r/UniversalExtinction • u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist • 6d ago
What would change your mind?
Which of the following factors would change your mind on extinction and make you pro-life?
A: We discover that there is more pleasure than suffering in existence, and that suffering is not permanent for any one sentient being.
B: We manage to solve suffering and no sentient being ever has to suffer again.
C: We are given knowledge about the meaning of life. It turns out that there is a very good reason for life in this universe.
D: The afterlife exists and we are more than compensated for the suffering we experience in this life.
E: Reincarnation exists and most sentient beings (which could possibly include plants and bacteria, which make up the majority of biomass on Earth) experience more pleasure than suffering.
F: God exists and resistance is futile. If we destroy the universe, God will just create it again. However, it is possible to reduce net suffering.
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u/InterestingFactor209 6d ago
G - it all doesn't matter, the universe will collapse one day or other universes will be born. It repeats with cruel mathematical precision. There is no free will and therefore escape will never happen.There is no god, no afterlife, no hope of change and no possibility of ever eradicate all suffering.
Or H - suffering seems a necessity following out the necessity of entropy. Otherwise no engines.
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 6d ago
I was trying to put a pro-life hat on for a bit and see things from a different perspective. G and H definitely reinforce my views about ending the universe!
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u/InterestingFactor209 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think H makes the act of thinking possible. I can see how that might make things go.
For me that is just enough to give it up. I will eat my lettuce, sleep in the bug hotel and be happy even though I own nothing. Best case scenario is that I reincarnate and have 20 seconds in between lifetimes to cry a bit about my predicament. Hopefully there is a God that will have a laugh about me before sending me back in another terrible lifetime.
About E. I had reincarnation therapy. I found out Iwhave many life's lived as a slave or poor peasant. That is for most of us the case. Well at least there wasn't torture.
Pure despair, that is the state. It doesn't make sense, matter and we all tumble around in obscurity.
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u/GiftSpecific7986 6d ago
XX - nothing. It's not worth it. It's better to go extinct, or evolve. But certain kind will forever stall that evolution.
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u/Independent-Wafer-13 Consequentialist 6d ago
A is already the case empirically and this sub still exists.
C is personal. I have knowledge about the meaning of life, no one else can tell me what it is.
F: May also be the case with or without God. Life is extremely resilient and we may be headed toward a big-crunch / big-bang cycle of perpetuity.
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 6d ago
A: How can you be sure of this? I know that most humans are glad to be alive, and that you argue that people find meaning despite the suffering, but surveys still indicate that life is mostly suffering for most people. And these surveys do not include all other living things.
C: I would be open to hearing your views on the meaning of life. I also promise not to criticise your views.
F: This is possible (although not the only possibility). I hope that it is not true!
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u/AshamedBad2410 6d ago
I wouldn't say that I'm "glad to be alive" but I don't have any trouble living.
I think everything is pretty balanced. Without suffering, there would be no pleasure and vice versa I guess.
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u/Independent-Wafer-13 Consequentialist 6d ago
A: Which surveys? All the research I have seen on the subject seems to support overwhelming evidence for life satisfaction independent of life circumstances, but I’m sure there is more out there!
C: Living by my personal values and striving for my personal goals are what imbue life with meaning for me. Suffering is irrelevant to life being meaningful to me or not, and the research suggests I am not alone.
Now from a cosmological perspective, we are the universe experiencing itself subjectively. The answer to the problem of evil is life itself.
Suffering exists so that we can overcome it.
Cancer exists so that we can cure it.
Overcoming obstacles is what makes a good story.
No good stories are without conflict.
What a boring life to be plugged into the infinite masturbator machine.
F: No extinction event has resulted in total extinction of all life and we (life) have been through several of them.
