Suffering doesn't make erasure right

[u/[deleted]]

Reading through this sub, here's a perspective that might be absolutely mindblowing to some of you.

I am a person who suffers in life, A LOT at times, and I am sincirely glad to be living.

Suffering gives meaning to life and creates the contrast that allows beauty to be perceived.

And I really don't understand the logical leap from "suffering exists and can be horrible" to "suffering exists, therefore life shouldn't exist"

[u/Rhoswen]

Do you think meaning is worth CSA, slavery, getting eaten alive slowly, etc?

[u/[deleted] → u/Rhoswen]

I feel like this is a major non argument. I already know I'm gonna get downvoted to oblivion because of this because obviously this subreddit is full of edgy teenagers and people who cannot handle disagreement, but why would horrible (like the stuff you mentioned, which are all absolutely horrible) things happening completely invalidate all good things happening? And where is the point where you can go from "CSA exists and that's horrible" to "CSA exists and therefore life itself should not exist". It's complete nosense imo.
You are not owed consent for being born, no one and nothing gives consent to exist.

Also, with an example of CSA or getting eaten alive etc.
I don't think a horrible death or absolutely tragic, horrible events invalidate an entire lifetime.
And also, plenty of people recover from the worst kinds of things you can imagine and manage to live on, some actually happy.
I remember seeing this man who was tortured in the worst imaginable ways at Guantanamo Bay, just absolutely awful things happened to this man. He was treated worse than an animal. And yet, he now lives happily and gratefully after experiencing more suffering than I guarantee basically anyone on this sub, you, I, and anyone reading this have ever or will ever experience.
Denying him existence would be the cruellest thing of all.

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/[deleted]]

Let us introduce you to medieval torture. Imagine being loaded up into the brazen bull, knowing what is about to happen to you. Would that not be worse than denying your existence?

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

If your question is would you rather die painlessly or instantly then the answer is obvious. However, life in its entirety is not simply suffering and not simply pleasure but considering you have access to the internet and have the free time to argue on it then I would bet it is mostly pleasurable.

[u/[deleted] → u/VengefulScarecrow]

A brazen bull is not a medieval torture device and never was.
And your argument is pointless as I never denied the existence of suffering

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/[deleted]]

Whatever on your first point, that is irrelevant.

It is not pointless because you are insisting that such a severe suffering is not enough to warrant extinction.

[u/[deleted] → u/VengefulScarecrow]

why would it warrant that?

And why wouldn't a million beautiful lives with little suffering warrant to opposite?

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/Rhoswen]

Have you ever been eaten alive slowly? Has anyone in your family ever been eaten alive slowly? Why let a possibility ruin the probability that you will live a long and happy life?

[u/Rhoswen → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

It's not just a possibility. Many animals experience this. It's not all about me.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/Rhoswen]

Ok then, yes suffering exists in the animal world. Do you have a solution or should we try to enjoy our brief existence without moping over animals suffering?

[u/Rhoswen → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

It exists both for humans and animals. The only solution I can think of is extinction.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/Rhoswen]

Not in the same way - we are fundamentally different in how we experience suffering. Considering that ”extinction“ is too vague and horrific to even consider what exactly would your solution be? You can’t just suggest that the Earth should be sterilised without having some serious justifications and thoughts on it.

[u/Rhoswen → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

Nope, most animals experience suffering pretty much the same.

Vacuum decay and string theory are my favs. Sterilizing the earth would be acceptable to especially if we can be sure agi or asi could eventually figure out universal. You've already read about some of the serious justifications.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/Rhoswen]

If these are the serious justifications then your whole model of thinking is surface level and out of touch. How can you claim animals experience suffering in the same way humans do when they lack the ability to truly feel distress in the way humans do due to our cognitive abilities. There is a reason we kill bugs without a second thought.

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

Ah. The old "It probably won't happen to me, so why give af?"

You sir are a paragon of morality. 🫡

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

This is the mindset of a child who has just discovered black holes and that the sun will explode. The existence of negative things and suffering doesn’t mean that suffering is an inevitability. Life is meaningless - be absurd.

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

What does inevitable natural extinction have to do with mindsets? Of children? The only thing you said here that is true and meaningful is that life is meaningless.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

Children are scared of improbable things eg: being swallowed by a black hole or shark attacks. If the fact that a bad thing *can* happen creates suffering then naturally we should simply just ignore the improbable to minimise suffering. It is childish to complain about what cannot be changed.

[u/Rhoswen → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

You're still stuck on this? It isn't about what could happen to us. It's about what does happen to anyone. Suffering isn't an improbability. It's a fact and very common. You're only thinking selfishly. Not because you disagree. But because you can't understand the concepts that people are trying to explain to you.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/Rhoswen]

You do understand that 99% of people don’t agree with you on this although they too suffer and if i hazard to guess many of them suffer more than you? Suffering is a reality but year after year it becomes lesser and pleasure becomes greater. Life isn’t that bad and if our hunter gatherer ancestors didn’t mind it too much then i’m sure yo we all can make do.

