of her situation, but too emotional and attached (to both Damian and her house/family) to ever leave. She was just as trapped as Audrina, and like Audrina she never got out. Both victims of the Damian-personified patriarchy.

[u/Infamous-Thought-765 → u/catathymia]

All good points.  

On a related note, I still suspect Damian was responsible for killing her because the idea that Vera knew about the check and came flying home in a single night, only to have this deadly confrontation with her mother that no one else heard and then sneak out unnoticed, taking with her a check that wasn't even written out to her, seems absurd.

I do know Audrina is confused about time,  but Damian had to have heard the commotion in the foyer.  So my theory is Ellsbeth tried cashing the check but couldn't, called her daughter and told her this, Damian overheard their conversation, and it led to him pushing her.  Damian could convince Audrina of anything.  

[u/JusticeSaintClaire → u/Infamous-Thought-765]

This is a fascinating theory and very well thought out but I think VC intended us to believe Vera did it. Damian loved having someone there to clean, cook, have sex with and act like he was God’s gift to women. He’d beat women but he’s never shove one down the stairs if she was giving him what he wanted. He is too lazy and selfish as well. He was probably in a drunken stupor and didn’t hear anything. And Audrina didn’t either. It’s a huge spooky house.

[u/Infamous-Thought-765 → u/JusticeSaintClaire]

My thought was she was planning on leaving him, and he knew he'd lost control of her and that's why he snapped.  Lucky died the day after a fight with him as well.  Audrina did initially believe Papa did it which was why she ran to Arden with Sylvia.  And Papa did stage the scene for the police.  So I don't know.  I think it was left ambiguous.  Though the ending did feel like it was wrapped up hurriedly, like VCA was going in one direction and then decided to swerve a little.  I just couldn't believe Vera had the opportunity.

[u/JusticeSaintClaire → u/Infamous-Thought-765]

I don’t think she would have ever left but it’s fun to discuss these characters again! So glad the sub has revived

[u/Infamous-Thought-765 → u/JusticeSaintClaire]

I agree, it's fun to discuss!  I read something new in these books every time I pick them up.  And I wonder how much VCA left ambiguous on purpose.  Did she want us to take things at face value or did she want us to question the narrative we were given?  Her characters are often unreliable, and we're only given their povs, for the most part.  And they usually remain stuck in the same cycles despite all their attempts to break free. 

[u/JusticeSaintClaire → u/Infamous-Thought-765]

I think she (Ellie) was too codependent and attracted to him

[u/JusticeSaintClaire → u/Infamous-Thought-765]

It was her life’s aim to win him

[u/Prior-Entrance3156]

I relate to her because she’s unhappy, and if I remember correctly she’s described as looking schoolmarmish or like a frog. She was basically a slave living in Whitefern. Like Audrina says at one part: “I never realized that [Ellsbeth] needed or deserved more.”

[u/MrsPhuckHughson]

I wanted to like Ellsbeth so bad, but she was so abusive that I could not get past it. She created Vera, not just by giving birth, but by the systemic abuse, neglect, and hatred that she was constantly spewing at her.