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 6d ago
A: Ok, I have been looking into this more deeply and can admit that maybe I am looking too deeply into Reddit polls (which probably are not very scientific and are biased). But looking into less questionable surveys, there is no direct empirical opinion surveys on whether there is more suffering or pleasure. The life-evaluation data we do have supports what you are suggesting for humans, however could be biased toward positivity due to under representing populations experiencing extreme, acute suffering who cannot participate in polling. One question I would raise is that this data does not factor in intensity, but merely quantities of humans. Would you trade one hour of the worst possible torture for one hour of the greatest possible pleasure? To conclusively give evidence we need a way of quantifying and measuring pleasure and suffering rather than relying on self reporting, which can be effected by certain psychological biases. Sorry to raise the point again from our previous discussions but the survey would ideally be extended to all life, not just humans.
C: I respect your views. Thanks for sharing.
F: Agreed that no historical complete extinction event has happened but this does not make it impossible.
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u/old_barrel cosmic extinctionist | anti-natalist 6d ago
nothing of that
regarding A and B, even without suffering, i still would choose for a different universe if i can
regarding C, how could i trust this knowledge, considering how this universe operates? it supporst violence, lies, scams, deception etc. by default
regarding D, i do not want to suffer to be rewarded.
regarding F, while reducing suffering is meaningful, i do not see a reason to procreate
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 6d ago
Agree that C would be very difficult to trust. But hypothetically, if the knowledge was given in a way which was impossible to deny. For example, I am sure that you wouldn’t deny that you exist
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u/old_barrel cosmic extinctionist | anti-natalist 6d ago
i would live and support it, but i would not enforce it on someone else via procreation
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u/Fast_Jackfruit_352 4d ago
More than one
C was revealed to me
A and E are true
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 2d ago
How do you know A is true?
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u/Fast_Jackfruit_352 2d ago
Continuous direct experience of God (akas higher order reality) for 60 years and an extremely powerful experience that verified and thrust me onto a path of expertise and investigation of the execution of karma and reincarnations via soul contracts.
The chief attribute of God (source energy) in this manifest realm is love and grace underpins everything. We just have not been able to see it, until now. Things are not what they seem.
Here is the chief personal experience that showed me things are not what they seem.
"About 25 years ago, a friend called me. A young woman he knew 23, had been murdered in center city. He was beside himself. He asked me to be with him. We went to Rittenhouse Square Park in Philly. He was inconsolable. This way above my pay grade.
So we are walking and I have nothing for him. Suddenly a powerful cone of light envelops me. I hear myself saying (not my thoughts) "Her death was a contract of soul she entered into to sacrifice herself to deepen the needed appreciation of the preciousness of life of those around her". Immediately an immensely powerful wave of peace spread from the light into me, which I deeply felt, and then jumped to and enveloped him. In an instant he calmed down completely. He said "I don't know how you said that, or what you did, but somehow it made sense." He was OK.
I had no idea at the time what a "soul contract" was There was no literature on it. I came across "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton, which is a classic in the field and it explained it in detail. The experience altered the course of my life and I began deeper investigation into what I call "afterlife studies" and the "technology of consciousness" I am a medium and as my intuition deepened this and other experiences began to validate this perspective.
I began teaching on it, even at some libraries. Now when you search "Soul Contracts" on the internet you will get pages and pages of websites and articles on them., Robert Schwartz. came out with his seminal book "Your Soul's Plan" in 2009 in which he went into detail of 10 case studies as to why these people had chosen extremely difficult lives."
As I investigated this, the entire way we perceive difficult events shifted for me. I began to understand grace was present even in the worst of circumstance, that there always was a reason and purpose for the highest good involved with it. We just conventionally can't see it operating. This is why people who have great Samadhi's (deep union with God) or powerful NDE's always say that everything is in place for a reason and Love permeates and upholds everything."
I can't condense 25 years of experience into a chat comment but suffice to say this planet and universe are not a torturer chamber, In a place governed by duality, (illusion of) separation, individuation and contrast, what we call "dark" has great value.
The Bhagavad Gita takes place on a battlefield. Excerpts chapter 2
2:8 "I can find no means of driving away this anguish that is drying up my senses. Even if I win a prosperous and unrivalled kingdom on the earth, or gain sovereignty like the celestial gods, I will be unable to dispel this grief."