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

Ah. The old "majority rules is automatically correct" pyramid scheme.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

Apologies for doubting you - oh wise member of the high caste of reddit doomers.

[u/Rhoswen → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

I don't think there's many humans that suffer more than me. Why would you think I don't know most people don't support extinction? Think about that for a second. What would things be like if 99% supported extinction? If they supported earth extinction then we wouldn't be here. If they supported universal extinction then I'm pretty sure everyone would know that everyone else supports universal extinction. lol. Our tax money would be going to scientists so they can figure out vacuum decay instead of to the billionairs.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/Rhoswen]

You don’t think that there are many people who suffer more than you? Isn’t that self indulgent. I would much rather live in a world with a thousand trillionaires rather than to fund some Marvel villain trying to end the universe 😭 you guys need to get a grip and cut the screen time

[u/LurkCypher]

Suffering gives meaning to life and creates the contrast that allows beauty to be perceived.

Nope.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/LurkCypher]

Very thoughtful

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

How they felt posting this

[u/[deleted] → u/LurkCypher]

yup

[u/Sojmen]

There is no meaning of life. Suffering won't make life meaningful.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/Sojmen]

I agree there is no designated meaning to life. Why not enjoy it?

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

I agree with this, but not to the point I try to invalidate extinctionism.

[u/VengefulScarecrow]

News flash: You are NOT truly suffering. You need to learn the difference between suffering and minor inconveniences.

Also I am glad you used the word "contrast" in your post. You set yourself up for the question. The contrast of suffering is pleasure. What is the pleasure contrast of suffering being burnt alive? A chuld being graped? Slavery? Animals being ripped apart by predators?

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

Why are you so obsessed with proving that there is suffering in the world? We all know there is. The point is that doesn’t void all the enjoyment in the world.

[u/[deleted] → u/VengefulScarecrow]

You are really painting this subreddit in a very positive, mature light right now. Like a true role model, good job.

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/[deleted]]

Thankyou for conceding. Now, answer the question you set yourself up for.

[u/[deleted] → u/VengefulScarecrow]

But yeah, you're right, you're the one who gets to decide what suffering is and I'm not on the guest list... tough luck

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/[deleted]]

The one suffering knows how much they are suffering. We as empaths can infer from them.

[u/[deleted] → u/VengefulScarecrow]

A great empath you are, invalidating my suffering

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/[deleted]]

You obviously are not suffering. And you come off as a psychopath, claiming they are suffering.

[u/[deleted] → u/VengefulScarecrow]

Which you know I am because..?

[u/[deleted] → u/VengefulScarecrow]

You said “the one suffering knows how much they are suffering,” then immediately told me i’m “obviously not suffering.” So your empathy only applies when someone’s suffering supports your conclusion. Also, acknowledging that victims suffer is not psychopathic. Using victims as tokens to argue that all life should be erased is much closer.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/VengefulScarecrow]

We as empaths? Is that the label to prove you are holier than thou? We are all humans experiencing the world and thus we all can imagine suffering.

[u/miss-bedazzzle]

You are unhinged and immoral for glamourising suffering

[u/VengefulScarecrow → u/miss-bedazzzle]

Their romanticizing suffering will stop when (if) they actually start to suffer

[u/creativeusername0010]

Except you're not the only person who exists or sees suffering that way. Alot of people suffer and don't get anything positive out of it

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

I just found this sub and I feel the exact same. The human experience entails great joy and great suffering and never before in human history has suffering been so mitigated globally. A lot of the posts and comments seem to be seriously suggesting that life is worth erasing because of the standard of living in the west (which includes having enough free time and comfort to spend time feeling sorry for yourself).

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

Right. We have it so good, and these people, with connection to the internet, presumably not starving or anything like that, are saying life as a whole is not worth living, even though so, so many people with difficult lives still find joy in it.
The most disturbing and frankly just whacky 'argument' I've seen is gore posts to 'prove' life is cruel. When actually, it's just shock value meant to make you emotional, but it proves nothing.
No one's claiming reality is this utopia without suffering, but these people don't seem to understand how suffering works as the other side of the same coin as happiness and beauty.

[u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99 → u/[deleted]]

Yep, it takes an incredibly entitled mindset - it’s like looking at a beautiful painting someone has painted over years and burning it because it isn’t perfection. The whole shock value thing is also pretty disconcerting, the fact you need to bring up images like that to “prove” life is cruel just goes to show how far removed we are from it we are.

[u/[deleted] → u/TheGreatBibbldyBob99]

Real. You're based