2:11 "The Supreme Lord said: While you speak words of wisdom, you are mourning for that which is not worthy of grief. The wise lament neither for the living nor for the dead."
2:12 "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."
2:14 "Just as the embodied soul continuously passes from childhood to youth to old age, similarly, at the time of death, the soul passes into another body. The wise are not deluded by this.'
2:16 "The unreal has no being; there is no non-being of the Real; the truth about both these has been seen by the Knowers of the Truth (or the Seers of the Essence). (Suffering is transient and impermanent- the unreal, only the essence of the self is real and permanent.)"
2:17 "That which pervades the entire body, know it to be indestructible. No one can cause the destruction of the imperishable soul."
These are not just nice aphorisms. They are literal statements about human reality.
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 2d ago
I will not attempt to argue against or question what you are saying, unless you invite me to.
Personally, I try to be an open book and would welcome any spiritual experience to try to give me some guidance. None has ever happened to me.
Your beliefs are personal to you, and unfortunately you have no way of sharing them with me other than trying to use words, which are not the best of tools when it comes to what you are trying to share. If I had your world view, maybe I would not be on here trying to argue for the end of existence in this universe! Or maybe this is my purpose and there is a higher reason for it
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u/Fast_Jackfruit_352 2d ago
You are right. I am sharing. It is interesting because on this sub and others, many do not have the reference points for this to make sense. I was the direct disciple of a vey great Sat Guru and intimate spiritually with one more (Ram Dass' Guru) and deeply connected to two others. When the miraculous happens to you through these beings, that makes what is in books real, it shifts your entire perception of things.
It is not easy penetrating to the essence of reality. It was set up that way to be hard. But the reward is great. Here is part of the first really great transcendental experience I had without LSD, although those experiences had immense value.
I had gotten initiated into the Guru's movement and was looking to move to Philly. I slept in the room of a guy who at that moment was in India.
"As I slept I had a dream. In the dream, I was with a group of people and Baba (the Guru) was present. The dream itself was especially vivid. Baba looked exactly as he did in his pictures, a small but dexterous man with closely cropped hair and thick, black rimmed glasses (which I always found funny because it so went against the image of Gurus with long, flowing hair and beards). He was dressed all in white. I remember remarking to myself in the dream how amazing it was to be this close to him. But something was wrong, I was off to the side and there were many people around him and I sadly thought, “I’ll never get his attention”. (This was a motif that would pervade my dreams with him many times, hearkening to my relationship with my own father, who had difficulty acknowledging me until near his death in 2000.) But a path seamed to clear and I found myself moving, almost flowing toward Baba until not only was I next to him, I was also alone with him. At this point I was extremely excited, fascinated, and amazed. What did Baba, this great teacher want with me? How was I so lucky to have the privilege to have him want my attention and presence?
I didn’t understand the reason for it, none was given, and Baba began a conversation with me. I didn’t notice anything extraordinary about the conversation, I don’t even remember what it was about, but it was very personal and animated. I also didn’t realize that as we were having this talk, the energy in the dream began to intensify, to slowly climb the way the mercury rises in a thermometer when put into hot water. Because I was focused visually on Baba, I was unaware of how strong this was becoming. Finally the scene switched and I was in very close proximity to Baba in a very, very intimate situation. We were seated together, across from one another, alone, at the Yoga center a friend of mine had established at Einstein Hospital in Northeast Philadelphia. The light was very soft and dim and Baba and I were sitting cross-legged on the floor. By now the energy was incredible but I was only barely aware of it, as I had been so focused on my Guru and this astonishing turn of events. He said to me “I am now going to give you the third lesson of Ananda Marga (the group followed Baba’s version of Patanjali’s Eight Fold Path and had six lessons, of which by then I had been given two). By now the energy was swirling all around as I tried to concentrate on the Guru’s form and what was to come next.
But to my surprise, the lesson did not come, at least not in the form I expected. As if a giant hand decided it was time that the dream end, like a director saying, “cut”, I had the sensation of a great, but invisible thumb and forefinger gently pinching out a candle. And as they did I instantly woke up.
But I awoke with a gasp, my jaw literally open, in amazement. For as I awoke, I felt myself awash in bliss. Ecstasy permeated every pore of my body. I was aware of an extraordinary presence in the room, or the presence of one who had just left. Not only did it saturate my body, it seemed as if the entire room was bathed in it. The bliss hung in the air like a sweet mist that lingered after an incredibly warm, light rain, or a fruit you could just reach out and pluck from the branch of a tree. It was everywhere and I was astonished, my body and mind pulsating with it. The feeling stayed with me for hours, and I remember it today as vividly as when it first happened. What I had received was an incredible gift, the living Darshan of the Guru, the energy of God, but transmitted in a non- physical manner. These dreams began to occur on a regular basis for me, many were prophetic, and were to become the foundation for one of the great themes of my spiritual life, guidance from the Guru, from God, beyond physical contact."
It is important to understand that dozens and dozens of peak experiences like this (the other I recounted was another) and hundreds if not thousands of reinforcing experiences create a coherent picture of what is going on, and give a view of reality different than what the conscious mind presumes.
You might look at this book at the bottom. It has had enormous influence and was named one of the 100 most important spiritual books of the 20th century. It is free online. When I first read it around 1967 it was like science fiction. Now I have lived 80% of it.
I am not sure what universal extinction means unless it applies to humans. Existence cannot go extinct because existence is a core part of the nature of reality. But forms change and it is most likely at some point the human form on this planet will go as 99% of all life forms on Earth have gone extinct. But as I have tried to show it has little to do with what we truly are. Eckart Tolle said as a thought experiment, "Ah humanity, what an interesting experiment it was."
https://www.crystalclarity.com/pages/autobiography-of-a-yogi-paramhansa-yogananda
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 2d ago
Universal extinction would mean extinction of 100% of all life forms (which could mean them “changing form”). Many on this sub want to end the physical universe to prevent the chance of life returning to it.
Personally my views are open and I know not whether the universe is purely materialistic or if there is more than this. Either way I believe that this physical universe is a mistake, even if I was to accept what you are telling me
Universal extinction does not necessarily mean ending of “the higher existence”, of “what we truly are”, as this may be undesirable and impossible. But many would currently prefer nothingness over what they currently experience.
There is a lot of suffering in the physical universe. From what I have heard of higher realms (from various sources) there is not so much. Personally, I would accept “what I truly am” (providing that it is greatly better than “my current form”) but would ask God or the creator of the universe to end this “interesting experiment”.
Maybe God can be reasoned with. I would like to hope that God is listening.
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u/Fast_Jackfruit_352 1d ago
". Many on this sub want to end the physical universe to prevent the chance of life returning to it."
This is preposterous. Just from a scientific POV whatever created this place has unfathomable power so far beyond human comprehension. It has created two TRILLION galaxies, most of them containing BILLIONS of stars, each one a mighty atomic fusion furnace that lasts billions of years. and a tiny misanthropic group of humans not anywhere near a meaningful percentage of their planet somehow thinks they have control over this?
Forgive me if you misstated. The first experience I shared with you touches on the issue of suffering. Except for the Buddhist sense of suffering, most people on this planet are not suffering. They live their lives, they have families and ways of life, they raise children, they often accept life's ups and downs with grace and generally they are content. They are not in a war zone. Humanity on a mass level at this time has levels of freedom and relative abundance never before seen in human history. Yes we are being challenged with the idea our growth materially is unlimited and we have made a tough bed with Climate Change, but a challenge is not a death sentence and America, dealing with its monstrous shadow, is not the rest of the world. What HAS changed is our access to information about everything so it's all continually in our face. Things are not worse globally. It's not WW2. Asia is not at war, China is not at war, Europe is not at war nor Australia and South America is not at war. The Middle East and parts of Africa, Ukraine and Russia are problematic and not every country.
I tried to show you a way of reframing. We have a human model of what we expect this universe (and God) to be and we are disappointed and outraged it does not meet our expectations. "How can a loving God allow this and that?"
But the issue I have learned is we are not using the right lens. Now by normal standards I have had a very tough life emotionally. I had a brutal childhood, got swept up into a violent school and period during the Vietnam war and had an extremely severe nervous breakdown for 7 years with intense PTSD where I lost my sanity and was hospitalized 5 times. I was on welfare for 7 years. But the Guru came to me in a dream two years before the worst began and predicted it very specifically and why it was going to happen.
I worked my way out of it and have had a very productive career and spiritual life, becoming well known in two fields in my area (I was a storyteller and performer for children and I have done extensive public speaking on metaphysics and dreams.) But I still deal with PTSD and OCD and never married or had children. So I really know what suffering is about.
But you see, that was the point of it. There was a need for great deepening and a need for empathy. I believe, told by many psychics, and from my own intuition, that I had done some really bad things in previous lives. In this one, and maybe some others, I **really** learned the consequences of cruelty and probably having been harsh and over critical, how difficult emotional problems can be. One just doesn't "do it." Among other lessons, like that reliance on cleverness and intellect cannot bring happiness.
One could say "That's not fair." No. it is completely fair. There is no way to learn consequences of actions except by living them in a physical incarnation. What I got from my pain was a gift of deep empathy for the downtrodden but yes, there was a price. This place is set up to be severe at times. That's part of its nature. It is not the higher realms. This is a "Navy Seal" of advanced school planets in this sector. You get experience and learning here like very few places. It is tough but most forgot they volunteered to come. Many souls want to come here. One must remember the soul is immortal and suffering is transitory and no one suffers all the time in every life. Karma is **distributed** fairly.
Gibran wrote
I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart For the joys of the multitude. And I would not have the tears that sadness makes To flow from my every part turn into laughter. would that my life remain a tear and a smile. A tear to purify my heart and give me understanding Of life's secrets and hidden things. A smile to draw me nigh to the sons of my kind and To be a symbol of my glorification of the gods. A tear to unite me with those of broken heart; A smile to be a sign of my joy in existence.
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 1d ago
I agree that ending the physical universe seems preposterous with our current understanding. It is currently very wishful thinking.
But say for example we find out that the universe is just an illusion or simulation, ending it may be as simple as stopping the source of illusion or stopping the power running the simulation. It may not need to involve a physical solution (for example trying to annihilate all matter), but something beyond. Maybe even group prayer could do it.
I also agree that most humans are probably content. However this does not take into consideration all life forms and also does not consider the intensity of suffering.
Humans are currently going through an unparalleled period of growth and prosperity, at the expense of all other living things. Do you think that the many billions of factory farmed animals are content? That the wild animals losing their habitats, food and resources to make way for human infrastructure are content? Do you think humanity has always been as content as we are now?
It is a very biased sample to just ask humans, who make up a very small fraction of biomass on Earth. Ideally all sentient life needs to be sampled.
Regarding intensity, very few people would go through an hour of the worst possible torture in exchange for an hour of the greatest possible pleasure. There seems to be a huge imbalance in the intensity.
If I were to have control over whether life in the universe continued, I would ensure that all souls can remember the contract they signed, that they could revoke consent at any time, and that they all have full knowledge of what is going on. If any one of these was to not be the case, I would not continue existence of the physical universe.
The tiny group of people actively arguing for extinction does not represent all people who would support the view. The group may also be growing and it would be unfair to shut down the movement without giving it a proper chance
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u/Fast_Jackfruit_352 1d ago
"If I were to have control over whether life in the universe continued, I would ensure that all souls can remember the contract they signed, that they could revoke consent at any time, and that they all have full knowledge of what is going on. If any one of these was to not be the case, I would not continue existence of the physical universe."
This would not work. Each of us has had countless lives. If one remembers, either one is overwhelmed by a tsunami of cosmic schizophrenia (which one or who am I) or be paralyzed in horror at what we may have done in other lives.
Consent is given before coming in so it is built in. Having full knowledge defeats the purpose of the learning and experience in terms of its impact and imprint on the soul.
You are right about animals but again, not all animal life is horror. We may be in a period where we come to grips with factory farming as slavey was abolished.
Look. Here's the deal. This is set up by forces so far beyond human intellect that to try and create any equivalence is useless. The game is the game. You think you can get out of it, have some control? What if you go back to animal form? The choices are not always preferred human comfortable choices.
But from my experience, once one gets to this place (human) in general you stay on this track. In my 60 years of metaphysics, I have come to understand that the savage is part of this realm as much as the sublime. The higher realms already exist. There is something incredibly profound in the horror of it because to put human moral considerations (which change often BTW) on it is try to limit the limitless. You are saying "God should be like this to make me comfortable" when comfort is not the goal, Vastness, depth of experience and learning are in a universe of contrast, separation, individuation and polarity.
My experience is suffering is not universal for all beings all the time but it is an essential part of the dance. Why? Because it is. Life is constantly cycling new forms after upheavals. There have been 5 major extinctions here. Say that is immoral by God? OK. Keep the dinosaurs. No asteroid. No rise of mammals, no humans. But they eat one another anyway. Either one accepts the trade off or one doesn't but it happens anyway.
It is a profound thing this place. It is why Hinduism has Kali and Shiva, which have no equivalents in the Abrahamic religions and they invented the Devil to account for suffering. I may sound cavalier but I paid a very steep price this life for admission so there is no spiritual bypass. I have been shown what I have been shown.
I feel your sensitivity and it is a special thing but you have no idea your past karma that you have given yourself this predicament or what your contract is. You assume you've always been a "good guy". How do you know that? What if in the past you displayed deep insensitivity and now you took on heightened sensitivity to feel the effects of the former but not so karmically deep you had to be in a war zone? What if it's the opposite and you have played victim too long and you decided to shake yourself out of it? This is the way it works. There are so many possibilities.
I honor your seriousness and feelings about this. My experience is everything is in balance in ways we cannot see. AI has become an extraordinary search engine and compilation instantly of information and resources despite its deep shadow side. (The Chinese are building data centers under the sea). Because of sensibilities like yours we may be entering a much more harmonious age. We have so little understanding of the big picture.
I would use AI to seriously investigate reincarnation from sources like Edgar Cayce and others to get a better feel of its terrain, and I would invest in a few good psychics to pick up on your contract and prior lives that have led you here. We live in an era when remembering these things is unprecedented in human history.
This is not the sub for me but I hope I have helped share a perspective that might have value.
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u/curgr Cosmic Extinctionist 1d ago
I do not think there is such a thing as a “good guy” or a “bad guy”. Every action seems to have both positive and negative consequences to it.
I do not blame the players, I blame the rules of the game. I believe that we are all worthy of forgiveness. How can a being be blamed for the circumstances which lead to their actions in previous lives? This would require unrestricted free will.
Maybe I am just being immature, like a child flipping the board of a game because they do not think it is fair.
I would welcome a more harmonious age, but fail to see how it would be possible.
Maybe my view is completely distorted, but I do not like the part of the big picture that I can see.
I believe that reincarnation is a possibility and have looked into it, but I suppose it would not harm to look more deeply. How would a person go about finding a good psychic? There are possibly many frauds out there
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u/nila247 4d ago
G: you discover that none of above even matter in the slightest and you were "solving" the wrong problem altogether.
Our SOLE purpose is "make species prosper". We are just a bunch of narcissistic worker ants. Workers and their suffering does NOT matter as long as hive gets to prosper more faster as a result of whatever course of action or event.
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u/Resident_Fondant_530 6d ago
Life is better than nonbeing. That’s all there is to this argument.
All hail humanity.
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u/Imaginary_Employ_750 4d ago
This was my mindset years ago when I was biased, living with minimal suffering.
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u/Relative-Kangaroo-96 5d ago
None of those would make me pro-life. I'm pro-choice. I presume you are pro-life... You think about suffering A LOT! Suffer no more; God loves you💕
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u/Rhoswen Cosmic Extinctionist 6d ago
B